'American Gulag'

[Tiger Al 0]

Which is total bull**** and you know it.

Why??? Because Rumsfeld said so? I haven't been there, have you? I'm sure the comparison isn't perfect, but it must've been close enough that it brought the term "gulag" to mind. People held indefinitely without being charged with anything, unable to communicate with anyone outside the confines of the prison. No legal representation or status. Tortured, sometimes to the point of death. Good God, Tigermike, if these prisons were being run by France, Russia or Germany, you'd be all over it, as you should be. That's not America's way, or, at least, it shouldn't be.

Maybe we just don't want to give potential terrorists the opportunity to act upon a decision they have already made.

I don't have a link because I read it is US News, but of the prisoners we HAVE released from Gitmo, 50 are already back in Pakistani jails, and have professed such a wild and deep hatred for America that they have had to call in clerics to counsel them. Yeah, let's let them ALL go!!

The potential terrorist I was talking about is the 18 or 19 year old Muslim kid who sees this kind of behavior from a few Americans and comes to the conclusion that we really ARE the "Great Satan" that some say we are. You don't win hearts and minds by acting, even in the smallest way, like those you've previously labled as "thugs." In that Muslim kid's mind, one thug has been traded for another one.

If the situation were reversed and you sat in your home in Houston as some Middle Eastern occupiers tortured Americans in a prison in El Paso, I find it very hard to believe that you would take a passive, "They're only here to help," attitude like you seem to assume they are taking. I wouldn't. I'd be off the fence in a heartbeat taking up the cause to send them back to the Middle East or to hell, whichever came first.

I never said they should ALL be released wholesale. That's a knee-jerk response. Don't you think it's possible that some of those rounded up aren't terrorists, but were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Couldn't some of them be cooks, launderers, laborers or whatever, just following the money where it led so they could support their families? Problem is, they're ALL guilty until proven innocent but there doesn't seem to be any mechanism in place to determine that.

I don't have a link because I read it is US News, but of the prisoners we HAVE released from Gitmo, 50 are already back in Pakistani jails, and have professed such a wild and deep hatred for America that they have had to call in clerics to counsel them.

Maybe those 50 are the 18 or 19 year old Muslim kids I was talking about who experienced the Gitmo that the Krauthammers, Limbaughs, Hannitys and Wills dismiss as "liberals hating America."

[Tiger in Spain 0]

there you go again....its all America's fault. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

[Tiger Al 0]

Oh, by the way, did I mention that Amnesty International is now saying they have no proof the atrocities they brought out to the world ever occurred. Imagine that, throw a turd sandwich at the troops then when no facts are brought to light, duck back into the shadows and think of the next atrocity to hang on the troops.

So, the Pentagon is now in the habit of admitting to things that never happened that it had previously denied???

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Wow.....5 instances of "mishandling" prior to 2003, two of which were deemed accidental, and none of which involve flushing or attempting to flush one down the toilet as first reported (and still unsubstantiated). Everything I'm reading leads me to believe there was no, as you liberals love to say it, desecration of the koran. Should be the end of the story, right?

He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set. My God, you mean someone actually bumped into a koran? Swwet Allah, this man should be court-martialed

He added that there were also 15 cases in which detainees mishandled the Koran, including one who purposefully ripped pages out of his own book.

I have to admint, you got me there, Al. Way to put me in my place!

[Tiger Al 0]

Wow.....5 instances of "mishandling" prior to 2003, two of which were deemed accidental, and none of which involve flushing or attempting to flush one down the toilet as first reported (and still unsubstantiated). Everything I'm reading leads me to believe there was no, as you liberals love to say it, desecration of the koran. Should be the end of the story, right?

He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set. My God, you mean someone actually bumped into a koran? Swwet Allah, this man should be court-martialed

He added that there were also 15 cases in which detainees mishandled the Koran, including one who purposefully ripped pages out of his own book.

I have to admint, you got me there, Al. Way to put me in my place!

162552[/snapback]

You stopped too soon:

The earlier documents also included e-mails from FBI agents who said they had witnessed Guantanamo Bay detainees being shackled to the floor for days at a time, deprived of food and water and left to defecate on themselves.

[Auburn85 432]

I'm sure International Amnesty is already on it.... expect to see a quote that we treat prisoners worse than Hitler did in the concentration camps.

The ACLU will probably file another suit under "the freedom of info act" to have photos released

and The New York Times will eventually run numerous front page stories to try and persuade you hat this is an "epidemic" and a widespread problem.

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Jesus Christ you people are on dope! These savages want to saw your freaking heads off and all you hand wringing terrorist loving socialists can do is sit there behind your keyboards and crucify the very ones protecting you. These terrorists were captured on the battlefield fighting against your country. These terrorists want you dead. These terrorists are using you. You, on the other hand, harbor such hatred for the president that you will go to any length to undermine the war effort of your own country. You show more concern over the alleged "mishandling" of a book than you do over the murder of innocents by these savages. You give these butchers every benefit of the doubt and give them the will to continue the fight, all the while attacking our own soldiers and their mission due to your blinding hatred of anything this administration does. Where is your outrage at the common practice by the detainees of slinging their feces and urine on our guards at Gitmo? It happens every day, but since it doesn't hurt this administration, it doesn't elicit the drama queen reaction from you terrorist sympathizers. Where was your outrage when the picture of the soldier in Mosul carrying the lifeless body of the little girl killed by these terrorists was shown in the papers? Again, it doesn't harm Bush so it's not mentioned. You people make me sick.

You handwringing terrorist loving liberal socialists would be the first to lambaste the White House and Pentagon if Bush were to heed the New York Times call to shut down Gitmo and one of the released detainees went on to commit an act of mass terrorism on American soil. You'd be calling for his head for setting these butchers free. I'm convinced your ilk won't be satisfied until, God forbid, a democrat is elected president.....then it will be anything goes.

162513[/snapback]

Even NICER sarcastic rhetoric!!! Yes, that's it...we MUST hate America, the military and Dubya. We MUST hate freedom and the Constitution, liberty and the Bible. Hell, we MUST even hate baseball, hot dogs, apple pie AND Chevrolet!

Maybe we just don't want to give potential terrorists one more reason to make that decision.

162523[/snapback]

You can't reason with Tiger in Spain. He's a Fascist's dream citizen.

[Tiger Al 0]

I'm sure International Amnesty is already on it.... expect to see a quote that we treat prisoners worse than Hitler did in the concentration camps. If we did, indeed, treat them worse than that and Amnesty International proved as much beyond any doubt, I suspect you'd then minimize that by comparing it to an even worse atrocity.

The ACLU will probably file another suit under "the freedom of info act" to have photos released. I wonder why you don't question why the ACLU, or anyone, should have to file a lawsuit to get information that was supposed to be "free" as a result of an Act of Congress.

and The New York Times will eventually run numerous front page stories to try and persuade you hat this is an "epidemic" and a widespread problem. Maybe it is an epidemic...We have two major prisons under our control, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and BOTH have been found to torture and mistreat prisoners in various ways.

162557[/snapback]

[Tiger Al 0]

Jesus Christ you people are on dope! These savages want to saw your freaking heads off and all you hand wringing terrorist loving socialists can do is sit there behind your keyboards and crucify the very ones protecting you. These terrorists were captured on the battlefield fighting against your country. These terrorists want you dead. These terrorists are using you. You, on the other hand, harbor such hatred for the president that you will go to any length to undermine the war effort of your own country. You show more concern over the alleged "mishandling" of a book than you do over the murder of innocents by these savages. You give these butchers every benefit of the doubt and give them the will to continue the fight, all the while attacking our own soldiers and their mission due to your blinding hatred of anything this administration does. Where is your outrage at the common practice by the detainees of slinging their feces and urine on our guards at Gitmo? It happens every day, but since it doesn't hurt this administration, it doesn't elicit the drama queen reaction from you terrorist sympathizers. Where was your outrage when the picture of the soldier in Mosul carrying the lifeless body of the little girl killed by these terrorists was shown in the papers? Again, it doesn't harm Bush so it's not mentioned. You people make me sick.

You handwringing terrorist loving liberal socialists would be the first to lambaste the White House and Pentagon if Bush were to heed the New York Times call to shut down Gitmo and one of the released detainees went on to commit an act of mass terrorism on American soil. You'd be calling for his head for setting these butchers free. I'm convinced your ilk won't be satisfied until, God forbid, a democrat is elected president.....then it will be anything goes.

162513[/snapback]

Even NICER sarcastic rhetoric!!! Yes, that's it...we MUST hate America, the military and Dubya. We MUST hate freedom and the Constitution, liberty and the Bible. Hell, we MUST even hate baseball, hot dogs, apple pie AND Chevrolet!

Maybe we just don't want to give potential terrorists one more reason to make that decision.

162523[/snapback]

You can't reason with Tiger in Spain. He's a Fascist's dream citizen.

162562[/snapback]

I just like to see how many popular neo-con phrases he can put into a single post without coming up for air.

[MDM4AU 332]

Forgive me if this has already been posted...

'Don't know for sure' about Guantanamo: Amnesty USA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Despite highly publicized charges of U.S. mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo, the head of the Amnesty International USA said on Sunday the group doesn't "know for sure" that the military is running a "gulag."

Executive Director William Schulz said Amnesty, often cited worldwide for documenting human rights abuses, also did not know whether Secretary Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved severe torture methods such as beatings and starvation.

LINK

[Auburn85 432]

ACLU wants to have more pics released from a scene that's already taken place. What do you want a CNN photo slide show of the ABU GRAHIB abuse where people have been or being punished?

We've seen pics already, what do we need pics from different angles, maybe pics in black and white to be creative.

You want us to send them ot Zarquawi as a greeting card?

And like I've said the ACLU is picky and choosy about its battles.

And from a journalistic standpoint, do you think the NYT was showing great journalistic responsibilty for having 50 plus front page stories on the abuse at Abu Grahib? I bet the Afghan or Iraq elections didn't get that many front page stories from the NYT.

[Tiger Al 0]

ACLU wants to have more pics released from a scene that's already taken place. What do you want a CNN photo slide show of the ABU GRAHIB abuse where people have been or being punished?

We've seen pics already, what do we need pics from different angles, maybe pics in black and white to be creative.

You want us to send them ot Zarquawi as a greeting card?

And like I've said the ACLU is picky and choosy about its battles.

And from a journalistic standpoint, do you think the NYT was showing great journalistic responsibilty for having 50 plus front page stories on the abuse at Abu Grahib? I bet the Afghan or Iraq elections didn't get that many front page stories from the NYT.

162628[/snapback]

I like the way you slip in references to "the media." They're always to blame, aren't they? That's like Liddy and Buchanan bitching because Felt brought down the president instead of his illegal actions.

BTW, how has the ACLU been "picky and choosy?"

[Piglet 0]

I ain't about to second-guess the military here, 'cause I don't know enough.

But I do know that this war involves an enemy that doesn't play by conventional rules. They're fighting a guerilla war and going after civilian targets, and they're such fanatics that they're willing to kill themselves if they can just make a big enough mess on the way out. Is THAT consistent with the Geneva Convention? When they catch one of OUR guys, do they treat him humanely, or do they cut off his head with the camera rolling?

Seems to me that those of you who want our side to be the only one playing by the rules are sending people with knives to a gunfight, blindfolded.

It's easy to sit in our chairs and tut-tut about those nasty soldiers dirtying their hands. But what if there was another terrorist attack, maybe killing people you love--you'd be wishing our big dogs had been doing anything possible to stop it from happening.

It's good to be compassionate. It's good to be concerned about torture, and to want to be always indisputably the good guys. Jesus would probably treat the Gitmo prisoners differently. But we--we're not that perfect, and we don't have that luxury.

I suggest being first compassionate for our fellow Americans--who may well be directly in harm's way--and for our declared enemies only after that, if there's any compassion left over after what they've made us suffer.

[Piglet 0]

ACLU wants to have more pics released from a scene that's already taken place. What do you want a CNN photo slide show of the ABU GRAHIB abuse where people have been or being punished?

162628[/snapback]

I want a Find Waldo book in which every page has Lynndie England pointing and laughing somewhere in the crowd.

[Tigermike 3,040]

Forgive me if this has already been posted...

'Don't know for sure' about Guantanamo: Amnesty USA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Despite highly publicized charges of U.S. mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo, the head of the Amnesty International USA said on Sunday the group doesn't "know for sure" that the military is running a "gulag."

Executive Director William Schulz said Amnesty, often cited worldwide for documenting human rights abuses, also did not know whether Secretary Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved severe torture methods such as beatings and starvation.

LINK

162623[/snapback]

Dear Ole Al has sure avoided that article didn't he?

[Tiger in Spain 0]

You can't reason with Tiger in Spain.  He's a Fascist's dream citizen.

162562[/snapback]

And you, sir, are Zarqawi's best friend.

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Forgive me if this has already been posted...

'Don't know for sure' about Guantanamo: Amnesty USA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Despite highly publicized charges of U.S. mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo, the head of the Amnesty International USA said on Sunday the group doesn't "know for sure" that the military is running a "gulag."

Executive Director William Schulz said Amnesty, often cited worldwide for documenting human rights abuses, also did not know whether Secretary Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved severe torture methods such as beatings and starvation.

LINK

162623[/snapback]

Dear Ole Al has sure avoided that article didn't he?

162698[/snapback]

A bit more of it:

Schulz said, "We don't know for sure what all is happening at Guantanamo and our whole point is that the United States ought to allow independent human rights organizations to investigate."

He also said he had "absolutely no idea" whether the International Red Cross had been given access to all prisoners and said the group feared others were being held at secret facilities or locations.

President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and, most recently, Rumsfeld have repudiated the Amnesty report.

The United States holds about 520 men at Guantanamo, where they are denied rights accorded under international law to prisoners of war. Many have been held without charge for more than three years.

Schulz noted that it was Amnesty's headquarters in London that issued the annual report on global human rights, which said Guantanamo Bay "has become the gulag of our times."

Asked about the comparison, Schulz said, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy."

"... But there are some similarities. The United States is maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared ... And in some cases, at least, we know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed."

"And whether the Americans like it or not, it does reflect how the more than 2 million Amnesty members in a hundred countries around the world and indeed the vast majority of those countries feel about the United States' detention policy," he said.

Biden added: "More Americans are in jeopardy as a consequence of the perception that exists worldwide with its existence than if there were no (Guantanamo)."

[TexasTiger 12,964]

You can't reason with Tiger in Spain.  He's a Fascist's dream citizen.

162562[/snapback]

And you, sir, are Zarqawi's best friend.

162699[/snapback]

Just more evidence of my assertion.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

I just like to see how many popular neo-con phrases he can put into a single post without coming up for air.

162564[/snapback]

Aren't you the pot calling the kettle black! What I post comes straight from the heart. Heart is something the handwringers are sadly lacking.

I ain't about to second-guess the military here, 'cause I don't know enough.

But I do know that this war involves an enemy that doesn't play by conventional rules. They're fighting a guerilla war and going after civilian targets, and they're such fanatics that they're willing to kill themselves if they can just make a big enough mess on the way out. Is THAT consistent with the Geneva Convention? When they catch one of OUR guys, do they treat him humanely, or do they cut off his head with the camera rolling?

Seems to me that those of you who want our side to be the only one playing by the rules are sending people with knives to a gunfight, blindfolded.

It's easy to sit in our chairs and tut-tut about those nasty soldiers dirtying their hands. But what if there was another terrorist attack, maybe killing people you love--you'd be wishing our big dogs had been doing anything possible to stop it from happening.

It's good to be compassionate. It's good to be concerned about torture, and to want to be always indisputably the good guys. Jesus would probably treat the Gitmo prisoners differently. But we--we're not that perfect, and we don't have that luxury.

I suggest being first compassionate for our fellow Americans--who may well be directly in harm's way--and for our declared enemies only after that, if there's any compassion left over after what they've made us suffer.

Well put, Piglet. Thank you.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Schulz said, "We don't know for sure what all is happening at Guantanamo and our whole point is that the United States ought to allow independent human rights organizations to investigate."

He also said he had "absolutely no idea" whether the International Red Cross had been given access to all prisoners and said the group feared others were being held at secret facilities or locations.

President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and, most recently, Rumsfeld have repudiated the Amnesty report.

The United States holds about 520 men at Guantanamo, where they are denied rights accorded under international law to prisoners of war. Many have been held without charge for more than three years.

Schulz noted that it was Amnesty's headquarters in London that issued the annual report on global human rights, which said Guantanamo Bay "has become the gulag of our times."

Asked about the comparison, Schulz said, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy."

"... But there are some similarities. The United States is maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared ... And in some cases, at least, we know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed."

"And whether the Americans like it or not, it does reflect how the more than 2 million Amnesty members in a hundred countries around the world and indeed the vast majority of those countries feel about the United States' detention policy," he said.

Biden added: "More Americans are in jeopardy as a consequence of the perception that exists worldwide with its existence than if there were no (Guantanamo)."

162702[/snapback]

All I am seeing is a bunch of double speak. Schulz says he has "absolutely no idea" whether the International Red Cross had been given access...... Sounds like they are doing a hell of a lot of speculating. Of course, speculation is the basis of most of these charges anyway.

Here's another tactic used by the blame America crowd, and there are numeous instances of its use here over the past year; make a statement then backpeddle when confronted. Once again, the anti-Americans at AI said Gitmo has "become the gulag of our times." In your piece above, we see Schulz starting to crawfish. He says, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy." WHAT??!! You either said it or you didn't, Billy Boy. Now which is it? Of course, no one in their right mind would ever expect these morons to be men enough to stand by what they say.

Biden's assertion is a shining example of the left not getting it. This type of attitude today is proof positive that the democrats can't be trusted with our nations security. Thankfully, 2.5% more of the voting public last year thought so, too. The bottom line is that if it wasn't Gitmo it would be something else. When are liberals going to learn that we can't appease these people. They didn't learn with Hitler in the 30s, and they're still making the same mistakes. They'll find something to criticize us for.

Does anyone else find it ironic that these Bush bashers that are so outraged by the mishandling of the muslims koran are so vehemently opposed to our own bible? God help the person that says "Amen" in school, because the ACLU and other democrats will be on them like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat. But let an American soldier guarding a murderer at Gitmo sneeze within 20 feet of the koran and all hell breaks loose.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

How about entertaining the thought that the "poor abused prisoners" are themselves lying sacks of bull crap?

Mainstream media have been reluctant, in all the coverage of treatment of detainees at Guantanamo, to mention that the al Qaeda training manual specifically instructs all of its agents to make false claims of torture. The New York Times seems to have mentioned the manual's torture reference only once, in a short report from Australia. Several other papers mentioned it as a one-line quote from a military spokesman who pointed it out. But until the Washington Times ran a front-page piece last week, a Nexis search could find no clear and pointed article in the U.S. press like the one by Alasdair Palmer in the London Sunday Telegraph, with the headline "This is al Qaeda Rule 18: 'You must claim you were tortured.' " He wrote that the manual doesn't prove "that the Britons were not tortured in Guantanamo. But it ought to encourage some doubts about uncritically accepting that they were--which seems to be the attitude adopted by most of the media." Amen to both points in that last sentence.

Of course, no one is talking about the other part of the Amnesty Report that calls for the leaders of the United States of America to be taken prisoner!!

Rule 18. A different omission marred the reporting of Amnesty International's report charging torture in U.S. detainment camps. The group didn't just call Guantanamo a "gulag," an over-the-top remark that was universally reported. In a press release that most reporters ignored, the group also invited foreign governments to snatch certain visiting American officials off the streets and bring them to trial for crimes against humanity. The suggested snatchees, should they travel abroad, were President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA Director George Tenet, and other unnamed civilian and military officials. Amnesty International said that "all states have a responsibility to investigate and prosecute people responsible for these crimes," just as the British pounced on Augusto Pinochet in London in 1998. The snatching recommendation wasn't new, but the Amnesty press release is a useful reminder of the dangers of signing on to the International Criminal Court.

Link to both stories

[Tiger in Spain 0]

How about entertaining the thought that the "poor abused prisoners" are themselves lying sacks of bull crap?

Mainstream media have been reluctant, in all the coverage of treatment of detainees at Guantanamo, to mention that the al Qaeda training manual specifically instructs all of its agents to make false claims of torture. The New York Times seems to have mentioned the manual's torture reference only once, in a short report from Australia. Several other papers mentioned it as a one-line quote from a military spokesman who pointed it out. But until the Washington Times ran a front-page piece last week, a Nexis search could find no clear and pointed article in the U.S. press like the one by Alasdair Palmer in the London Sunday Telegraph, with the headline "This is al Qaeda Rule 18: 'You must claim you were tortured.' " He wrote that the manual doesn't prove "that the Britons were not tortured in Guantanamo. But it ought to encourage some doubts about uncritically accepting that they were--which seems to be the attitude adopted by most of the media." Amen to both points in that last sentence.

Of course, no one is talking about the other part of the Amnesty Report that calls for the leaders of the United States of America to be taken prisoner!!

Rule 18. A different omission marred the reporting of Amnesty International's report charging torture in U.S. detainment camps. The group didn't just call Guantanamo a "gulag," an over-the-top remark that was universally reported. In a press release that most reporters ignored, the group also invited foreign governments to snatch certain visiting American officials off the streets and bring them to trial for crimes against humanity. The suggested snatchees, should they travel abroad, were President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA Director George Tenet, and other unnamed civilian and military officials. Amnesty International said that "all states have a responsibility to investigate and prosecute people responsible for these crimes," just as the British pounced on Augusto Pinochet in London in 1998. The snatching recommendation wasn't new, but the Amnesty press release is a useful reminder of the dangers of signing on to the International Criminal Court.

Link to both stories

162729[/snapback]

Jenny, you are a Goddess indeed!

Is it so hard for others to see through this smokescreen? Not too many folks are bringing up the $$$$ thrown to the Kerry campaign and the DNC as a whole by Amnesty. Conflict of interest anyone?

[Tiger Al 0]

All I am seeing is a bunch of double speak. Schulz says he has "absolutely no idea" whether the International Red Cross had been given access...... Sounds like they are doing a hell of a lot of speculating. Of course, speculation is the basis of most of these charges anyway.

You're cutting a few corners to try and get that red-herring across the road. One, he said he had no idea if IRC had been given access to ALL prisoners. Why won't the people at Gitmo come clean on this? Seems pretty simple...has IRC seen all prisoners, yes or no? Second, since Schulz doesn't work for IRC, the fact that he doesn't know if they've seen all the prisoners means what?

Here's another tactic used by the blame America crowd, and there are numeous instances of its use here over the past year; make a statement then backpeddle when confronted. Once again, the anti-Americans at AI said Gitmo has "become the gulag of our times." In your piece above, we see Schulz starting to crawfish. He says, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy." WHAT??!! You either said it or you didn't, Billy Boy. Now which is it? Of course, no one in their right mind would ever expect these morons to be men enough to stand by what they say.

Again, you are hell-bent to force that red-herring out there. The word "analogy" doesn't mean "quote." And, to answer your question, read the article again and you'll see that Schulz didn't make the "gulag" statement. It clearly says that both the statement AND the report came from AI's headquarters in London. Schulz is the head of the Amnesty International USA. He didn't "crawfish" at all. He said, when asked about the gulag comparison, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy. But there are some similarities. The United States is maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared ... And in some cases, at least, we know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed." This was intended for the benefit of overreactors like you who automatically want to go down a checklist and compare Gitmo to the Solovetsky Islands. In your next paragraph you use an imperfect analogy to deride liberals with comparisons to European appeasement and Hitler, so I think your "outrage" at the gulag analogy is overly forced.

Does anyone else find it ironic that these Bush bashers that are so outraged by the mishandling of the muslims koran are so vehemently opposed to our own bible? God help the person that says "Amen" in school, because the ACLU and other democrats will be on them like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat. But let an American soldier guarding a murderer at Gitmo sneeze within 20 feet of the koran and all hell breaks loose.

Not ironic at all. Not only do we hate America, but we also hate God. At least the white man's God. We hate white people, too.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

You're cutting a few corners to try and get that red-herring across the road. One, he said he had no idea if IRC had been given access to ALL prisoners. Why won't the people at Gitmo come clean on this? Seems pretty simple...has IRC seen all prisoners, yes or no? Second, since Schulz doesn't work for IRC, the fact that he doesn't know if they've seen all the prisoners means what?

So, by your twisted logic, throwing blind speculation into circulation is justified. Hey man, I have no idea what goes on behind the doors of Howard Dean's office, but I heard a guy say that this dude he knows saw Dean wearing womens clothing and singing show tunes. I have no proof he did these things, but until Dean himself comes forward and disputes my allegations, then I hold these to be the truth.

Again, you are hell-bent to force that red-herring out there. The word "analogy" doesn't mean "quote." And, to answer your question, read the article again and you'll see that Schulz didn't make the "gulag" statement. It clearly says that both the statement AND the report came from AI's headquarters in London. Schulz is the head of the Amnesty International USA. He didn't "crawfish" at all. He said, when asked about the gulag comparison, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy. But there are some similarities. The United States is maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared ... And in some cases, at least, we know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed." This was intended for the benefit of overreactors like you who automatically want to go down a checklist and compare Gitmo to the Solovetsky Islands. In your next paragraph you use an imperfect analogy to deride liberals with comparisons to European appeasement and Hitler, so I think your "outrage" at the gulag analogy is overly forced.

If Schulz doesn't believe the comparison of Gitmo to a gulag to be accurate, maybe he should come out and say so instead of defending "his London office". It was said, and either he buys into it or he doesn't. He has proven thus far that he does support the charge. Now that the heat is on him for being stupid, he is in backpeddle mode.

As far as deep ended rhetoric goes, your assumption that anyone that dares call out these liars as right wing kool aid drinkers is pretty silly as well. This same crap happened with the Rathergate memos. If it hadn't been for people calling him on a blatent lie, who knows where it would have led.

Read your history books, dude. The liberal approach was to appease Hitler. Aim your search for facts towards the New England democrats and see what their stance was. Pretty much what their stance is today.

Not ironic at all. Not only do we hate America, but we also hate God. At least the white man's God. We hate white people, too.

Good! Admission is half the cure.

Not only do we hate America, but we also hate God.

Proven time and again

At least the white man's God.

This is why we celebrate Kwanzaa without fear of an ACLU lawsuit, but get bullied by the lawyers when we hang a candy cane from a Christmas tree at the county courthouse.

We hate white people, too

Not all of them, just the ones that decide to get off their asses and make something of themselves, rather than sit around and suckle at the governments teat.

[Tiger Al 0]

So, by your twisted logic, throwing blind speculation into circulation is justified. Hey man, I have no idea what goes on behind the doors of Howard Dean's office, but I heard a guy say that this dude he knows saw Dean wearing womens clothing and singing show tunes. I have no proof he did these things, but until Dean himself comes forward and disputes my allegations, then I hold these to be the truth.

There was no blind speculation. He knows the ICRC has seen some prisoners. He said he didn't know if they'd seen all of them. He's not saying that no torture has occurred among the ones seen by ICRC so torture MUST'VE occurred among the ones NOT seen by them, is he? THAT would be speculation. Why are the folks at Gitmo stonewalling? Are they hiding something?

If Schulz doesn't believe the comparison of Gitmo to a gulag to be accurate, maybe he should come out and say so instead of defending "his London office". It was said, and either he buys into it or he doesn't. He has proven thus far that he does support the charge. Now that the heat is on him for being stupid, he is in backpeddle mode.

He didn't seem to backpeddle to me, nor has the London office.

Why is the charge stupid? Do you really think AI or ICRC is coming down on this place only because some Korans appear to have been mishandled? Have prisoners not been tortured, many times to death, in both Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? And, just to be clear, I'm not equating bumping into a Koran with torture.