Football Rules and Interpretations

[LKEEL75 2,566]

Thanks @WarTiger!!

[WarTiger 3,901]

Watching a game from last weekend tonight.   Cal vs. BYU.   Scrimmage kick  (PUNT) for BYU.   Receiving team ( CAL) calls for a fair catch. CAL teammate is engaged with a blocker in pursuit and the CAL blocker hits the player that signaled for the fair catch and knocks him down.  Ball is grounded and goes by him where a BYU player catches the ball as it bounces up to him at the 30 yard line.       White hat really screwed up this interpretation.   He gets on the MIC and announces ILLEGAL TOUCHING by the kicking team.     The reality is, NOBODY touched the kick until the BYU player caught it at the CAL 30 yard line.  That's NOT illegal touching    

The announcers ( as usual) were totally lost in what was being called.  They had it totally wrong as they were thinking Kick Catching Interference because all they kept pointing out on the replay was the Cal player hit his own man and its not a penalty.    For those of you following this thread, there's a post earlier where I talk about what constitutes illegal touching.  This was NOT illegal touching it was merely "downing" the ball to end the play.    There was absolutely NO reason at all for the white hat to announce anything in this situation much less call it illegal touching.

[GBAU83 212]

WarTiger,

 In the above example, did they flag it as illegal touching and mark off any penalty distance?  That would really have been bad if not corrected.

[WarTiger 3,901]

Just now, GBAU83 said:

WarTiger,

 In the above example, did they flag it as illegal touching and mark off any penalty distance?  That would really have been bad if not corrected.

No.  Fortunately they knew enough to NOT throw a flag for it or try to mark off a distance penalty.   So, they at least did that right.   

On a side note, I'm really nitpicky when it comes to areas of coverage and CAL just ran a wheel route play that went for a touchdown.  It was a play probably 40 yards or more.   8 man officiating crew on a deep pass/long run, who is responsible for the goal line and signaling touchdown?   Answer the BACKJUDGE.   The side judge and field judge (positions we refer to as DEEP WING official) are supposed to stop around the 3 yard line and NEVER go to the goal line there and the backjudge signals touchdown.   On the play above, the backjudge was 8-9 yards deep in the endzone and the deep win signaled the touchdown at the goal line.    What good is the backjudge doing 8 yards deep in the endzone on a play that ENDS at the goal line?  He shouldn't even be back there ( unless its after the play is over and he's separating players).   Mechanically it was AWFUL and not anything the casual fan is going to notice, but I sure noticed it and it looks bad when you know its not supposed to be done that way.

[oracle79 3,569]

14 hours ago, WarTiger said:

Mechanically it was AWFUL and not anything the casual fan is going to notice, but I sure noticed it and it looks bad when you know its not supposed to be done that way.

Do the different conferences have a guy or guys, that watch/review games and critique the officials and make sure those types of mistakes are addressed and corrected?  Or is it up to the coaches to send in specific plays where they notice an officiating error?

[WarTiger 3,901]

6 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Do the different conferences have a guy or guys, that watch/review games and critique the officials and make sure those types of mistakes are addressed and corrected?  Or is it up to the coaches to send in specific plays where they notice an officiating error?

It's both.  Coaches are typically only going to send in footage of calls they disagree with or things that weren't called that they felt like should have been called.     That is purely a mechanics issue on the part of the crew and its up to the officiating association to address it in a meeting or conference call.     I will say this though.  It's all together possible that this is how that conference does things and they could have been doing it the way they were told too.   There's no mechanics manual (yes there is such a thing) that says to do it the way they did it last night.

[Linayus 676]

Thanks for doing this @WarTiger. I always learn something and it's nice to get clarification on new rule changes.

I watched our offensive highlights against Washington and I saw where they called targeting on the Washington player (McIntosh) but overturned it. Since I didn't get to see it live, I don't know the reasoning behind that. It looked to me like he lowered his head and hit NCM high (just below the neck) while he was defenseless. Probably could've went either way, I guess, but do you happen to know why it was actually overturned?

[WarTiger 3,901]

1 hour ago, Linayus said:

Thanks for doing this @WarTiger. I always learn something and it's nice to get clarification on new rule changes.

I watched our offensive highlights against Washington and I saw where they called targeting on the Washington player (McIntosh) but overturned it. Since I didn't get to see it live, I don't know the reasoning behind that. It looked to me like he lowered his head and hit NCM high (just below the neck) while he was defenseless. Probably could've went either way, I guess, but do you happen to know why it was actually overturned?

I wish I had an answer for that.  It seemed like a really easy call to make and uphold through replay.  I have no idea why they overturned it.  All evidence pointed the opposite way.  With it being a judgement call, its impossible to know what they saw that caused them to overturn the call.

[API 95]

Is "apparent intent" a practical element of targeting?  It would make sense to me if it was. There's a difference between two helmets colliding and spearing someone in the noggin with your own helmet.

[WarTiger 3,901]

1 hour ago, API said:

Is "apparent intent" a practical element of targeting?  It would make sense to me if it was. There's a difference between two helmets colliding and spearing someone in the noggin with your own helmet.

It is to a certain degree.  That's why they have the Crouching and/or launch element as part of targeting. It shows clear intent to deliver the hit rather than playing the ball.     For clarifcation, Spearing isn't just hitting helmet to helmet.  Spearing is any contact delivered by using the crown of the helmet. It doesn't matter where a player hits another.  If he leads with the helmet (for example to the stomach of the opponent) its spearing (well today its part of targeting).   Spearing element has been merged with the targeting foul in the NCAA rule book.

[oracle79 3,569]

I'm starting to think I don't understand the definition of the "crown" of the helmet.  I always thought it was the top of the helmet with all the airholes in it and you probably wind up with a spinal injury.  I think officials are thinking it is the forehead of the helmet where you hit someone and tattoo a reverse "Riddell" across their chest.  Can you clear that up?

[WarTiger 3,901]

17 hours ago, oracle79 said:

I'm starting to think I don't understand the definition of the "crown" of the helmet.  I always thought it was the top of the helmet with all the airholes in it and you probably wind up with a spinal injury.  I think officials are thinking it is the forehead of the helmet where you hit someone and tattoo a reverse "Riddell" across their chest.  Can you clear that up?

Yes. The crown of the helmet is considered from just above the facemask up. 

[oracle79 3,569]

1 hour ago, WarTiger said:

Yes. The crown of the helmet is considered from just above the facemask up. 

Wow. Football has gotten a lot worse than I thought.

[WarTiger 3,901]

16 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Wow. Football has gotten a lot worse than I thought.

I disagree.  During a d3 game 2 weeks ago a player led with the crown of his helmet on a hit.   Carries off on a stretcher and discovered the impact from the hit broke his back.  These hits hage to removed from the game.  

Back many years ago players were taught to put their facemask in the opponents chest and drive through.   But did u know that in high school football its illegal to do this.   Its been illegal in the high school game since before I started officiating. You cant tackle that way and you cant block that way.    Blocking with your facemask is called BUTT BLOCKING.  Tackling with facemask in chest is called FACE TACKLING.  Both are personal foul penalties.  

[oracle79 3,569]

9 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

I disagree.  During a d3 game 2 weeks ago a player led with the crown of his helmet on a hit.   Carries off on a stretcher and discovered the impact from the hit broke his back.  These hits hage to removed from the game.  

Back many years ago players were taught to put their facemask in the opponents chest and drive through.   But did u know that in high school football its illegal to do this.   Its been illegal in the high school game since before I started officiating. You cant tackle that way and you cant block that way.    Blocking with your facemask is called BUTT BLOCKING.  Tackling with facemask in chest is called FACE TACKLING.  Both are personal foul penalties.  

Agree on the first paragraph.  Tackling with the crown by my definition (dropping your head and hitting with the top of the helmet) will result in spinal issues.  That technique has never been taught anywhere at anytime to my knowledge.  In fact coaches have always yelled at players who have done this that the were going to break their necks.

The second paragraph is part of why football is going to slowly fade away as a major sport in America and will be unrecognizable as it is now in 20 years or so.

[triangletiger 1,599]

5 hours ago, WarTiger said:

I disagree.  During a d3 game 2 weeks ago a player led with the crown of his helmet on a hit.   Carries off on a stretcher and discovered the impact from the hit broke his back.  These hits hage to removed from the game.  

Back many years ago players were taught to put their facemask in the opponents chest and drive through.   But did u know that in high school football its illegal to do this.   Its been illegal in the high school game since before I started officiating. You cant tackle that way and you cant block that way.    Blocking with your facemask is called BUTT BLOCKING.  Tackling with facemask in chest is called FACE TACKLING.  Both are personal foul penalties.  

That was how I was taught to tackle in high school back in the '80s

[WarTiger 3,901]

5 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Agree on the first paragraph.  Tackling with the crown by my definition (dropping your head and hitting with the top of the helmet) will result in spinal issues.  That technique has never been taught anywhere at anytime to my knowledge.  In fact coaches have always yelled at players who have done this that the were going to break their necks.

The second paragraph is part of why football is going to slowly fade away as a major sport in America and will be unrecognizable as it is now in 20 years or so.

Except for the fact that your statement has zero foundation.  I started officiating football in the late 80's.  That type of block or tackle has been illegal since I started officiating.   This was illegal LONG before this targeting stuff became an issue.   There are very few casual fans that even know face tackling or butt blocking exists in the book or even has a name, much less is illegal.  Hasn't impacted the game even 0.00001%.  In 30 years of officiating I don't think I've ever seen it called (maybe once).  The only thing we had when I started concerning the crown of the helmet hits was called Spearing.  The game has changed and now it's now bundled into the targeting provision.   Other things may change in the game over the next 10-20 years, but face tackling/butt blocking will have absolutely ZERO to do with any of that.  It's legal in college (although IMO, it shouldn't be).

[Auctoritas 2,828]

I had asked during one of the game threads a while back, and forgot about it.

When a punt goes out of bounds, how do you determine the spot? Is it literally just estimating by one person? All you ever see is a side judge walking up the sidelines, and then doing a weird stopping maneuver as if someone told them "STOP RIGHT THERE!"  I didn't know if there's some science or triangulation or just good old fashioned winging it.

[oracle79 3,569]

3 hours ago, WarTiger said:

That type of block or tackle has been illegal since I started officiating.   This was illegal LONG before this targeting stuff became an issue.   There are very few casual fans that even know face tackling or butt blocking exists in the book or even has a name, much less is illegal.  Hasn't impacted the game even 0.00001%.  In 30 years of officiating I don't think I've ever seen it called (maybe once).

I'll defer to you since I haven't played high school football since 1978.  I've watched a lot since then and seen many face tackles in high school and never seen it called either.  So, if it isn't an issue then you're right, it won't affect the game.

[bigbird 60,518]

10 hours ago, WarTiger said:

I disagree.  During a d3 game 2 weeks ago a player led with the crown of his helmet on a hit.   Carries off on a stretcher and discovered the impact from the hit broke his back.  These hits hage to removed from the game.  

Back many years ago players were taught to put their facemask in the opponents chest and drive through.   But did u know that in high school football its illegal to do this.   Its been illegal in the high school game since before I started officiating. You cant tackle that way and you cant block that way.    Blocking with your facemask is called BUTT BLOCKING.  Tackling with facemask in chest is called FACE TACKLING.  Both are personal foul penalties.  

Really? I've never seen that called. I'd assume that would be a hard one to officiate.

[WarTiger 3,901]

4 hours ago, Auctoritas said:

I had asked during one of the game threads a while back, and forgot about it.

When a punt goes out of bounds, how do you determine the spot? Is it literally just estimating by one person? All you ever see is a side judge walking up the sidelines, and then doing a weird stopping maneuver as if someone told them "STOP RIGHT THERE!"  I didn't know if there's some science or triangulation or just good old fashioned winging it.

The way the mechanics work on a scrimmage kick out of bounds is this:   These will differ based on the level of the game being officiated.  Most high school games are officiated with a 5 man crew.  On a scrimmage kick, the back judge is responsible for the receivers (possession/muff, momentum, etc) and is positioned on the chains side of the field and approx. 3-4 behind the deepest man and about 15 yards wide.  If the kick goes out of bounds in flight on the chains side of the field, the back judge goes down the field further than where the ball went out...raises his arm and walks forward down the sideline  while looking at the white hat.  When he reaches the position where the white hat determined the ball crossed the sideline, the white hat chops his hand and the backjudge marks the spot.      That's the exact mechanics we use.  Why the officiating manual and powers that be thought the white hat (typically a significant distance away) can see that situation, I'll never know, but that's how its done.   The side judge or field judge is looking at the white hat and waiting for him to chop him and that's where the offense will start their series.     That's a mouth full for sure but figured I might as well explain the entire process.  There's no real way to know (most of the time) where the ball precisely crossed the sideline on those.

[WarTiger 3,901]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

Really? I've never seen that called. I'd assume that would be a hard one to officiate.

I believe Texas high schools play under college rules so you wouldn't see this called.  Here's the rule on it from the Federation rule book... I know I've never called it and I don't think I've ever been in a game where a fellow official has called it either. 
 

SECTION 20 HELMET CONTACT – ILLEGAL, TARGETING

ART. 1 . . . Illegal helmet contact is an act of initiating contact with the helmet against an opponent. There are several types of illegal helmet contact:

a. Butt Blocking is an act by any player who initiates contact against an opponent who is not a runner with the front of his helmet.

b. Face Tackling is an act by a defensive player who initiates contact against a runner with the front of his helmet.

c. Spearing is an act by any player who initiates contact against an opponent at the shoulders or below with the crown (top portion) of his helmet.

 

[bigbird 60,518]

7 minutes ago, WarTiger said:

I believe Texas high schools play under college rules so you wouldn't see this called.  

Thought I was slipping. That makes me feel better

[oracle79 3,569]

Let's stick to college or high school situations.  The NFL is completely different

 

[WarTiger 3,901]

New Play:

Play 8: 4th down for the offense. They elect to punt. The receiving team catches the punt at his own 4 yard line 1.) and his momentum takes him into the endzone where he is downed. . 2.) or he catches it standing still and in an effort to avoid a tackler, enters the endzone and is tackled there.

Ruling: In No. 1: The ball is dead and its 1st and 10 for the receiving team at their own 4 yard line. In No. 2: SAFETY.