Ideal QB Situation

[yesmartap 9]

Something I’ve been thinking about for a while, and was reminded again when CGM brought it up at the SEC media days, is the statement he made that “…we didn’t execute last year.”  I’ve seen many comments about the QB and WR’s failures, but it seems to me that until you get a picture of the entire team’s performance, per player, on every play, you won’t truly know what the root cause or failure mechanism on any particular play can be attributed to.

 

Every play is designed to score a touchdown and if it doesn’t, why not? Many potential failure mechanisms, i.e., blown assignment, wrong play call for the defense set (does the coach get graded on what play was called vs the right play call?), physical mismatch between offense and defense players, etc.  Does anyone have access to how all the players grade out on every play?  Is that info even available to the board?  This also could be a testament to what Stat preaches about the lack of experience, especially last year, in that if too many mistakes were made by everyone due to this inexperience, and especially on a critical play, the team play won’t be successful.

 

Another thing to use the grades for is to determine the timing of the mistakes.  All is takes in one mistake at wrong time to kill a drive, create a turnover, commit a penalty, or any other negative play.  Absolutely some to the mistakes can be pointed back to lack of coaching, but, once the players get on the field they have to execute, and if they don’t, can that be put on the coaches.  I’m not trying to promote or defend any position here, just pointing out the fact that unless you get the data for every player on every play, do you know where the problem lies, and can you really correct a problem you may not know about?

 

Think about this for a minute, and I’m guessing here, but let’s use 20 offensive players that are utilized per game due to substitutions, and each of those players makes one mistake, only one.  That’s 20 mistakes out of about 60-70 plays, or about 30%.  That’s not a very inspirational success rate, and if some of those players make more than one mistake the success rate is even worse.

So, going back to the original statement, if everyone doesn’t execute the play as planned, every time, that play more than likely won’t be successful.

 

I know there are some coaches on here that have a hell of a lot more knowledge in this area than me that can shed some light on this. 

 

Just food for thought.

[weagl1 1,784]

There is an old saying that if you have 3 that are equal that means you don't have a good one.  Clearly, no one stepped up in the spring and took control.  The best thing that can happen when fall practice begins is for one of them to step up and become the clear leader.  Otherwise, if we go into the first game without things being settled it does not bode well for the rest of the season.  

[DAG 33,982]

32 minutes ago, weagl1 said:

There is an old saying that if you have 3 that are equal that means you don't have a good one.  Clearly, no one stepped up in the spring and took control.  The best thing that can happen when fall practice begins is for one of them to step up and become the clear leader.  Otherwise, if we go into the first game without things being settled it does not bode well for the rest of the season.  

 

Thank you. Yes, it was an unfortunate set of events that SW had to step in and play last year. However, that has nothing to do with last spring or the upcoming fall. At this point, one of the two, JJ or SW, should have had the QB position solidified. Now, we have JF3 in the mix, who is just truly a band-aid on a gunshot wound. There is literally no reason why we should have question marks at the QB position, particularly since JF3 is learning on the fly and will not be your prototypical QB.

[DAG 33,982]

4 hours ago, aujeff11 said:

I'm not buying the inexperienced offense excuse. Will this year look that much different on the offensive side? He threw the ball for 250 three games in a row so we had playmakers. He just got sloppy in the red zone and the coaches decided to cut him off in the Redzone.

 

I think SW has a lot of potential but let's call a spade, a spade. He was injured last year but some of those throws, particularly the Memphis game. Was he injured during the A-day? He was still turnover prone during that scrimmage. Maybe I am a harsh critic, but I just feel that at this junction, one of the two highly recruited pocket passers should have the starting position wrapped up. JF3 is a temporary solution to a much bigger problem.

[80Tiger 899]

19 minutes ago, DAG said:

I think SW has a lot of potential but let's call a spade, a spade. He was injured last year but some of those throws, particularly the Memphis game. Was he injured during the A-day? He was still turnover prone during that scrimmage. Maybe I am a harsh critic, but I just feel that at this junction, one of the two highly recruited pocket passers should have the starting position wrapped up. JF3 is a temporary solution to a much bigger problem.

I have been suggesting our current QB talent is avg. You mention our two "highly recruited" pocket passers. Lets look at that. According to ESPN recruiting JJ had offers from AU, Ole Miss, AL State, Arky State, Houston, LSU, Memphis, and Purdue. SW had offers from AU, BC, Cincy, Hawaii, Florida Int., Kent State, Miami OH, Toledo, Wake Forest, and WV.

While all admirable schools neither of the lists are earth shattering. JJ had 3 SEC offers and the rest were 2nd tier schools. SW had no SEC offers and no other tier 1 type schools. So lets not get carried away with "highly recruited". They were not. JJ more so than SW. I would imagine that JJ's LSU offer was contingent on who else they signed that year. I believe some schools saw JJ as a potential D1 QB but doesn't look like "everyone" wanted him. SW had no offers from year in/year out contenders except AU. He was a fall back after we missed on a couple of other guys. I am just saying that most schools did not see either of this guys as have to have. I also believe that if you could do trades in college football that no one would be beating AU door down to trade for these guys. My point being is that we need an upgrade at QB. I don't know if JF3 is an upgrade or not but he is here for a reason.

[DAG 33,982]

20 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

I have been suggesting our current QB talent is avg. You mention our two "highly recruited" pocket passers. Lets look at that. According to ESPN recruiting JJ had offers from AU, Ole Miss, AL State, Arky State, Houston, LSU, Memphis, and Purdue. SW had offers from AU, BC, Cincy, Hawaii, Florida Int., Kent State, Miami OH, Toledo, Wake Forest, and WV.

While all admirable schools neither of the lists are earth shattering. JJ had 3 SEC offers and the rest were 2nd tier schools. SW had no SEC offers and no other tier 1 type schools. So lets not get carried away with "highly recruited". They were not. JJ more so than SW. I would imagine that JJ's LSU offer was contingent on who else they signed that year. I believe some schools saw JJ as a potential D1 QB but doesn't look like "everyone" wanted him. SW had no offers from year in/year out contenders except AU. He was a fall back after we missed on a couple of other guys. I am just saying that most schools did not see either of this guys as have to have. I also believe that if you could do trades in college football that no one would be beating AU door down to trade for these guys. My point being is that we need an upgrade at QB. I don't know if JF3 is an upgrade or not but he is here for a reason.

 

 

Very substantial data for your suggestion. I hope you are ready for what's to come for you suggesting this.

[Barnacle 9,064]

15 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

I have been suggesting our current QB talent is avg. You mention our two "highly recruited" pocket passers. Lets look at that. According to ESPN recruiting JJ had offers from AU, Ole Miss, AL State, Arky State, Houston, LSU, Memphis, and Purdue. SW had offers from AU, BC, Cincy, Hawaii, Florida Int., Kent State, Miami OH, Toledo, Wake Forest, and WV.

While all admirable schools neither of the lists are earth shattering. JJ had 3 SEC offers and the rest were 2nd tier schools. SW had no SEC offers and no other tier 1 type schools. So lets not get carried away with "highly recruited". They were not. JJ more so than SW. I would imagine that JJ's LSU offer was contingent on who else they signed that year. I believe some schools saw JJ as a potential D1 QB but doesn't look like "everyone" wanted him. SW had no offers from year in/year out contenders except AU. He was a fall back after we missed on a couple of other guys. I am just saying that most schools did not see either of this guys as have to have. I also believe that if you could do trades in college football that no one would be beating AU door down to trade for these guys. My point being is that we need an upgrade at QB. I don't know if JF3 is an upgrade or not but he is here for a reason.

This is an interesting post. I had no idea Sean had so few offers from big time programs.

[aujeff11 6,243]

18 minutes ago, 80Tiger said:

I have been suggesting our current QB talent is avg. You mention our two "highly recruited" pocket passers. Lets look at that. According to ESPN recruiting JJ had offers from AU, Ole Miss, AL State, Arky State, Houston, LSU, Memphis, and Purdue. SW had offers from AU, BC, Cincy, Hawaii, Florida Int., Kent State, Miami OH, Toledo, Wake Forest, and WV.

While all admirable schools neither of the lists are earth shattering. JJ had 3 SEC offers and the rest were 2nd tier schools. SW had no SEC offers and no other tier 1 type schools. So lets not get carried away with "highly recruited". They were not. JJ more so than SW. I would imagine that JJ's LSU offer was contingent on who else they signed that year. I believe some schools saw JJ as a potential D1 QB but doesn't look like "everyone" wanted him. SW had no offers from year in/year out contenders except AU. He was a fall back after we missed on a couple of other guys. I am just saying that most schools did not see either of this guys as have to have. I also believe that if you could do trades in college football that no one would be beating AU door down to trade for these guys. My point being is that we need an upgrade at QB. I don't know if JF3 is an upgrade or not but he is here for a reason.

Well said.

[AUwent 3,748]

...So what's there to be excited about on offense? If our OL is a problem this year, then expect it to be a problem for years to come. With regards to "stopping the bleeding until Gatewood arrives" you have to figure that Barrett will be ready before Gatewood is. If it takes till Gatewood to arrive then Gus will not survive till then.

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

7 hours ago, Tiger said:

Devil's advocate here....what if JJ has a Jason Campbell-like turnaround to close out his career? I know Campbell had Borges leading the way so he got (yet another) fresh start. But nobody thought he would turn from a game manager to a QB that would be an actual leading force to guide us to wins based on his prior work. 

What if Gus does in fact stop being a CEO type coach and snatches the reigns back from Lashlee? What if that actually was the problem? Could that even make sense as Gus probably would've tried to take more control of the offense at least half-way through the year once it was clear we were sputtering? 

Leading in to last season, we had a lot of "if ____ can step up we will be very good". It is safe to say a lot of those "ifs" did not fall in our favor. Do we have more "ifs" going into this season than last? 

 

Also, what are our experience numbers going to look like for this season? Last year Stat Tiger warned us about how inexperienced we were all over the board with his breakdown of returning players with a certain amount of experience. This stat is one of the most telling signs of how a team will do IMO -- especially in the SEC. It is easier to make a run with inexperience in other conferences (Clemson/Ohio State). I hope our numbers are more favorable this season, though.

 

6 hours ago, aujeff11 said:

I'm not buying the inexperienced offense excuse. Will this year look that much different on the offensive side? He threw the ball for 250 three games in a row so we had playmakers. He just got sloppy in the red zone and the coaches decided to cut him off in the Redzone.

Agree. 1 TD pass isn't all on the WRs. 

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

7 hours ago, McLoofus said:

Hope I heard wrong. We shall see. But it might be a deal where he gets passed by younger guys with equal or superior physical tools, but with more talent/drive/whatever.

Also, I just reread my long post, and boy was I trying to sound more knowledgeable than I really am. A few facts supported by way too many opinions, instead of the other way around...

I fully expected one of the young guys to pass him. Has a lot of talent but so inconsistent. 

[cole256 17,065]

The last 7 posts??? I don't know how you guys did it, and not get ambushed by the board. But yeah I've said those things before in the past lol

[80Tiger 899]

9 hours ago, cole256 said:

The last 7 posts??? I don't know how you guys did it, and not get ambushed by the board. But yeah I've said those things before in the past lol

I know. I was waiting to be banned (just kidding). All good fun here. And yes I have read where you have been one that has what I call tempered expectations of our current QB situation. 

[Randman5000 4,228]

On 7/13/2016 at 2:24 PM, 80Tiger said:

I guess I can see it, but can you imagine the outcry that whoever the starter is and they are doing well and then all of sudden you change QB's just to make sure a certain package is played. People tend to go nuts and rightfully so. No matter the outcome. If the starter is doing better, the coaches killed his momentum. If the second guy does better, then why wasn't he starting in the first place. Two QB's usually result in no QBs. No win for coaches, the QB's and the team. It may happen and all be good, but history doesn't seem to support it.

completely agree. We saw it last year...offense would move the ball and then the play calling would ruin the momentum by bringing in different packages, and personnel. 

Regardless of who is qb, if we can't pass the ball then we are screwed. So far the one had been White. Unless JJ magically turns into a SEC qb over night.. defenses are going to be ready to stop the run all year.

The offensive line better be ready. They'll be key. So will the pass.

[80Tiger 899]

1 hour ago, Randman5000 said:

completely agree. We saw it last year...offense would move the ball and then the play calling would ruin the momentum by bringing in different packages, and personnel. 

Regardless of who is qb, if we can't pass the ball then we are screwed. So far the one had been White. Unless JJ magically turns into a SEC qb over night.. defenses are going to be ready to stop the run all year.

The offensive line better be ready. They'll be key. So will the pass.

You know that JJ had a higher QB rating and higher completion percent last year than SW. SW threw for about 100 yds more for the season. Both performed at about the same level. 

[cole256 17,065]

9 hours ago, 80Tiger said:

I know. I was waiting to be banned (just kidding). All good fun here. And yes I have read where you have been one that has what I call tempered expectations of our current QB situation. 

My new thing that's funny as hell to me is the if sw does bad it will be because the wr's weren't doing their job....the other qb's it's on them though

[Randman5000 4,228]

1 hour ago, 80Tiger said:

You know that JJ had a higher QB rating and higher completion percent last year than SW. SW threw for about 100 yds more for the season. Both performed at about the same level. 

Yeah. We held our breaths every time JJ threw the ball though And We weren't expecting Sean White to win the SEC for us though. Without a decent qb...no wonder we are expected to be fifth, sixth in SEC West 

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

My new thing that's funny as hell to me is the if sw does bad it will be because the wr's weren't doing their job....the other qb's it's on them though

Never have I seen anyone ever blame Jeremy Johnson's poor play on the receivers. And I don't think I've seen people place the sole burden of Sean White's play on the receivers either. Sometimes I can't tell who you are talking about with quotes like the one above. I think people like me are only arguing to the "Sean White only threw one touchdown pass and is therefore a bad quarterback" crowd to look at last season in its aggregate. For the record, I definitely do not include you in that crowd, Cole. To the others, at least consider how other positions and circumstances affected the offense as a whole, including the quarterback position. Sean deserves the full responsibility for mental errors that he made last season, just as much as Jeremy deserves for his mental errors. But, in my opinion nothing was going to save Jeremy from himself last year. I don't know that Michael Irvin could have helped Jeremy last year. My point is, Sean would have benefited more from better circumstances than Jeremy would have. That's really what it comes down to. Sean's youth and mental errors limited him last year. Jeremy's straight up prevented him from playing well at all. If we had two viable quarterbacks returning from last season, I would comment all day long about how they are going to need better support this year/could have benefited from more support last year. The problem is, I don't think Jeremy is viable in the least. As a result, when I talk about offensive deficiencies outside of the quarterback position, I generally talk about them in the context of Sean - because he's the only viable returning quarterback. 

1 hour ago, 80Tiger said:

You know that JJ had a higher QB rating and higher completion percent last year than SW. SW threw for about 100 yds more for the season. Both performed at about the same level. P

Perfect example. Again, one of these quarterbacks is battling for the starting job. The other is languishing as a 3rd string (according to those who know more than I do). If we looked at that statistic alone, it would be difficult for anyone to justify that disparity. You can't just point to the stats and say, "See! They both suck. Why does everyone only talk about how much Jeremy sucks, but not Sean!?" The answer is because one is a viable option at quarterback. The other is a total liability. You won't find the reason why that is in the statistic you posted. 

I'm not saying Sean is the answer. I just don't have any reason to talk about our offense in the context Jeremy Johnson, who probably won't see a snap as the starting quarterback. So, if I talk about what could have helped Sean last year or what could help him this year, its because he's the one returning guy who actually would be affected by it. 

[cole256 17,065]

SW might be decent, actually he is at least decent right now against suck teams. But he may be great against whoever we don't know yet because he didn't play against anybody. 

It's so uncertain who knows? IMO jj looked better his second year than sw looked his second year (both against suck teams) but looked how bad jj looked his third year. He actually regressed. Who knows how they are going to handle pressure against the big boys?

[Barnacle 9,064]

Just now, cole256 said:

SW might be decent, actually he is at least decent right now against suck teams. But he may be great against whoever we don't know yet because he didn't play against anybody. 

It's so uncertain who knows? IMO jj looked better his second year than sw looked his second year (both against suck teams) but looked how bad jj looked his third year. He actually regressed. Who knows how they are going to handle pressure against the big boys?

I agree with you 100% here

[cole256 17,065]

14 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Never have I seen anyone ever blame Jeremy Johnson's poor play on the receivers. And I don't think I've seen people place the sole burden of Sean White's play on the receivers either. Sometimes I can't tell who you are talking about with quotes like the one above. I think people like me are only arguing to the "Sean White only threw one touchdown pass and is therefore a bad quarterback" crowd to look at last season in its aggregate. For the record, I definitely do not include you in that crowd, Cole. To the others, at least consider how other positions and circumstances affected the offense as a whole, including the quarterback position. Sean deserves the full responsibility for mental errors that he made last season, just as much as Jeremy deserves for his mental errors. But, in my opinion nothing was going to save Jeremy from himself last year. I don't know that Michael Irvin could have helped Jeremy last year. My point is, Sean would have benefited more from better circumstances than Jeremy would have. That's really what it comes down to. Sean's youth and mental errors limited him last year. Jeremy's straight up prevented him from playing well at all. If we had two viable quarterbacks returning from last season, I would comment all day long about how they are going to need better support this year/could have benefited from more support last year. The problem is, I don't think Jeremy is viable in the least. As a result, when I talk about offensive deficiencies outside of the quarterback position, I generally talk about them in the context of Sean - because he's the only viable returning quarterback. 

Perfect example. Again, one of these quarterbacks is battling for the starting job. The other is languishing as a 3rd string (according to those who know more than I do). If we looked at that statistic alone, it would be difficult for anyone to justify that disparity. You can't just point to the stats and say, "See! They both suck. Why does everyone only talk about how much Jeremy sucks, but not Sean!?" The answer is because one is a viable option at quarterback. The other is a total liability. You won't find the reason why that is in the statistic you posted. 

I'm not saying Sean is the answer. I just don't have any reason to talk about our offense in the context Jeremy Johnson, who probably won't see a snap as the starting quarterback. So, if I talk about what could have helped Sean last year or what could help him this year, its because he's the one returning guy who actually would be affected by it. 

You're right you've never seen them blame wr as far as jj, but if you haven't seen them blame wr for sw then you haven't been reading this board in it's entirety. As far as viable qb you're judging jj against Louisville, lsu, and bammer and judging sw off of arky, Kentucky and San Jose st....and yes you're right about the third string stuff as proof, but we can't overlook the proof that if it's really only one viable qb between the two then why didn't he ever separate himself? I feel like that's a viable question. It should've been the easiest win in history of a qb competition. Only two things I can come up with us either jj isn't as bad as some say (and we've seen him be pretty damn bad with our own eyes) or sw isn't as good as some make him out to be. Those are the only two scenarios, one or the other

[Barnacle 9,064]

9 minutes ago, cole256 said:

You're right you've never seen them blame wr as far as jj, but if you haven't seen them blame wr for sw then you haven't been reading this board in it's entirety. As far as viable qb you're judging jj against Louisville, lsu, and bammer and judging sw off of arky, Kentucky and San Jose st....and yes you're right about the third string stuff as proof, but we can't overlook the proof that if it's really only one viable qb between the two then why didn't he ever separate himself? I feel like that's a viable question. It should've been the easiest win in history of a qb competition. Only two things I can come up with us either jj isn't as bad as some say (and we've seen him be pretty damn bad with our own eyes) or sw isn't as good as some make him out to be. Those are the only two scenarios, one or the other

I think it's becoming more and more apparent that Sean White isn't as good as some make him out to be. I include myself in that group. I still cringe when I think that I compared him to Chad Kelly. I do think Sean was on his way to separating himself before the injury. That's just the way I saw it.

You are right about opponents though. I definitely think that's worthy of discussion. And, it peaks my curiosity. 

[AUwent 3,748]

^Seriously, was Marshall a rabbit's foot?

Can we talk about reasons to get excited about our offense?

[DAG 33,982]

9 minutes ago, AUwent said:

^Seriously, was Marshall a rabbit's foot?

Can we talk about reasons to get excited about our offense?

 

You can always start it, instead of disrupting a constructive discussion. NM has nothing to do with anything, btw. 

[AUwent 3,748]

^ It was a joke, since we seem cursed at QB.