Voltaire and Freedom of Speech

[AuburnNTexas 7,165]

 "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This is often associated with Voltaire some say he said it some say it represents what he believed. It is something all free societies need to take to heed but sadly many do not anymore.  Lately we have been hearing about cancel culture and like most conservatives I have seen it as a way to stop people with my view. I was listening to the post on Ice T and I realize it is both sides doing it myself included.  I see where if somebody says Blue lives matter even if you have family that is involved in Law enforcement and even if you have lost some one it is portrayed as evil and should not be allowed. I have seen the same reaction when somebody says Black Lives Matter as if we think when they say that that they are saying only Black Lives Matter.  As Ice T said it is perspective.  I like to think I am fairly open minded (I think we all do think we are) I actually did understand what people meant when they said "Black Lives Matter" or "All Lives Matter" they were not saying other lives did not matter but they wanted to be sure the ones they loved were remembered and treated fairly. 

Then I started to do a little soul searching and I realized I have also partaken in cancel culture. I grew up in a Military family (Dad was in Navy for over 30 years WWII, Korea, Vietnam) as such I have a strong love for the Flag and the National Anthem. When players started Kneeling during the National Anthem I was one of the ones who thought the owners or the league should have punished them. I realize now I was only looking at it from my perspective. I was part of the cancel culture I rail against.  I still would prefer they not kneel during the National Anthem and find another way to make the same point. After soul searching I know they have the right to do it and as such should not be punished and I am willing to concede their intentions are good even if I disagree with how they are doing it. 

We all have to learn to listen to people we disagree with and we have to allow them to say things we disagree with even if we find them repugnant.  If we are not willing to do this there can be no change for the better just two camps opposed to each other neither willing to listen and try to understand the others perspective. 

[homersapien 11,409]

And we need a POTUS that refuses to pit one part of our country against another part for political reasons.

[SuperAUsome09 738]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

And we need a POTUS that refuses to pit one part of our country against another part for ANY reasons.

The gold standard for a POTUS imo

[jj3jordan 2,057]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

And we need a POTUS that refuses to pit one part of our country against another part for political reasons.

Yes you mean like Obama. Thank goodness.

[AuburnNTexas 7,165]

Some of the replies is exactly what I am talking about, The subject was about freedom of speech and we had one attack on Trump and another on Obama. We have a topic that is not about blaming anybody just talking about how important it is to listen to people you disagree with and allowing them to speak. Then to immediately attack one side or the other is why this country is so divided. A subject reasonable people both Liberal and Conservative could and should agree on should not be used to attack.

[homersapien 11,409]

1 hour ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Some of the replies is exactly what I am talking about, The subject was about freedom of speech and we had one attack on Trump and another on Obama. We have a topic that is not about blaming anybody just talking about how important it is to listen to people you disagree with and allowing them to speak. Then to immediately attack one side or the other is why this country is so divided. A subject reasonable people both Liberal and Conservative could and should agree on should not be used to attack.

The incivility didn't just spring up out of a vacuum. 

[AUDub 11,160]

2 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Some of the replies is exactly what I am talking about, The subject was about freedom of speech and we had one attack on Trump and another on Obama. We have a topic that is not about blaming anybody just talking about how important it is to listen to people you disagree with and allowing them to speak. Then to immediately attack one side or the other is why this country is so divided. A subject reasonable people both Liberal and Conservative could and should agree on should not be used to attack.

That's a very narrow view of free speech. Allowing them to speak doesn't mean i have to listen or refrain from expressing disapproval. Freedom of speech does not guarantee a right to be heard or shield you from criticism.

Hell, voicing disapproval is a form of free speech in its own right.

[jj3jordan 2,057]

1 hour ago, AUDub said:

That's a very narrow view of free speech. Allowing them to speak doesn't mean i have to listen or refrain from expressing disapproval. Freedom of speech does not guarantee a right to be heard or shield you from criticism.

Hell, voicing disapproval is a form of free speech in its own right.

And there it is. The left will shout you down claiming it is freedom of speech to drown you out.  The right will just not go to the lecture or talk or whatever but we will let you speak all day.

[AUDub 11,160]

Just now, jj3jordan said:

And there it is. The left will shout you down claiming it is freedom of speech to drown you out.  The right will just not go to the lecture or talk or whatever but we will let you speak all day.

I was defending your disapproval with regard to Obama too, man. OP chastised both you and Homer. 

You're just too dense to realize when someone comes to your defense on principle.

[jj3jordan 2,057]

6 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I was defending your disapproval with regard to Obama too, man. OP chastised both you and Homer. 

You're just too dense to realize when someone comes to your defense on principle.

No offense meant to you sir if I misunderstood your comments. It sounded like you thought shouting down is okay because a speaker does not have the right to be heard. I feel that attendees DO have the right to hear the speaker regardless of how much an opponent doesn’t want the speaker to talk.  It’s typical of the left to shout speakers down or use noisemakers until they give up and leave. Please accept my apology.

[AUDub 11,160]

2 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

No offense meant to you sir if I misunderstood your comments. It sounded like you thought shouting down is okay because a speaker does not have the right to be heard. I feel that attendees DO have the right to hear the speaker regardless of how much an opponent doesn’t want the speaker to talk.  It’s typical of the left to shout speakers down or use noisemakers until they give up and leave. Please accept my apology.

I am not a fan of the heckler's veto, but this is an extremely complex topic, far more complex than aphorisms from Voltaire. Boycotts, for example, are a form of speech en masse, but many would wrap them up into the looser definitions of cancel culture, as they would gathering and protesting.

And I apologize for calling you dense. 

[DKW 86 7,437]

17 hours ago, homersapien said:

And we need a POTUS that refuses to pit one part of our country against another part for political reasons.

Good luck with that. In HYPER PARTISAN America, that is business from both sides 24-7-365. It is THE GO TO in 21st Century America and I blame Limbaugh-Hannity- and Fox News for 60-70% of it. As we see in the Pelosi-Hair Thread, People will BLINDLY defend the indefensible for nothing more than Partisanship. 

[DKW 86 7,437]

On 9/4/2020 at 11:28 PM, AUDub said:

I am not a fan of the heckler's veto, but this is an extremely complex topic, far more complex than aphorisms from Voltaire. Boycotts, for example, are a form of speech en masse, but many would wrap them up into the looser definitions of cancel culture, as they would gathering and protesting.

This is where we do not think alike. I do not have be so woke that I HAVE to shout everything down. There are whole threads I avoid on here because I just dont care to get slimed with all the negativity. The heckler's veto is actually what most of America would call commentary today. 

Look, I FULLY BELIEVE that Trump is going down in November. 95% Believe that, but I also thought that back in 2016. I am wary enough to the voting population that I can see him building some momentum again. In many places he is ahead of the 2016 schedule. I also believe that SCREAMING "ORANGE MAN BAD" for four years has left certain parts of the nation tone deaf. Most Biden Voters, cant name one reason to vote for Biden other than...."ORANGE MAN BAD." I posted a Meme on my FB wall asking people to tell me "Why are you voting for Biden, answer without using the word Trump." The results were not encouraging. Almost no one gave a real answer and I mean I love and respect everyone there. but the two best answers were in fact 1) Wrong: "Biden will forgive Student Debt"  or 2) Pablum: The story about the boy that spoke at the DNC Convention. 

Almost everyone there fell back to: "ORANGE MAN BAD" Yall know that I have, hell I be will honest for once, I have HATED, yes HATED, Trump for 33 years, take away my Christian cred here. He is a limp dick rich boy that coudnt get laid if he didnt have his Daddy's  bank account. But folks, he still falls under Voltaire, even for me. I have to hold my nose and support the Free Speech Rights of a guy that has been WORSHIPPED by the America nation for 33 years as a Business Wunderkind. He has in fact been nothing but a Business Failure. The media Loved him when he was flashing cash to the correct people, namely HRC and WJC, but turned on him when he ran for President, and hated him even more when he won.

I have hated the bastiche rich man's son for 33 years. If it werent for loans from Deutsche Bank, he would have been put to pasture 15 years ago. But yes even saying all that, I took an oath as a US Navy member to defend the Constitution and to Defend the Rights of All, even a bastiche like Trump. I have never supported him, I do support his Right to Free Speech, even though I LOATHE him as a man.

As a Christian Male, watching my "So-Called Brethren" defend him as a born-again believer has just reinforced my beliefs that a huge chunk of those that call themselves Christians have never met the Entity I worship. If you can call yourself Christian & can support Trump, I would openly question your testimony and your salvation.

On 9/4/2020 at 2:34 PM, AuburnNTexas said:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

This is in fact MY ONLY point with Trump. THE ONLY THING I BELIEVE MORE THAN TRUMP IS A DERELICT OF A MAN, A CON ARTIST, A FRAUD, is that even a derelict, con artist, and a fraud STILL has a Right to Free Speech. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,165]

When I first posted this topic the first two responses were a like from Homer a very intelligent person who I often disagree with but who I respect because he usually backs his views with well thought out arguments and we often find somethings we agree about even when we may not agree totally and a Love from icanthearyou a person who usually responds to anything I say on the Political Forum with a FacePalm.  I have to admit I was proud of getting these two responses.

Then I was a little put out when Homer used this topic to snipe at Trump and jj3jordan used it to snipe at Obama.  I wasn't put out because one didn't like Trump and one didn't like Obama this is a Political Forum I expect those types of comments on a Political Forum it was because the Topic was on Freedom of Speech.  I was disappointed because I expected more of Homer I have not read enough from jj3jordan  to either value or not value his opinion. jj3jordan that is not a cut just a statement of fact as we have never interacted that much. 

AUDub I agree free speech includes dissent if you think I was implying that your were wrong.  But as for what Voltaire said being a very narrow view of what Free Speech is I disagree,  Voltaire's view is the Foundation of a Free Society. Without it you have Right Wing Dictatorships,  Left Wing Authoritarian Governments, or Theocracies where dissent is met with missing people, torture and death. You are correct heckling is also a form of free speech but only when used properly. Heckling after somebody has spoken is totally legitimate way of saying I disagree with you. Heckling used to drown out another person is the opposite of free speech.  Boycotts, and Protesting are definitely forms of free speech. 

AUDub thank you I have no problem with anything you said as you stayed on Topic about Free Speech as I said it was not that Homer and jj3jordan didn't have the right to their views on Trump and Obama there are multiple topics out there where those views are welcomed but I didn't think it had anything to do with the Topic of Free Speech.

[homersapien 11,409]

2 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

When I first posted this topic the first two responses were a like from Homer a very intelligent person who I often disagree with but who I respect because he usually backs his views with well thought out arguments and we often find somethings we agree about even when we may not agree totally and a Love from icanthearyou a person who usually responds to anything I say on the Political Forum with a FacePalm.  I have to admit I was proud of getting these two responses.

Then I was a little put out when Homer used this topic to snipe at Trump and jj3jordan used it to snipe at Obama.  I wasn't put out because one didn't like Trump and one didn't like Obama this is a Political Forum I expect those types of comments on a Political Forum it was because the Topic was on Freedom of Speech.  I was disappointed because I expected more of Homer I have not read enough from jj3jordan  to either value or not value his opinion. jj3jordan that is not a cut just a statement of fact as we have never interacted that much. 

AUDub I agree free speech includes dissent if you think I was implying that your were wrong.  But as for what Voltaire said being a very narrow view of what Free Speech is I disagree,  Voltaire's view is the Foundation of a Free Society. Without it you have Right Wing Dictatorships,  Left Wing Authoritarian Governments, or Theocracies where dissent is met with missing people, torture and death. You are correct heckling is also a form of free speech but only when used properly. Heckling after somebody has spoken is totally legitimate way of saying I disagree with you. Heckling used to drown out another person is the opposite of free speech.  Boycotts, and Protesting are definitely forms of free speech. 

AUDub thank you I have no problem with anything you said as you stayed on Topic about Free Speech as I said it was not that Homer and jj3jordan didn't have the right to their views on Trump and Obama there are multiple topics out there where those views are welcomed but I didn't think it had anything to do with the Topic of Free Speech.

I agreed with your OP.  I fail to see how my response challenged it.

Like Dub said, there's a huge difference between shouting down a "speaker" - refusing to hear them out - and responding to someone, even when said response doesn't jive with the the speaker's intent, which apparently was the case here.

I agree we have serious issues with civility in politics, and much of that comes from not listening.  (I'm not sure it's historical, but I think changes started when congressmen started commuting instead of staying in Washington and socializing with each other - including those in the opposite party (cocktail parties).

It's gotten worse as technology and media have exploded, supercharging politics.  And of course Trump, IMO, is the personification of just how much worse it can get. 

When we have a POTUS that actively employs division in the country for personal political reasons our democracy is in grave threat. And in a totalitarian state, Voltaire doesn't count for s***.

(P.S.: Anyone who seriously equates Obama to Trump in the cynical use of division is a total fool IMO.  I ignore jj3 for that very reason. Life is too short to waste time on such people.)

 

[ToraGirl 5,498]

We can only be responsible for our own reactions, much as we succeed in projection.  Thought this was timely.

 

[DKW 86 7,437]

A party that embraces Identity Politics is just as divisive as Trump.

They are deciding to use division and amplify division for their own ends. 

[DKW 86 7,437]

We have a thread where we talk about Freedom Speech and yet, we have those that cannot turn off the partisanship for even a few seconds. 

This is, again, Very Funny and Pathetically Sad at the same time.

 

[DKW 86 7,437]

8 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

We have a thread where we talk about Freedom Speech and yet, we have those that cannot turn off the partisanship for even a few seconds. 

This is, again, Very Funny and Pathetically Sad at the same time.

 

Another facepalm. We need to rename this place SSDD....really. It is just the same old tired partisan hackery we have always had here. Doesnt matter how bad your guy is, always just point to the other guy. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS...Pathetically funny...No one grows here. No one evolves. It is just the same s*** over and over and over and over. 

Hey, why dont we just rename the forum RUSSIANS!!!! That way homey can continue to come here for the rest of his days and talk about something that has been debunked to everyone in America but HRC and him. You know, if we just had another 40 phony opinion pieces posted here all about a debunked topic hey, maybe that will make the world better right? maybe another 400? or 4000? We just keep repeating things that everyone else in America has moved on from and just keep screaming it endlessly that will make it all eventually, somehow...true. 

[AUDub 11,160]

On 9/5/2020 at 8:35 AM, AuburnNTexas said:

When I first posted this topic the first two responses were a like from Homer a very intelligent person who I often disagree with but who I respect because he usually backs his views with well thought out arguments and we often find somethings we agree about even when we may not agree totally and a Love from icanthearyou a person who usually responds to anything I say on the Political Forum with a FacePalm.  I have to admit I was proud of getting these two responses.

Then I was a little put out when Homer used this topic to snipe at Trump and jj3jordan used it to snipe at Obama.  I wasn't put out because one didn't like Trump and one didn't like Obama this is a Political Forum I expect those types of comments on a Political Forum it was because the Topic was on Freedom of Speech.  I was disappointed because I expected more of Homer I have not read enough from jj3jordan  to either value or not value his opinion. jj3jordan that is not a cut just a statement of fact as we have never interacted that much. 

AUDub I agree free speech includes dissent if you think I was implying that your were wrong.  But as for what Voltaire said being a very narrow view of what Free Speech is I disagree,  Voltaire's view is the Foundation of a Free Society. Without it you have Right Wing Dictatorships,  Left Wing Authoritarian Governments, or Theocracies where dissent is met with missing people, torture and death. You are correct heckling is also a form of free speech but only when used properly. Heckling after somebody has spoken is totally legitimate way of saying I disagree with you. Heckling used to drown out another person is the opposite of free speech.  Boycotts, and Protesting are definitely forms of free speech. 

AUDub thank you I have no problem with anything you said as you stayed on Topic about Free Speech as I said it was not that Homer and jj3jordan didn't have the right to their views on Trump and Obama there are multiple topics out there where those views are welcomed but I didn't think it had anything to do with the Topic of Free Speech.

The part where you spoke of the importance of listening is where I have a major problem. Civility is important, yeah, but there are a lot of bad faith operators out there. Insincerity - not seeking to engage, but provoke - is every bit as uncivil as any opprobrium I could fling their way in response.

There's a balance that must be struck, otherwise you're not seriously defending free speech, rather provocateurs' privilege. I don’t care to seriously give ear to the Milos and Spencers of the world. 

[AUDub 11,160]

Ld

On 9/5/2020 at 7:31 PM, ToraGirl said:

We can only be responsible for our own reactions, much as we succeed in projection.  Thought this was timely.

 

I'm going to be unfriendly to people that suggest the Jews are responsible for all of the world wars, black people are inherently inferior, women shouldn't be allowed to vote and that we should stone all of the gays.

Sometimes ugliness is warranted. 

[AUDub 11,160]

On 9/5/2020 at 8:34 AM, DKW 86 said:

This is where we do not think alike. I do not have be so woke that I HAVE to shout everything down. There are whole threads I avoid on here because I just dont care to get slimed with all the negativity. The heckler's veto is actually what most of America would call commentary today. 

Look, I FULLY BELIEVE that Trump is going down in November. 95% Believe that, but I also thought that back in 2016. I am wary enough to the voting population that I can see him building some momentum again. In many places he is ahead of the 2016 schedule. I also believe that SCREAMING "ORANGE MAN BAD" for four years has left certain parts of the nation tone deaf. Most Biden Voters, cant name one reason to vote for Biden other than...."ORANGE MAN BAD." I posted a Meme on my FB wall asking people to tell me "Why are you voting for Biden, answer without using the word Trump." The results were not encouraging. Almost no one gave a real answer and I mean I love and respect everyone there. but the two best answers were in fact 1) Wrong: "Biden will forgive Student Debt"  or 2) Pablum: The story about the boy that spoke at the DNC Convention. 

Almost everyone there fell back to: "ORANGE MAN BAD" Yall know that I have, hell I be will honest for once, I have HATED, yes HATED, Trump for 33 years, take away my Christian cred here. He is a limp dick rich boy that coudnt get laid if he didnt have his Daddy's  bank account. But folks, he still falls under Voltaire, even for me. I have to hold my nose and support the Free Speech Rights of a guy that has been WORSHIPPED by the America nation for 33 years as a Business Wunderkind. He has in fact been nothing but a Business Failure. The media Loved him when he was flashing cash to the correct people, namely HRC and WJC, but turned on him when he ran for President, and hated him even more when he won.

I have hated the bastiche rich man's son for 33 years. If it werent for loans from Deutsche Bank, he would have been put to pasture 15 years ago. But yes even saying all that, I took an oath as a US Navy member to defend the Constitution and to Defend the Rights of All, even a bastiche like Trump. I have never supported him, I do support his Right to Free Speech, even though I LOATHE him as a man.

As a Christian Male, watching my "So-Called Brethren" defend him as a born-again believer has just reinforced my beliefs that a huge chunk of those that call themselves Christians have never met the Entity I worship. If you can call yourself Christian & can support Trump, I would openly question your testimony and your salvation.

This is in fact MY ONLY point with Trump. THE ONLY THING I BELIEVE MORE THAN TRUMP IS A DERELICT OF A MAN, A CON ARTIST, A FRAUD, is that even a derelict, con artist, and a fraud STILL has a Right to Free Speech. 

You're punching strawmen.

Again. 

[AUDub 11,160]

On 9/6/2020 at 11:54 AM, DKW 86 said:

A party that embraces Identity Politics is just as divisive as Trump.

They are deciding to use division and amplify division for their own ends. 

Identity politics is not a novel phenomenon. Hell, there's a reason Trump got elected. 

[DKW 86 7,437]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

Identity politics is not a novel phenomenon. Hell, there's a reason Trump got elected. 

And we are agreeing that it is indeed poisonous.

[DKW 86 7,437]

6 minutes ago, AUDub said:

I'm going to be unfriendly to people that suggest the Jews are responsible for all of the world wars, black people are inherently inferior, women shouldn't be allowed to vote and that we should stone all of the gays.

Sometimes ugliness is warranted. 

You are going to have a hard time with most of the American Left it seems. This is one of those third rail issues that simply cannot be questioned in the minds of some otherwise great people. Abortion and Zionism/Jewish Conspiracies, they cannot be questioned for any reason. There are so many people, hell even highly educated, normally wonderful people that will just go into the ditch as soon as the topic comes up. Good, friends with post grad degrees unfortunately are not immune from it. (sigh)