Ideal QB Situation

[johnnyAU 3,630]

46 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Telling thing is same mistakes jj makes were the same mistakes sw made at the END of the season against an inferior team that we bowl prepped for. That's why I said very early you better look at the qb coaching. But that weak part of the schedule tricked some of you. 

I think you are tricking yourself if you think JJ's issues had much to do with the D, and not the pressure he was under. However, he is a fine young man and handled adversity with class. I do hope he can regain some pocket presence and shake off an apparent case of they yips, because if he can, he has the best tools of the bunch. 

[Tiger 8,825]

4 hours ago, cole256 said:

I don't agree with that at all, who can scrub even say that? What does this even mean? To constantly make excuses for sw but just say I don't think it would matter with jj is bull. Another thing jj started early in the season while the o line play was miserable. Was it really though? Pass blocking was solid, I don't think JJ's mistakes were from pressure being in his face. Maybe in LSU game, but against UL he was having ample time -- and still threw directly to defenders. I think 1 of his picks were under pressure, but he also had some un-pressured dropped picks. Then while people talked dropped passes, what nobody watched the first two games? Were drops an issue with JJ at QB? Honest question, I only really remember drops being a huge factor in the Arky game. Of course there were a few drops here and there but that Arky game was on a different level. Everything was going fine against Louisville until Drago whiffed that block and that td had to come back then Carl went out and without him and Davis being the corner he is now we had a suspect D after a blazing start Agree here, those things seemed to take the wind out of our sails. And jj wasn't good but everybody was quick to say well Texas a&m he didn't have to do this and that and didn't we play somebody like Idaho? Whoever it was everybody was like it's just Idaho. Surely you aren't suggesting JJ was asked to do as much as he was in, say, the UL game. Maybe his lessened roll was why he was successful vs TAMU. And he did play well against Idaho. But I'm using the same logic here as you use for SW playing against the weaker competition. It lessens the value of the good play.

 

And I argue that particular fcs school led by a qb that we wanted to come here and start, and who's wr's made our db's reevaluate their positions is better or at least close too Kentucky and San Jose st. I mean they are still an fcs school but let's not try to act like they couldn't beat any D1 schools and they were typical Eh, IDK. I think people are overselling them here because we had such a close call. We'll see how they do against LSU this season. They are obviously in the top 2 FCS schools.

Telling thing is same mistakes jj makes were the same mistakes sw made at the END of the season against an inferior team that we bowl prepped for. That's why I said very early you better look at the qb coaching. But that weak part of the schedule tricked some of you. Right. SW looked similar to JJ early in the year during the bowl game. Only difference is one was a junior and one was a freshman. This is all JMO though.

 

My response isn't backing SW, as it seems sometimes you get sucked into thinking any anti-JJ sentiment is pro-SW. I'm just comparing the 2. SW's production against the lower level SEC teams were more encouraging to me than JJ's play, when JJ was asked to operate the entire playbook, against UL, LSU, and Jax St. However, when SW was back on the field against Memphis his play was just as unacceptable as JJ's. But my stance is a bit softer because it was his like 4th or 5th time ever stepping foot on a college football field. 

I think Gus was putting JJ in a position to succeed after SW went down and that was limited to mainly screen passes. Post-Miss St game with SW, Gus felt more comfortable with SW operating a larger chunk of the offense than JJ -- as evidenced by our frustrating screen-pass offense once SW went down, and really that should be the most telling thing we look at IMO. The guy who is working with the QBs every day and has to put his QBs in a position to succeed and build the offense around that.

 

[80Tiger 899]

12 minutes ago, Tiger said:

 

SW was a redshirt freshman. JJ did not redshirt. To compare SW last game of last year to JJ first game of last year, is 1 game of experience difference. So to compare JJ game 1 of year 3 on campus to SW game 13 of year 2 on campus is actually a pretty fair comparison as far as time in the program.

[Tiger 8,825]

12 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

SW was a redshirt freshman. JJ did not redshirt. To compare SW last game of last year to JJ first game of last year, is 1 game of experience difference. So to compare JJ game 1 of year 3 on campus to SW game 13 of year 2 on campus is actually a pretty fair comparison as far as time in the program.

I see what you're saying and while I don't completely disagree with it, I think the literal experience factor must be accounted for. Yes, it was SW's 14th game within the program during game 1 of 2015. But that same logic says it was JJ's 28th game within the program vs UL.

[80Tiger 899]

8 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I see what you're saying and while I don't completely disagree with it, I think the literal experience factor must be accounted for. Yes, it was SW's 14th game within the program during game 1 of 2015. But that same logic says it was JJ's 28th game within the program vs UL.

No, the comparison was bowl game of 2015 vs first game of 2015 so therefore it was SW 26th game in the program. He was at the end of his second year. And I believe it was JJ 27th game in the program. No matter it was 1 games difference in the program.

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 hours ago, cole256 said:

Another thing jj started early in the season while the o line play was miserable.

Really? O line play was the problem? 
 

 

Quote

Everything was going fine against Louisville until Drago whiffed that block and that td had to come back

JJ threw 3 picks before that happened. 

 

Quote

And I argue that particular fcs school led by a qb that we wanted to come here and start

Well, yeah. A big reason for that is that Jeremy had a complete mental breakdown. Another reason is that the guy is a senior and Sean is still only a sophomore with half an injury-riddled season under his belt. That said, I was fully in favor of Jenkins coming. He is definitely legit. Not sure how he made Jeremy throw 2 picks, though.
 

Quote

Telling thing is same mistakes jj makes were the same mistakes sw made at the END of the season 

Yep, Sean threw a really bad pick against Memphis as an injured freshman who hadn't played in 4 games and only had 5 starts before that. This was the other pick. You seemed to imply that JJ was the one dealing with pressure earlier in the season? (Side note: This video makes me feel even better about JR + KJ.)
 

 

[Tiger 8,825]

1 minute ago, 80Tiger said:

No, the comparison was bowl game of 2015 vs first game of 2015 so therefore it was SW 26th game in the program. He was at the end of his second year. And I believe it was JJ 27th game in the program. No matter it was 1 games difference in the program.

My bad I misunderstood. I got you now. My numbers were way off. My day off has been extra kind to me this morning lolol. You're right, but still a RS freshman has so much more room to grow than a true junior -- and the game experience still holds value in terms of in-game confidence etc which IMO does affect one's performance and ability to learn and grow.

 

JJ had started/played majority of a few games all the way back in 2013. SW hadn't been out of a non-contact jersey until this past season. That's the type of difference I was highlighting.

[McLoofus 35,182]

11 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

No, the comparison was bowl game of 2015 vs first game of 2015 so therefore it was SW 26th game in the program. He was at the end of his second year. And I believe it was JJ 27th game in the program. No matter it was 1 games difference in the program.

White was at the end of his first half a year of getting first team reps. He was at the end of his first half a year getting second team reps, too. While Jeremy Johnson was starting the first game of 2014, White wasn't even on the depth chart. Apples to oranges again. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

I'm still trying to figure out why people are using the bowl game as some sort of proof that Sean is bad.  It's a known fact that his foot was not healed by then and it was still hampering his mechanics. It's also pretty telling that, knowing he was still injured, he was chosen as the starter for that game over a completely physically healthy Jeremy.

I've seen zero evidence that a healthy Sean is not hands down a better QB than a mentally hampered Jeremy.  I've also seen that both have the natural ability to be top QBs.  One needs the reps and focus that come with experience and the other needs to get his head right, but either one could come in and light up the field next year.  Gus did say, during the "car wash", that Jeremy has gotten his confidence back.... Who knows what that may lead to.

[Tiger 8,825]

9 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I'm still trying to figure out why people are using the bowl game as some sort of proof that Sean is bad.  It's a known fact that his foot was not healed by then and it was still hampering his mechanics. It's also pretty telling that, knowing he was still injured, he was chosen as the starter for that game over a completely physically healthy Jeremy.

I've seen zero evidence that a healthy Sean is not hands down a better QB than a mentally hampered Jeremy.  I've also seen that both have the natural ability to be top QBs.  One needs the reps and focus that come with experience and the other needs to get his head right, but either one could come in and light up the field next year.  Gus did say, during the "car wash", that Jeremy has gotten his confidence back.... Who knows what that may lead to.

Exactly. Plus the coaches knew SW's legs were not close to healthy but still figured throwing him out there vs UGA when we needed to throw beyond the LOS was a better option than JJ attempting anything past page 2 in the playbook.

[cole256 17,066]

Yes the picks was all about mechanics....i wasn't implying anything about pressure because I don't believe in making excuses because of pressure. But I do believe in if I complain about this with this guy then I complain about this with that guy. Also none of you have anyway possible of knowing how hurt he was against Memphis. After the first pick he ran back chasing the dude without a hitch. 

The difference between me and most of you I think is I bring both qb's within context to make a point. Some of you seem to hear someone criticize sw and then go into the faith in jj stuff. Which is fine, I have more in sw than jj but I don't have any faith from the games I've seen to say we'll be ok. 

Gus said jj was had his confidence back the end of the season last year so that means nothing in my book.

As far as make pretend there is some big discrepancy in their experience...i mean I can't tell you not too but in my eyes that's like skewering stats. I could even make the case that's the problem with jj, he didn't get enough time being scout and playing against the first team defense. 2nd team qb is the worst spot. Never is a team yours. Usually if it is it's on borrowed time

[aujeff11 6,243]

37 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Exactly. Plus the coaches knew SW's legs were not close to healthy but still figured throwing him out there vs UGA when we needed to throw beyond the LOS was a better option than JJ attempting anything past page 2 in the playbook.

I guess Gus was thinking that an injured QB with a decent skill set will provide a better chance to win than a talented QB with no confidence. 

What was interesting was that SW's first pass was on a called roll out lol

[cole256 17,066]

And yes, when the o line can't get a push and you're constantly on third and long it's a problem. I imagine if this happens to sw when he wins the job and we play those two d tackles of Clemson and if we can't run more people will acknowledge it like they did drops later.

And yes there were absolutely drops the first games because duke started off dropping passes. 

But all things said I guess this will be a circle because with every excuse I see a different perspective which in the long run is no different than me saying what I say and somebody seeing an excuse or exception. All I know if I get pissed at jj for throwing into coverage, I'm pissed that sw did the same thing. That's my bottom line. But that's just my individual opinion of course no better than any of you.

Well some of you, I mean if you didn't know practice consisted of spending time with your positional coaches well you probably shouldn't get into details....

[DAG 33,982]

SW injuries had nothing to do with his piss poor passes lol. Good lord. Not to say he wasn't healthy, but in a recruiting thread, I added a video of a couple of throws that SW threw, that was just bad plays from a QB. Nothing more or less. A highschool QB should know you can't throw that pick or throw into triple coverage for that matter.

[McLoofus 35,182]

FWIW, Cole, I think I posted 3 games into 2015 that Duke was the player I was most disappointed in (maybe after Jeremy... don't remember exactly). Not only was he dropping passess, but he was loafing all over the place. Disgraceful performance. And you're absolutely right that he screwed JJ as bad as any WR screwed Sean all season. If I've ever argued that the WRs dropped Sean's passes at a higher rate than they did JJ's, it was on accident b/c I don't believe that at all. I think maybe some folks have that impression just because it factored so heavily into the outcome of the Arkansas game. 

And while I don't think the long TD against Louisville that got called back caused JJ's problems, we definitely agree that it was a huge play that at a minimum made things worse when he really needed something to go right. I really, really want to hop in the DeLorean and go back to make that TD stand and see where our season would have gone from there. 

[80Tiger 899]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

Exactly. Plus the coaches knew SW's legs were not close to healthy but still figured throwing him out there vs UGA when we needed to throw beyond the LOS was a better option than JJ attempting anything past page 2 in the playbook.

In regard to the bowl game looked back at some quotes from Gus that said SW "was close to 100%".

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 minute ago, 80Tiger said:

In regard to the bowl game looked back at some quotes from Gus that said SW "was close to 100%".

Of course he did... What are you going to do, tell the other team that your QB is hobbled?  Numerous people with connections to the program confirmed that he was far from 100% after the game.

[aujeff11 6,243]

1 minute ago, lionheartkc said:

Of course he did... What are you going to do, tell the other team that your QB is hobbled?  Numerous people with connections to the program confirmed that he was far from 100% after the game.

His many mistakes that game were not all due to his injury. Please stop with the excuses.

[AUIH1 1,515]

5 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

In regard to the bowl game looked back at some quotes from Gus that said SW "was close to 100%".

Gus and other coaches have said a lot about injured players that can only be taken with a gallon of salt.  

 

wde

[lionheartkc 6,150]

5 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

If I've ever argued that the WRs dropped Sean's passes at a higher rate than they did JJ's, it was on accident b/c I don't believe that at all. I think maybe some folks have that impression just because it factored so heavily into the outcome of the Arkansas game.

I think the real thing most see is that, even with passes dropped all over the place, Sean still had 3 250+ yard games.  If anyone believes that Jeremy, playing like he was, would have done the same in those three games, I have some ocean front property in Kansas that I will sell you.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

JJ needs three things IMO....

1) confidence (sounds like he has made improvements...we'll see)

2) better pocket presence (I hope most of the issues last year had to do with off season pressure, and a little lack of meaningful playing time behind Marshall...we'll see)

3) toughness (someone needs to remind him that he is 6'6", 250 lbs....He is big enough to be durable and elusive enough to have an impact in the running game or 3rd and short)

He has all the physical tools to be successful. If he has improved significantly in these areas, he gives us the best overall chance, and we can run more of our offense. However, if he can't and SW gets the nod, then I still think we can be successful. The offense would just theoretically look a little different with more of an emphasis on passing and play action runs and a lot less on zone reads.  This is one of the reasons I think Gus put a priority on getting in a stellar WR class. 

None of us knows how this really will play out. Most of us completely failed to predict last season how our offense struggle the entire year. 

Best of luck to all 3 QB's, and surrounding cast in 2016.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

5 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

His many mistakes that game were not all due to his injury. Please stop with the excuses.

Then explain to me why he looked like a completely different player in that game than he did in the 4 games he played totally healthy?  He just magically lost his ability to play?  Don't tell me that Memphis was just that much better than Arkansas, because I'm not buying that.

Yes, some of his mistakes were because he was a red shirt freshman on a big stage, but he didn't play nearly to the level he did in earlier games in the season.

[McLoofus 35,182]

8 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

None of us knows how this really will play out. Most of us completely failed to predict last season how our offense struggle the entire year. 

It was going to be a young and inexperienced team regardless, but our Heisman-caliber QB having the worst 3-game start in the SEC in over a decade, our Heisman-caliber WR becoming terrible at football and life, and our Heisman-caliber RB spending most of the season on the sidelines? Sheesh, no, absolutely not do people predict those things.

Auburn football, man. It's somethin'. 

[DAG 33,982]

11 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Then explain to me why he looked like a completely different player in that game than he did in the 4 games he played totally healthy?  He just magically lost his ability to play?  Don't tell me that Memphis was just that much better than Arkansas, because I'm not buying that.

Yes, some of his mistakes were because he was a red shirt freshman on a big stage, but he didn't play nearly to the level he did in earlier games in the season.

 

What does being an RS freshman have to do with just throwing the ball right into a defenders hands or triple coverage? Those are just bad passes. I have seen true freshman last year, come into games and not make some of those passes. 

[80Tiger 899]

23 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Of course he did... What are you going to do, tell the other team that your QB is hobbled?  Numerous people with connections to the program confirmed that he was far from 100% after the game.

Who? I  mean Gus is head coach, so that would qualify as connected to the program.