Charlottesville: Race and Terror – VICE News

[AUDub 11,158]

2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Thanks for your opinion. 

You're welcome for the context.

2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

It does. It actually made sense to Homer as well. Maybe he can think for himself after all?

I asked you, who had the moral high ground among the major powers?

[AUbritt 611]

You guys have more patience for this than I do. I think I have my answer, in any case.

[Strychnine 1,802]

Just now, AUbritt said:

You guys have more patience for this than I do. I think I have my answer, in any case.

 

This display of patience is unusual for BB.

[homersapien 11,395]

22 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

It's just as much within the realm of possibility. 

No, it's not.

[aujeff11 6,243]

13 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

You're welcome for the context.

I asked you, who had the moral high ground among the major powers?

Thanks for your opinionated context.

Germany, Japan, and the USA didn't have the moral highground. Maybe one is higher than the other,  other countries didn't commit war crimes...

[aujeff11 6,243]

8 minutes ago, Strychnine said:

 

This display of patience is unusual for BB.

He's been flustered the last hour. 

[AUDub 11,158]

One of the crucial things that we need to remember is to place events and opinions in the context of their time. While World War II may have only been very recent, the context of total war, a total war so incredibly destructive, really removes the ability to approach the events of the war with any current social context.

Were the Allied bombings of Germany and Japan atrocities? Yes, undoubtedly so. Would they fit the definition of war crimes today, or even at the time? Yes, undoubtedly so. Did they inflict a massive amount of pain and suffering, primarily on civilians (including complete innocents, like imported foreign laborers, young children)? Yes, undoubtedly so.

But if you accept that the Holocaust, the prospect of a Third Reich covering Europe or Japan exterminating their neighbors was a greater evil (and there can be no doubt that it was), then you enter a sort of moral twilight zone. Every bomb you don't drop makes them stronger. Every city you don't flatten improves their military strength. Every laborer or farmer you don't kill results in tangible amounts of deaths for Allied soldiers and civilians

These bombings are completely indefensible outside of the context of World War II, as are most acts of war. Within the context of total war, especially one against three regimes that are responsible for the brutal murders of millions of innocents with little to no provocation, acts like the bombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Rome, Tokyo, Hiroshima or Nagasaki start to make a perverse kind of sense, and are in fact, entirely logical. That's a testament to how ****** up the war was.

In total war, there are really no easy moral choices.

[AUDub 11,158]

3 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Germany, Japan, and the USA didn't have the moral highground. Maybe one is higher than the other, but some countries didn't commit war crimes...

All of the major powers committed war crimes. Only one of us had the moral high ground unless they are equivalent. Out with it or walk it back.

[aujeff11 6,243]

2 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Were the Allied bombings of Germany and Japan atrocities? Yes, undoubtedly so. Would they fit the definition of war crimes today, or even at the time? Yes, undoubtedly so. Did they inflict a massive amount of pain and suffering, primarily on civilians (including complete innocents, like imported foreign laborers, young children)? Yes, undoubtedly so.

That's all I need to hear. They'd fit the definition of war crimes back then as well FYI.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Ben, can you recommend any good books for someone who broadly wants to better understand WWII? I'm assuming by your posts in this thread, that you are the person to ask. 

[homersapien 11,395]

1 minute ago, aujeff11 said:

That's all I need to hear. They'd fit the definition of war crimes back then as well FYI.

Good!  You kicked our ass!

Now go away.

[aujeff11 6,243]

3 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

All of the major powers committed war crimes. Only one of us had the moral high ground unless they are equivalent. Out with it or walk it back.

So you're going to compare whatever Britain did to nuking countries into oblivion and concentration camps? That's so like you. 

[AUDub 11,158]

15 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

So you're going to compare whatever Britain did to nuking countries into oblivion and concentration camps? That's so like you. 

Um, Bomber Harris was basically the British version of LeMay. RAF crews knew him as "Butcher" Harris.

Britain (and we participated!) killed 10s of thousands of civilians in the course of firebombing Dresden and Hamburg. The Brits even refer to Hamburg as the Hiroshima of Germany . Face it. They committed war crimes. There generally are no innocents in a total war.

[AUDub 11,158]

25 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Ben, can you recommend any good books for someone who broadly wants to better understand WWII? I'm assuming by your posts in this thread, that you are the person to ask. 

Starting points! There are a lot.

For a general overview, The Second World War by John Keegan and is a good starting point and The Third Reich at War by Richard J. Evans

For the Western theater, The Second World War in the West by Charles Messenger

For the Pacific theater, Sea of Thunder - Four Commanders and the Last Great Naval Campaign 1941-1945 by Evan Thomas (this was a rec from Homer a few years back, and it's a great read.), The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors by James D. Hornfischer, War without Mercy by John Dower and The Pacific War by Saburo Ienaga for a Japanese perspective.

[DKW 86 7,431]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

So, bottom line, "alt left" as a self-identifying entity doesn't exist.  It's a term of your own devising.

So accordingly, using the term "alt left" in a discussion is somewhat misleading and presumptous to the reader.  (Which is why I asked who exactly it referred to.) 

Incidently, I don't disagree with anything you wrote substantively.

Well, after googling for about a half hour I had to amply apply some CYA ointment, tuck my tail, duck my head, and respond anyway. But I did answer your question...

[aujeff11 6,243]

25 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Britain (and we participated!

Right. We firebombed and nuked and ran concentration camps. 

[aujeff11 6,243]

One more book for BigBen, Homer, and Britt to read over and digest. 

 

[AUDub 11,158]

Just now, aujeff11 said:

Right. We firebombed and nuked and ran concentration camps. 

You are just a peach.

Are you aware Churchill used the war as cover to institute an Imperial policy in India to clamp down on resistance to the Raj? For getting so much admiration these days, instituting a policy that killed around 2,000,000 sure didn't dent him.

[AUDub 11,158]

Oh, and we weren't the only ones to round folks up. 

http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/collar-lot-britains-policy-internment-second-world-war/

[homersapien 11,395]

39 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Well, after googling for about a half hour I had to amply apply some CYA ointment, tuck my tail, duck my head, and respond anyway. But I did answer your question...

And a straightforward and honest response it was, which is becoming rare here.

So kudos to you. 

[homersapien 11,395]

35 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

One more book for BigBen, Homer, and Britt to read over and digest. 

What exactly are you trying to imply?

[AUDub 11,158]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

And a straightforward and honest response it was, which is becoming rare here.

So kudos to you. 

Yeah it's pretty refreshing after Jeff. 

[homersapien 11,395]

44 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

Starting points! There are a lot.

For a general overview, The Second World War by John Keegan and is a good starting point and The Third Reich at War by Richard J. Evans

For the Western theater, The Second World War in the West by Charles Messenger

For the Pacific theater, Sea of Thunder - Four Commanders and the Last Great Naval Campaign 1941-1945 by Evan Thomas (this was a rec from Homer a few years back, and it's a great read.), The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors by James D. Hornfischer, War without Mercy by John Dower and The Pacific War by Saburo Ienaga for a Japanese perspective.

I think Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and Berlin Diary should be on the requisite list, as well as The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1937-1945 by John Toland (1971 Pulitzer Prize).

Here's a few more that I put in my (recent) data base, in no particular order:

Masters of the Air: America's bomber boys... By Donald Miller, 2006

The Ghost Mountain Boys - Their epic March and the Terrifying Battle for New Guinea - the Forgotten War of the South Pacific  by James Campbell, 2007

The Ultimate Battle - Okinawa 1945 - The Last Epic Struggle of World War II  by Bill Sloan, 2007  

Brothers in Battle, Best of Friends by William "Wild Bill Guarnere and Edward "Babe" Heffron with Robyn Post, 2008
101st Airborne 

The Few by Alex Kershaw, 2011
Americans in the Battle of Britain

Infantry Soldier: holding the line at the battle of the bulge by George W. Neill, 2002

Ship of Ghosts (USS Houston) by James D Hornfischer, 2006 

Sea of Thunder, Evan Thomas, 2006

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, James D. Hornfischer, 2004

Masters of the Air: America's bomber boys...  by Donald Miller, 2006

 

 

 

[AUDub 11,158]

10 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I think Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and Berlin Diary should be on the requisite list, as well as The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1937-1945 by John Toland (1971 Pulitzer Prize).

Here's a few more that I put in my (recent) data base, in no particular order:

Masters of the Air: America's bomber boys... By Donald Miller, 2006

The Ghost Mountain Boys - Their epic March and the Terrifying Battle for New Guinea - the Forgotten War of the South Pacific  by James Campbell, 2007

The Ultimate Battle - Okinawa 1945 - The Last Epic Struggle of World War II  by Bill Sloan, 2007  

Brothers in Battle, Best of Friends by William "Wild Bill Guarnere and Edward "Babe" Heffron with Robyn Post, 2008
101st Airborne 

The Few by Alex Kershaw, 2011
Americans in the Battle of Britain

Infantry Soldier: holding the line at the battle of the bulge by George W. Neill, 2002

Ship of Ghosts (USS Houston) by James D Hornfischer, 2006 

Sea of Thunder, Evan Thomas, 2006

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, James D. Hornfischer, 2004

Masters of the Air: America's bomber boys...  by Donald Miller, 2006

 

 

 

I should note that Homer is better read on this topic than me. Give me 35 years to catch up to him.

[homersapien 11,395]

Dang!  

Unfortunately, like most, I don't have a lifelong book list, so now I am going to be randomly remembering significant books on WWII for the next few days!  

Ive always tried to read books by the significant participates in the war like Eisenhower, Montgomery, Bradley, etc.

I particularly remember how Omar Bradley's A Soldier's Story was particularly good for explaining planning and execution, for example, how logistics impacted the allied advance across Europe.  (Seems there was a chronic shortage of artillery for the U.S., first because of logistical constraints of the landing followed by transporation constraints caused by distance and then, supply constraints because production was halted too soon in anticipation of the wars end, only to be surprised by the Battle of the Bulge.)

Speaking of which, I've read probably a half dozen books on the Battle of the Bulge alone - Toland, Kershaw, Beevor, etc.  I think about that battle every Christmas

Frankly, there are so many histories on the war that I would simply go to the library and just peruse the shelves - they will be somewhere in the mid 900's - and just pick out whatever looks interesting.  Or seek reviews and advice on the internet.