Bill Maher and Brian Levin Discuss Islam

[Aufan59 71]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

That's what happens with god, too.

[homersapien 11,393]

"Survival of the fittest" is commonly misunderstood by detractors of Darwin and evolutionary theory in general. Fitness is a biological term describing an organism's ability to survive and reproduce; not how strong or fast or whatever it is. In that regard, Arnold Schwarzenegger is no more fit than the scrawny Duggar guy in terms of a basic ability to reproduce and survive.

Biologically, the Duggar is right now more fit because he has a ton of offspring with his gene, while Arnold only has a few. Thus the Duggar gene is more likely to be spread. If it is a "weak" gene and leads to his children being weaker than their peers and thus dying or being unable to reproduce, it will be phased out over time. Likewise, if Arnold's gene is "strong" and his children are physically fit and continue to reproduce, his gene may gain more relative expression over time.

As for biological altruism, it is not "good" or "bad". Altruism is simply an animal doing something which benefits another animal's ability to reproduce at a detriment to its own ability to reproduce. Standard altruism is just consciously doing good for another person. Some psychologists argue if there is such a thing as true altruism, as everybody gets some sort of reward from helping another, whether it be monetary or emotional.

Compassion and empathy are higher level functions not found in most other animals, and are not derived by some heavenly being. Chimpanzees and gorillas, as well as several birds, have been shown to exhibit limited ranges of these traits. I am an atheist and I don't find a single need to do right because I feel "God" said to. I do it because bringing happiness to others brings happiness to me. I like to see others happy.

What stops me from murdering people, or raping, or whatever is bad in this world? I don't want to. It's that simple. I suppose if I did want to do those things, I would. But that's no different than the countless Christian, Muslim, or other religious people who do bad things everyday. I choose not to do wrong on my own, not out of fear of an ethereal punishment. To me, saying that one doesn't do those things because "god said don't" is more scary than just admitting you don't want to do those things. You guys can argue where "good" or "bad" comes from, but even most basic animals have figured it out- don't start a problem and you won't have a problem.

That was a very well-stated post. I am only now starting to realize the concept of (intrinsic) "good or bad" is the stumbling block here. I guess I was too focused on responding to specific statements instead of pulling back a little as you did here.

Anyway, thanks for making the effort to compose it.

[homersapien 11,393]

You know, somewhere a long time ago, we debated this very issue.

Essentially those that that pray and see astounding things happen thru praying are seeing what they believe to be a 1-1 correlation.

They see a God that is loving and cares for us and is THE ultimate word in "Justice" in a crazy world.

The Atheist view is a lot harder to defend. I present you with the fact that YOU DO NOT ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN ATHEISM.

1. If you believe in the crap that is Darwinism, that the fittest survive. The next step is...

2. Neitzscheanism: The fittest SHOULD survive, that the survival of the fittest is BEST for everyone and that would make sense, IF YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVED THAT. It is my contention that you really dont.

Let's see if you really do believe it.

Answer these questions:

Why do good?

Why do good to another human?

Why do good in business?

Why do you not actually engage in and encourage others to activities that would actually show and demonstrate that you believe in "Survival of the Fittest.?"

What you will find is some namby pamby BS answer that will sound something like: "Well, if i dont act "good" or do "good" then society will punish me..."

That is THE SINGLE BIGGEST COPEOUT POSITION EVER PUT FORTH BY MAN.

If you actually believe that there is no god. Then what the hell, act like it.

If you actually believe the things you have shown your ass with on here saying, then PLEASE DEMONSTATE that you have the nerve and the gall to stand up to Judeao-Christian norms of society and act like what you say you believe.

If there is no god, then act like it. Lead your life in such a way where you are cowed by the rest of us lesser beings. Societal norms are just an imposition on your ultimately living like you say you should. If the concept of god is just us imposing our weaker than your glorious intellect ways upon you, please feel free to form up a group and go and lead your life like you say you believe.

If there is no god:

Live like it.

Take what you want from the rest of us and live that "Survival of the Fittest" thing.

Get a big gun and live like a King.

Form up a new civilization.

Thow off the chains of us lesser beings.

Dont give me any of this "we as a society have agreed to live this way bs."

Look, we have debated this ad nauseum here.

At the end of the day, i fully believe that your position is 100% total BS.

If you actually believe one word of this crapola you would not be here on a message board.

You would be out living your life on your terms. You dont because you KNOW that your life is complete BS.

You are just a troll on a message board slinging crap against the wall to see what sticks....GOTCHA.

I'm sorry, DKW. You're not making any sense. As a former self-proclaimed atheist myself, I can tell you that morality, decency, understanding, and love for your fellow man are not traits exclusive to the religious. That's a ridiculous notion that only shows your lack of understanding toward atheists.

It shows that you totally evaded my thesis which is my question: Why do good?

Look i made this as simple as i could. i asked one simple three word question.

You answer is?

Remember, i can explain it to you, i cant comprehend it for you...

Why don't you tell us what you think?

This is not a guessing game it's a discussion.

[homersapien 11,393]

Seriously. I don't understand how people can insist the concept of moral values and compassion must arise from a particular religious faith.

First, they are universal human values regardless of culture or specific religious beliefs.

They are? Some cultures used to sacrifice innocent children or virgin women on beds of fire to appease their gods. At various times in history people didn't just own slaves, but believed they were justified in treating them horribly.

So far, you're merely describing things that seems to just be, not why they ought to be that way.

Secondly, it is certainly not difficult to imagine that as people evolved as social groups, such traits emerged as a beneficial selective advantage.

So right and wrong isn't really "right" and "wrong", it's merely things which certain groups deemed to be beneficial to them?

Thirdly, there is a large and growing body of scientific research demonstrating practices such as altruism serving as a selective advantage of other social animals, including insects.

This still doesn't account for why altruism should be followed. Just that for some beings or in some situations, it increases chances of survival...another thing that hasn't been accounted for as to why it is the best end we should strive for.

The idea that we were handed a set of rules by some authority and if you don't believe that, you have no interest in observing those rules is demonstrably false by simple observation.

I didn't say you have no interest in observing them. In fact, I said quite the opposite.

Titan, wow, you are writing the script for this thread. Exactly, if they actually believed one word of this crapola. They wouldnt even bother to be here.

1) They wont answer the question of Why do good?

2) They are seeing that they actually think the highest order of the food chain, ie Educated Man, IS IN ACTUALITY NOTHING BUT A LEMMING FOR SOCIALLY IMPOSED NORMALITY. They really arent thinking men at all. they are nothing more than social lemmings at the top of the food chain.

Wow, the ultimate goal of the random universe is to be...a social lemming.

I'd like to take the opportunity point out the example of DKW's posts as examples of over-the-top rhetoric that greatly exceeds anything I have shown here.

In particular, I'd like to ask Titan how close is he to having his post deleted? And to Weegle: Do you think DKW's posts represent "thoughtful discussion"? Is ...."I can explain it to you, I can't understand it for you".... over-the-top arrogant?

(But I must admit, in the context of this thread, that has got to be the top candidate for "most-ironic-statement-of-the-year" award!)

[4AUsince62 10]

I just can’t wade through 18 pages of debate right now but have a simple question, for those that feel a certain way, is it religion or the thought of intelligent design you have a problem with?

[ToomersRevenge 284]

"Survival of the fittest" is commonly misunderstood by detractors of Darwin and evolutionary theory in general. Fitness is a biological term describing an organism's ability to survive and reproduce; not how strong or fast or whatever it is. In that regard, Arnold Schwarzenegger is no more fit than the scrawny Duggar guy in terms of a basic ability to reproduce and survive.

Biologically, the Duggar is right now more fit because he has a ton of offspring with his gene, while Arnold only has a few. Thus the Duggar gene is more likely to be spread. If it is a "weak" gene and leads to his children being weaker than their peers and thus dying or being unable to reproduce, it will be phased out over time. Likewise, if Arnold's gene is "strong" and his children are physically fit and continue to reproduce, his gene may gain more relative expression over time.

As for biological altruism, it is not "good" or "bad". Altruism is simply an animal doing something which benefits another animal's ability to reproduce at a detriment to its own ability to reproduce. Standard altruism is just consciously doing good for another person. Some psychologists argue if there is such a thing as true altruism, as everybody gets some sort of reward from helping another, whether it be monetary or emotional.

Compassion and empathy are higher level functions not found in most other animals, and are not derived by some heavenly being. Chimpanzees and gorillas, as well as several birds, have been shown to exhibit limited ranges of these traits. I am an atheist and I don't find a single need to do right because I feel "God" said to. I do it because bringing happiness to others brings happiness to me. I like to see others happy.

What stops me from murdering people, or raping, or whatever is bad in this world? I don't want to. It's that simple. I suppose if I did want to do those things, I would. But that's no different than the countless Christian, Muslim, or other religious people who do bad things everyday. I choose not to do wrong on my own, not out of fear of an ethereal punishment. To me, saying that one doesn't do those things because "god said don't" is more scary than just admitting you don't want to do those things. You guys can argue where "good" or "bad" comes from, but even most basic animals have figured it out- don't start a problem and you won't have a problem.

No one was talking about "fitness" here, please pay attention...

Hey we finally have one of these guys actually reading and answering the question.

SO, clarify for me, you do good because why?????

I do good because I want to. It's a corollary to my earlier point that I don't do bad because I don't want to.

On a more philosophical level, I do good because it benefits me. The concept that seems to get thrown around a lot is that if there was no god you could get all of your satisfaction by stealing for money and murdering for fun. But that's an insane concept. Doing bad would mean you are constantly putting yourself in danger of death, incarceration, and social isolation. Doing good garners you social networks through friends, money through opportunities, and all the things associated with that.

To whoever said, "well if you don't believe in god then act like it"...I am. Every atheist is. We don't believe in god. It's not a joke where we just say we don't and then secretly live doing good in fear of offending him. We live our lives like god doesn't exist every moment.

HOME RUN...almost...

So, you do good because you have made the financial or better the "ECONOMIC MAN" decision that it benefits you more to do so?

Well at least we are getting somewhere with this guy. He openly admits that the real reason he doesnt go all Darwin or Neitzsche on folks is that he made the "Economic Man" exchange or deal if you will that Doing Good to others benefits HIM more than going full tilt with Darwin & Neitzsche.

Congrats whoever you are, you have exactly admitted the thing you tried to deny.

You have just admitted here on a public forum that you have accepted the Imposed Social Normative Argument and embraced it.

Kudos on your honesty. And if the New Social Norm was to morph into something different, you would of course do that too because you have ceded the overall guidance of your life to a monolithic unintelligent system guided by the whims and lusts of the crowd. Way to go. You havent achieved man-hood, you have achieved ant-hood in your social structures. You do only what benefits yourself as imposed by the non-thinking collective of social norms. YOU ARE THE BORG.

WTG on the honesty tho... ;-) Sarcasm/off

My whole postulate here is that i do not for one second believe you actually believe one shred of any of this crapola. You can and do hide your deeper meaning of life THAT IS DERIVED FROM HIGHER INTELLECTUAL THOUGHT...IE: FROM GOD. It just makes you seem "hipper" to your social circle if you hide or clothe it in some bogus intellectual hobby that lowers the social embarrassment for you. Remember YOU already established that you will do and act in accordance with what benefits you socially and financially, ;-)

I am not speaking here of RELIGION. I reject religion and the silly IMPOSED rules that benefit the leaders of that religion.

i am speaking of a lifetime of searching that has lead me to a RELATIONSHIP with God where:

i freely admit that i do not have all the answers.

i freely admit that MAN does not have all the answers.

i freely admit that SOCIETY does not have all the answers.

i freely admit that GOVERNMENT does not have all the answers.

i freely admit that EDUCATION does not have all the answers.

i freely admit that MAN'S PHILOSOPHIES do not have all the answers.

ETC...

At age 28, and trying to find something worth believing in, for the rest of my life, i decided to quit trying to reinvent the wheel and started to role model truly happy people. In role modeling those folks, i came to believe that MAN is not the be-all end-all of civilization. In fact mankind is really the antithesis of any real imagined good, left up to his own devices. We wage war, murder, enslave, denigrate, slander, lie, steal, etc and that being Educated Men doesnt stop that at all.(i want you to remember that Nazism was supported by large segments of the Intellectual Elite in America before the war.)

At age 51, i find that my relationship with God strengthens when i die a little more everyday.

i find that as i lifted up my Brothers and Sisters more and more each day, it made better the world better and me better too.

The more i gave to others THRU GOD AND FOR GOD, the happier i was and the better the world was. When i do it that way, it benefits God more, not ME.

Now, sacrificial living is not found outside of a relationship with God. You dont find Mother Theresa's out there giving themselves sacrificially more then the rest of us will ever imagine if they do not have an active relationship outside of themselves. It just doesnt happen on any real scale for any lengthy period of time.

i truly do not think that Man can be happy without realizing his relationship TO THE WORLD, & ITS CREATOR.

Many great thinkers over the years have taught that man is born wanting to know why? We are born wanting to know the reason for our lives, why we are here?

If you REALLY believe that hokus pokus that we are all just the punchline to a cosmic joke that was totally unintended and totally random, then i submit your life cant really have any deeper meaning that consumption and intercourse. Congratulations you are an educated dog.

My thesis is that you really do not believe one word of that crapola. That for the sake of imagined intellectual vanity you are here espousing this silliness and are little more than a Internet Troll.

Have a nice day...really.

That was a very lengthy bunch of BS you just spewed there, based almost entirely in your own warped conjecture which ultimately ignored what I wrote in order to fit your own narrative in; but hey, you seem like a polite crazy person so you just keep doing your thing.

[homersapien 11,393]

I just can’t wade through 18 pages of debate right now but have a simple question, for those that feel a certain way, is it religion or the thought of intelligent design you have a problem with?

Well speaking for myself, I have no problem whatsoever with religion per se'. In fact, I envy people who take comfort in religious faith.

But any religion can become a political threat to freedom, at least if they become large and strong enough. (Just look at the Middle East for example, including Israel.)

"Intelligent design" represents the sort of negative influence that religion can have on society. Not to say that Behe is diabolical, he probably believes it. But it represents a classic example of bending or spinning the evidence to fit a (religious) agenda. Most of it is just outright false, but it's presented very convincingly.

It is not taken seriously by the scientific "establishment". (You know, the same people that are perpetuating the Global Climate Change Hoax. )

[4AUsince62 10]

I just can’t wade through 18 pages of debate right now but have a simple question, for those that feel a certain way, is it religion or the thought of intelligent design you have a problem with?

Well speaking for myself, I have no problem whatsoever with religion per se'. In fact I envy people who take comfort in religious faith.

But any religion can become a political threat to freedom, at least if they become large enough. (Just look at the Middle East for example, including Israel.)

"Intelligent design" on the other hand represents the sort of negative influence that religion can have on society. Not to say that Behe is diabolical. He probably believes it. But it represents a classic example of bending or spinning the evidence to fit a (religious) agenda. Most of it is just outright false, but it's presented very convincingly.

It is not taken seriously by the scientific "establishment". (You know, the same people that are perpetuating the Global Climate Change Hoax. )

Today’s establishment is tomorrow’s history.

[homersapien 11,393]

I have prayed to god plenty. I prayed thanking him for my great life, and asked him to help those that needed to be helped. I prayed with great faith and belief.

After all, everything in my life is because of god, and I pray for him to extend these same blessings to those who aren't blessed. So every night I prayed, every night slowly realizing that the same god who is completely responsible for my great life must also be responsible for everyone else's life. The poor souls I am praying for also have god to thank for their misery.

Then one day you realize you are thanking a god because he made your life great, but he is taking a collective crap on millions of people at the same time. It is like worshiping a king because he spared you from being a slave. You are thankful to the king, yet the king is still an awful person whom you fear but do not respect.

Thanks for the advice, but it is prayer that separated me from god.

Well, it's certainly not hard to make a case for "sociopathic-engineer-with-infinite-capabilities" if your peace-of-mind really requires anthropomorphising your deity.

[homersapien 11,393]

I just can’t wade through 18 pages of debate right now but have a simple question, for those that feel a certain way, is it religion or the thought of intelligent design you have a problem with?

Well speaking for myself, I have no problem whatsoever with religion per se'. In fact I envy people who take comfort in religious faith.

But any religion can become a political threat to freedom, at least if they become large enough. (Just look at the Middle East for example, including Israel.)

"Intelligent design" on the other hand represents the sort of negative influence that religion can have on society. Not to say that Behe is diabolical. He probably believes it. But it represents a classic example of bending or spinning the evidence to fit a (religious) agenda. Most of it is just outright false, but it's presented very convincingly.

It is not taken seriously by the scientific "establishment". (You know, the same people that are perpetuating the Global Climate Change Hoax. )

Today’s establishment is tomorrow’s history.

Can't argue with that. Sometimes, the sooner the better!

[homersapien 11,393]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

Little long for a T-shirt or bumper sticker.

You need to cut it down.

[homersapien 11,393]

Balanced moderation was gone long ago....

I think it started when the talk-radio generation discovered the internet.

[homersapien 11,393]

That was a very lengthy bunch of BS you just spewed there, based almost entirely in your own warped conjecture which ultimately ignored what I wrote in order to fit your own narrative in; but hey, you seem like a polite crazy person so you just keep doing your thing.

Sorry, but I have to take strong issue with that.

I don't think he is polite at all.

[alexava 6,973]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

That's what happens with god, too.

bingo

[japantiger 4,051]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

That's what happens with god, too.

bingo

Not sure I follow the logic

[ToomersRevenge 284]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

That's what happens with god, too.

bingo

Not sure I follow the logic

People who are religious still do good or bad, the definition just changes based on the religion and or what those people decide to interpret their religion to be.

[alexava 6,973]

There are many different denominations within christianity. They dont agree on everything and all claim to be following the same book exactly. Therefore You have to decide what is right and what is wrong and hope god agrees with you.

[DKW 86 7,431]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

Exactly.

You are just making a decision to do as you should under Darwinism/Neitzscheanism or you are just making a decision to follow society norms of the day, whatever that happens to mean at that moment. Deciding to follow Society is almost in every instance just choosing to make a deal with society that you see benefiting you more than not following. So the ultimate meaning of life is to...make deals that benefit you i guess.

[japantiger 4,051]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

That's what happens with god, too.

bingo

Not sure I follow the logic

People who are religious still do good or bad, the definition just changes based on the religion and or what those people decide to interpret their religion to be.

You misinterpreted the statement. It's not that people do good or bad; it's what defines good or bad. God, not people make the definition...otherwise there is no standard. Like taking a test; if I make 80 and you make 81; the standard set by the teacher was 100 based on certain answers to the test....otherwise the grade has no meaning.... I'm reminded of the old cartoon with Satan meeting people in hell...he says "welcome, there's no right or wrong here; just what works for you"...

[DKW 86 7,431]

Okay enough already! Please read the following with a sense of humor.

Wrapping up this crazy thread here hopefully. See if everyone here can grab the obvious that i would think cant be much clearer.

1) I FULLY AGREE WITH MAHER BTW. Liberals like Levin have geared themselves to be so open minded that their brains have fallen out.

As Maher (paraphrased) says: "Defending Islam as not being the religion of death IS just Liberal BS."

2) The Right does this ad naueum as well on numerous issues too.

3) The point of the debate turned into some crazy atheism vs believers thing.

Maher was trying to point out that some of my Brothers on the LEFT are BLINDLY ignoring, all evidence to the contrary, the obvious that much of Islam is indeed the religion of death.That was Maher's point, not mine. But i definitely agree with it.

My point is that i do not believe for one second what some of the "Atheist Trolls" on here are spewing. They are here posting this nonsense that they have spent about 10 seconds thinking about and probably several years being congratulated and patted on the back for some bogus "Intellectual Vanity" AND THAT WAS EXACTLY LIKE WHAT MAHER WAS POINTING OUT. Maher was absolutely picking a fight with the intellectual fly weights out there. These are the folks that were hoping against hope that the Boston Marathon Bombers were angry white males, all evidence to the contrary. I was pointing out that the same "Intellectual Vanity Crowd" also spews the Atheist view while really not willing to fully accept all of what they believe.

It isnt all of the Libs that are guilty of this, but it is the "Liberal Fashionista Crowd." In my older age i am turning more Liberal than i ever thought. i identify more with Bill Clinton, Pat Caddell, Bill Maher, etc i am speaking for/with that crowd now.

The Right Wing Extreme and the Left Wing Extreme are both just nuts and it will benefit the sane in America when we unmask them both for what they are. The Birthers, the Truthers, the Blame Angry White Malers, the Closet Racists that hate Obama for no other reason than he is black...etc

Now add to this extremist hodge-podge the "Liberal Fashionista Crowd" like Levin that deny the obvious for the sake of some "Left Wing Intellectual Vanity." Here on this forum we have the Lefties that have been denying the obvious for 18 pages that Maher is exactly right. We have people that are so caught up in the "Score Keeping" of who got the last gotcha that they cannot see the silliness of their own thinking.

Look, if you really think that we are just the "Random Product of a Random Universe" then there is no reason to not invoke Darwin & Neitzsche. Hell, go full Anarchist, and embrace all the insanity. I submit that "Random Products of a Random Universe" have no intrinsic value and cannot have any intrinsic value. Killing one should not matter to anyone because there is no absolute right or wrong. It is just your opinion versus anothers.

As for myself, i was like you. At one time, God didnt answer me either. CLUE: God sometimes doesnt answer us now, at least in the ways we think He should.

Sometimes the answer is NO!

Sometimes the answer is NOT NOW!

Sometimes the answer is YES!

Sometimes the answer is HERE, HAVE JUST AS YOU WANTED IT! And then we spend years wishing that we had never gotten it! (AMEN!)

It has been my experience that God is a living being WITH, AT TIMES, A VICIOUS SENSE OF HUMOR.

If you are mad at God, fine. Be mad. Take it to Him, believe me, He can handle it.

There is nothing in the pitiful heart of man that He cant handle.

But remember a few things from someone that has been there and done that. i questioned God. i was once very very mad at God.

Thru it all, i now know that God was always there looking ahead and out for me.

God is Love.

He is NOT Freakin Burger King.

You dont get it your way, NOW, exactly as you order it. God doesnt hold court at the drive thru window.

BTW, i do not follow the Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, etc "Prosperity Church" Movement either.

If you want to really challenge me about the Truth of the Big Bang Theory et al, lets do it in email or IM.

Rob doesnt need this anymore on the site.

[ToomersRevenge 284]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

That's what happens with god, too.

bingo

Not sure I follow the logic

People who are religious still do good or bad, the definition just changes based on the religion and or what those people decide to interpret their religion to be.

You misinterpreted the statement. It's not that people do good or bad; it's what defines good or bad. God, not people make the definition...otherwise there is no standard. Like taking a test; if I make 80 and you make 81; the standard set by the teacher was 100 based on certain answers to the test....otherwise the grade has no meaning.... I'm reminded of the old cartoon with Satan meeting people in hell...he says "welcome, there's no right or wrong here; just what works for you"...

How did I misrepresent the statement when you said the exact same thing I did? It's the definition that changes.

You think God defines good or bad. I don't believe in God, therefore I don't believe that "he" defines good or bad. It's not a terrible stretch to determine what basic "good" vs "bad" is. Don't kill, don't steal, don't rape, etc.based on development of civilization. One has to have rules that maintain civil society. The basic rules across every religion and society follow that same pattern.

Homosexuality is only "bad" because your religion said it was. There's no problem running a society or with safety otherwise. It's not a "bad" in itself. So yes, the concept of "good" vs. "bad" does shift, and has shifted between religious definitions and secular definitions across time. To say that the "God-breathed" word of the bible hasn't changed since it was written is just not true. Its all up to interpretation and that has clearly gone in so many different directions based on all the sects out there.

[alexava 6,973]

Without God, their is no good or bad. There's just what you think vs what someone else thinks.

Exactly.

You are just making a decision to do as you should under Darwinism/Neitzscheanism or you are just making a decision to follow society norms of the day, whatever that happens to mean at that moment. Deciding to follow Society is almost in every instance just choosing to make a deal with society that you see benefiting you more than not following. So the ultimate meaning of life is to...make deals that benefit you i guess.

first off I am not without god. I do agree with another poster that I do wish I had the same conviction in church or the bible that some of you more devout Christians do. I know there is god because of certain emotions I feel when I talk about it or hear certain others talk about it. while god might be what is driving my understanding of right or wrong it comes from within my chest. the feelings in my chest certainly don't make me just do what benefits me, not even close. a lot of the more devout Christians I know and some preachers will tell you that you cant force religion on people when it happens for them it happens. I am not a scientist either, but if I am to get all caught up in who is responsible for our being here and have to choose between evolution(which has some pretty dependable research behind it) or genesis which tells that god made man from dirt and woman from a mans rib... I'm sorry but one has logic and one doesn't. that is just me. I in no way would try to convince others they are wrong, like I said I envy them. If you have never read any Thomas Paine, try it. He has some interesting thoughts and also doesn't try to change anyone else's beliefs but was a big proponent to keep religion out of government.

[alexava 6,973]

by the way dkw86, if I do make the leap to get in church IV has to have the best shot to convert me than anyone I could think of at this point. i graduated hs with him. we haven't been close but I always liked and respected him and hear he is a great ambassador for jesus.

[Aufan59 71]

You misinterpreted the statement. It's not that people do good or bad; it's what defines good or bad. God, not people make the definition...otherwise there is no standard. Like taking a test; if I make 80 and you make 81; the standard set by the teacher was 100 based on certain answers to the test....otherwise the grade has no meaning.... I'm reminded of the old cartoon with Satan meeting people in hell...he says "welcome, there's no right or wrong here; just what works for you"...

God defined morality in multiple ways between the old testament and the new testament. He also defined morality differently in the koran.

There is no one standard set by god, it is up to us to figure out which standards to follow.

[DKW 86 7,431]

by the way dkw86, if I do make the leap to get in church IV has to have the best shot to convert me than anyone I could think of at this point. i graduated hs with him. we haven't been close but I always liked and respected him and hear he is a great ambassador for jesus.

+1