Video Calls to Recruits

[rockfordpi 91]

I think I vaguely recall the NCAA passing a rule some time back banning the use of webcams for video chat with and video calls to recruits.

Can someone refresh my memory about or point me to where I can find that rule. It seems like this issue came up several years ago.

BTW, I have heard  the story, but for now, I am just looking for a rule that clarifies this issue and not to debate whether or not it is an ethical practice or something that should or should not be done.

[Ed_ 3]

I think I vaguely recall the NCAA passing a rule some time back banning the use of webcams for video chat with and video calls to recruits.

Can someone refresh my memory about or point me to where I can find that rule. It seems like this issue came up several years ago.

BTW, I have heard  the story, but for now, I am just looking for a rule that clarifies this issue and not to debate whether or not it is an ethical practice or something that should or should not be done.

I don't remember them passing a rule against it but I do remember it's what Saban went to after the Saban Rule was passed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3389203

[aucpe 0]

This is dated last year:

Skype is growing in popularity as a social media loophole in the NCAA rule book. Contact via Skype just counts as phone call by the NCAA even though it's essentially videoconferencing

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/football/story/_/id/6871086/social-media-allows-loopholes-ncaa-rules

[milehighfan 1,240]

never ceases to find ways to try and circumvent the rules. And then the ncaa has to catch up to his latest ploy.

[rockfordpi 91]

never ceases to find ways to try and circumvent the rules. And then the ncaa has to catch up to his latest ploy.

Or, all the other schools have to start doing it if it is indeed both legal and effective.

[SuperNova 0]

Today I read about a new ploy Alabama uses to get recruits, some Texas fans where talking on a thread about Saban recruiting loopholes.

Robert Foster the #1 rated WR outta PA is now a bama lean, was considered a Penn State lock. Interesting thing now is that Robert Foster has a attorney now. The reason Robert Foster has an attorney now is because the NCAA can't request any information or exchanges between because it would violate attorney/client privileges. So basically the attorney could hand a recruit cash and the NCAA could do nothing about it.

Anyone heard about this before? This was news to me.

[rockfordpi 91]

Today I read about a new ploy Alabama uses to get recruits, some Texas fans where talking on a thread about Saban recruiting loopholes.

Robert Foster the #1 rated WR outta PA is now a bama lean, was considered a Penn State lock. Interesting thing now is that Robert Foster has a attorney now. The reason Robert Foster has an attorney now is because the NCAA can't request any information or exchanges between because it would violate attorney/client privileges. So basically the attorney could hand a recruit cash and the NCAA could do nothing about it.

Anyone heard about this before? This was news to me.

Now you got it, you are on to something.

I think that has been going on a while. My guess is that most of the high level cheating is handled in a similar way (as opposed to the bumbling booster tales rival fans usually propagate).

I think benefits are also funneled via churches as communication with a minister is also privileged.

It is really a good loophole as the NCAA can't tell a player he can't have an attorney (especially when universities have armies of them).

However, the attorney thing is not perfect. The attorney can't participate in a criminal activity so he has to be careful or he can loose his law license. That is one of the things the were getting at with some of the state laws aimed at agents and boosters.

[dpwspringer 0]

Today I read about a new ploy Alabama uses to get recruits, some Texas fans where talking on a thread about Saban recruiting loopholes.

Robert Foster the #1 rated WR outta PA is now a bama lean, was considered a Penn State lock. Interesting thing now is that Robert Foster has a attorney now. The reason Robert Foster has an attorney now is because the NCAA can't request any information or exchanges between because it would violate attorney/client privileges. So basically the attorney could hand a recruit cash and the NCAA could do nothing about it.

Anyone heard about this before? This was news to me.

Now you got it, you are on to something.

I think that has been going on a while. My guess is that most of the high level cheating is handled in a similar way (as opposed to the bumbling booster tales rival fans usually propagate).

I think benefits are also funneled via churches as communication with a minister is also privileged.

It is really a good loophole as the NCAA can't tell a player he can't have an attorney (especially when universities have armies of them).

However, the attorney thing is not perfect. The attorney can't participate in a criminal activity so he has to be careful or he can loose his law license. That is one of the things the were getting at with some of the state laws aimed at agents and boosters.

I listened to a panel of about 4 discuss college players getting illegal benefits back when the media was accusing Auburn of everything anyone could dream up.  The first three gave the usual yada yada yada responses but the last one said something about like this that summarizes it very well: "How do you stop someone who is willing to give untraceable cash to someone that is willing to accept it?"

[burkepl21345162833 0]

Pretty sure it's not illegal to give a recruit any money. The Attorney/Client privilege is irrelevant because law enforcement isn't involved, it's just the NCAA. The NCAA can't subpoena anyone. No one is legally required to talk to the NCAA. The NCAA however can suspend a player for any reason or bring sanctions against a team.

Not to say that there aren't better ways of paying off recruits than slipping them a few hundreds via a handshake, but not sure how much having a lawyer would accomplish.

[herktiger 0]

"not illegal" = "legal"

You're right if you're talking about it being a violation of state and federal laws, that is unless it crosses the agent laws that are now in place.  However, it could definitely cross into civil liability if an institution were to be penalized for your actions and want to come after you.  And it is certainly "illegal" as far as the rules of the organization that all of these colleges are a part of, the NCAA.  It's just semantics in my opinion to say it is "not illegal" if you consider the outcome if "you" get caught.

[rockfordpi 91]

"not illegal" = "legal"

You're right if you're talking about it being a violation of state and federal laws, that is unless it crosses the agent laws that are now in place.  However, it could definitely cross into civil liability if an institution were to be penalized for your actions and want to come after you.  And it is certainly "illegal" as far as the rules of the organization that all of these colleges are a part of, the NCAA.  It's just semantics in my opinion to say it is "not illegal" if you consider the outcome if "you" get caught.

Illegal is what some controlling government entity says is Illegal. The NCAA can make rules for those who are voluntary members and voluntarily consent to their rules (by becoming a member).  The NCAA rules are no different from the rules the Masons make for their members, Rules Churches Make for their members, Rules NASCAR makes for its members, or rules made by any other private organization.

However, I am not a member of the NCAA and I did not enter into any "social contract" whereby I consented to the NCAA having any authority over me.

Remember, all that is legal may not necessarily be moral and ethical and just because something is illegal, does not mean it is unethical or immoral.

To that end, in my mind, it is NOT necessarily unethical just because someone who is not an NCAA member violates an NCAA rule.

I think it is unethical that the NCAA is set up in such a way that allows coaches to make 10's of millions of dollars off players, and universities can make 100's of millions of dollars off players, and conferences, shoe companies, and TV networks can make BILLIONS of dollars off players, yet it is somehow wrong for player to want/get/expect anything more than a mere scholarship.

Getting paid for the value of ones work an NCAA rule violation: YES.  Illegal? NO, Unethical? depends on the particular situation.

[AUcivE09 582]

All this really boils down to is  playing the part of the PBB. What this bear did back then wasnt illegal or forbidden - just a little dirty and went along with the win at all costs mentality.

During my days in college, I participated in the ASCE and went to our regional conference several times to compete. Rules were handed out for each event. There was one rule that stood out and that was ALWAYS emphasised - "Competitors will observe and follow the Spirit of Competition". This meant that even if you found a loophole that wasnt forbidden, judgement was to be used to determine if the loophole would be "in the Spirit of Competiton". No one was there to regulate whether or not a student used professional help on the professional paper event (these papers were prepared and submitted ahead of the competition by email) - it was up to the individual to determine what path they would take.

I fully beleive AU plays by the "Spirit of Competition" rule. Granted, with the hordes waiting to tear down the gates of JHS at the smell of smoke, our hand may just be forced. It is fairly obvious that after the whole chargers/suits/fl vacation before NSD events that our conterparts to the west dont care to follow the "Spirit of Competition". Weather or not what they are doing is illegal........who cares! We usually beat the cheaters anyway! 

Ill take an army anyday over a team of mercs.

[rockfordpi 91]

All this really boils down to is  playing the part of the PBB. What this bear did back then wasnt illegal or forbidden - just a little dirty and went along with the win at all costs mentality.

During my days in college, I participated in the ASCE and went to our regional conference several times to compete. Rules were handed out for each event. There was one rule that stood out and that was ALWAYS emphasised - "Competitors will observe and follow the Spirit of Competition". This meant that even if you found a loophole that wasnt forbidden, judgement was to be used to determine if the loophole would be "in the Spirit of Competiton". No one was there to regulate whether or not a student used professional help on the professional paper event (these papers were prepared and submitted ahead of the competition by email) - it was up to the individual to determine what path they would take.

I fully beleive AU plays by the "Spirit of Competition" rule. Granted, with the hordes waiting to tear down the gates of JHS at the smell of smoke, our hand may just be forced. It is fairly obvious that after the whole chargers/suits/fl vacation before NSD events that our conterparts to the west dont care to follow the "Spirit of Competition". Weather or not what they are doing is illegal........who cares! We usually beat the cheaters anyway!   

Ill take an army anyday over a team of mercs.

I am sure the NCAA also has "Spirit of Competition" type clauses as well.

However, the chargers/suits/fl vacation before NSD go beyond violating the spririt of competition, they are NCAA violations.

Also, right up there with  "Spirit of Competition" is also something called DUE PROCESS and INOCCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY (by someone other than internet sites of rival fans).

[AUcivE09 582]

Lost you on that last comment Rock

"Also, right up there with  "Spirit of Competition" is also something called DUE PROCESS and INOCCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY (by someone other than internet sites of rival fans)."    Refering to Cam im guessing.

Granted my examples were NCAA violation but I guess I could use the $75k "donation" to dee harts school, or landon collins GF getting a scholarship, or BC being promised he would play RB ....... not illegal - but c'mon man. Video conferencing is just the latest loophole around the "Saban Rule". The guy is damn good at what he does.

[rockfordpi 91]

Lost you on that last comment Rock

"Also, right up there with   "Spirit of Competition" is also something called DUE PROCESS and INOCCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY (by someone other than internet sites of rival fans)."    Refering to Cam im guessing.

Granted my examples were NCAA violation but I guess I could use the $75k "donation" to dee harts school, or landon collins GF getting a scholarship, or BC being promised he would play RB ....... not illegal - but c'mon man. Video conferencing is just the latest loophole around the "Saban Rule". The guy is damn good at what he does.

I agree with most of the examples above. However, I don't really think it violates the "spirit of competition" for a coach to use skype for video phone calls any more than our Tiger Prowl with Stretch Limo violated the spirit of competition.

Granted, maybe there should be rules against both of those, but it is not close to what I call cheating.

At some point, someone said coaches should not use text messaging for recruiting. I am pretty sure at some point someone questioned the use of phones and airplanes for recruiting. (BTW, I do wish they should ban the use of aircraft to recruit).

Also, I am pretty sure we also told BC he could play RB at AU. I think it is common to promise a kid he can play a certain position. However, no school is going to let that guy be on the field during the game in front of someone who is better.  Some schools even promise a kid they will start the fist game (I think UAT did that with Julio).

[AUcivE09 582]

I admit that using skype shouldnt be against the rules but I was just refering to the fact that the little one will find any way possible to get a recruit by circumventing any rule he can. Tiger Prowl was a bit of a stretch. If there was a rule in place that said you cannot use sports/luxury "cars" for recruiting trips and we went around it by using a "limo", then yeah I would have a problem. Chiz had a good idea and it pissed the wrong people off. Notice how he hasnt pulled anything else to get around the tiger prowl problem. saban is getting around a rule that was put in place because of him. But as I said - let him. Just makes kicking uat's butt 28-27 in thier own house that much sweeter! We bring in players that want to be at AU and can play with the best of them - all while remaining in "the spirit of competition".

[keesler 5,934]

Lost you on that last comment Rock

"Also, right up there with   "Spirit of Competition" is also something called DUE PROCESS and INOCCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY (by someone other than internet sites of rival fans)."    Refering to Cam im guessing.

Granted my examples were NCAA violation but I guess I could use the $75k "donation" to dee harts school, or landon collins GF getting a scholarship, or BC being promised he would play RB ....... not illegal - but c'mon man. Video conferencing is just the latest loophole around the "Saban Rule". The guy is damn good at what he does.

IMO if it's not AGAINST the NCAA rules then it can be used by everybody.  And, if our coaches/administration aren't ahead of the curve and doing their level best to recruit "within the NCAA rules" and to get the most exposure for AU, then they aren't doing their jobs.  

College recruiting is a cut throat buisness, and if you aren't willing to do anything and everything withing the NCAA rules to get a top ranked kid, then the guy down the road will get them.  I don't want to see Miles/Saban/Richt/Fisher/Muschamp/Spurrier pull in players that AU needs and wants on our team.  

[rockfordpi 91]

Lost you on that last comment Rock

"Also, right up there with   "Spirit of Competition" is also something called DUE PROCESS and INOCCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY (by someone other than internet sites of rival fans)."    Refering to Cam im guessing.

Granted my examples were NCAA violation but I guess I could use the $75k "donation" to dee harts school, or landon collins GF getting a scholarship, or BC being promised he would play RB ....... not illegal - but c'mon man. Video conferencing is just the latest loophole around the "Saban Rule". The guy is damn good at what he does.

IMO if it's not AGAINST the NCAA rules then it can be used by everybody.  And, if our coaches/administration aren't ahead of the curve and doing their level best to recruit "within the NCAA rules" and to get the most exposure for AU, then they aren't doing their jobs.  

College recruiting is a cut throat buisness, and if you aren't willing to do anything and everything withing the NCAA rules to get a top ranked kid, then the guy down the road will get them.  I don't want to see Miles/Saban/Richt/Fisher/Muschamp/Spurrier pull in players that AU needs and wants on our team.  

I agree with you 100%.

What also bugs me is this rationalizing "Yeah, but they push the rules and we go above and beyond the rules..."  as a an excuse' for another team winning a game or getting a player that we lost. That sounds a lot like Vanderbilt-Speak to me.

Even if NS skyping with a recruit for 90 minutes is pushing the rules, it also shows the hard work he does and the time/effort he puts in to getting the players he wants.

I think our staff does the same and is ahead of the curve in some ways as well.  I am glad they are taking that approach instead of worrying about what other coaches are doing and whining about the rules. We should be (and have been) forward and creative thinking enough to where  the NCAA changes the rules to take away OUR advantage.

Coach Dye once said, we ain't going to win at AU by outsmarting or out recruiting UA, FL, and GA, we are going to win by out working them (BTW, he was not conceding that our recruiting should be ANY LESS than theirs, just that we shouldn't expect to be able to win simply by recruiting better players  year in and year out)