What do you mean by "street ball?"

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

I see a lot of posts frustrated with the team's offense refer to what we are doing as "street ball." I'm curious by what you mean when you post that? Genuinely interested as to what everyone thinks "street ball" is. 

[Dual-Threat Rigby 9,708]

My interpretation is that it’s just unorganized, like the same type of stuff you’d see if 5 guys just played together at the rec 

 

Which it doesn’t look that far from that at times imo lol 

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

As in the coaches don't have a plan unorganized or as in the players aren't doing what the coach want unorganized?  

 

Anyone else? I'm asking because I want to help fans recognize what they are looking at, but in order for me to do so, I need to know what they are watching and calling stree ball. 

[cole256 17,085]

I'm interested in how this doesn't turn into an argument

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

2 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I'm interested in how this doesn't turn into an argument

After some of the posts about this team and coaches I'm about ready for one. Did you know the coaches are actually making the players worse in practice? 

[NoALtiger 4,272]

You honestly need a definition of what street ball is?

[Tiger 8,905]

We are a ball screen heavy offense and when your primary ballhandlers are average combined with obvious shortcomings elsewhere on the roster, particularly lack of shooting, it will look unorganized as we try to find any way at all to score.

[JerryAU 2,059]

4 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

I see a lot of posts frustrated with the team's offense refer to what we are doing as "street ball." I'm curious by what you mean when you post that? Genuinely interested as to what everyone thinks "street ball" is. 

Undisciplined, a lack of focus and attention to detail.

You know, they're all willy-nilly, a lot of lolly-gagging, dilly-dallying with some fiddle-farting & *****-footin' around mixed in.  

They don't look like a well-coached team thus far, but there's still plenty of time to jerk 'em in gear. 

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

So I'm going to make some assumptions on what many see and think it is street ball. Those things would be things like: one-on-one plays, shots without making a pass or only one pass, and standing around and not moving off the ball (feel free to add to this). There are a few reasons you would see some of that in a Bruce Pearl coached team.

First is BP wants to play fast. So we are going to push the ball on almost every miss/turnover, and even on many makes. This leads to transition style offense which is NOT scripted, but is designed to flow within certain concepts. THose concepts usually will include players who are supposed to cut/rim run based on position and location on the court, ball handlers who are to receive the outlet and find a cutter, lane fillers who fill gaps or find space and a trailer who is usually a big that outlets the ball who is to trail a play and if nothing presents itself on the fast break is to be the key to moving into the next phase of offense. 

The next phase of offense is a secondary break. It is a transition from fast break to the main offensive set, but is a designated transition meant to generate a quick scoring look before moving into a set. We typically utilize a big at the top of the key to either set a high ball screen or swing action. A LOT of our offense comes during the secondary break phase, which is also NOT scripted but within a framework, and will look different each time it is run for the most part. 

Before we get into a description of our primary sets I want to discuss a principle that every good team uses from AAU on up. That principle is the read-react principle. I can be called different things, but is basically a set of "rules" of what a player should do if a defense shows him a certain look. i.e. if you READ X you should REACT Y. A player making a read can deviate from an offensive flow/set at any moment to get an open shot. With teams that play at a high tempo (most rely heavily on read-react) they will take a shot on 75% (my personal estimate) of possessions using read-react principles before ever getting to their offensive sets. While it will produce some bad reads/shots and at times look chaotic, it is by design and intended to lure the other team into playing your tempo of game. 

I personally believe what may of you see as "street ball" is simply our players not executing the read-react principles very well. Part of that is it requires multiple players to make the same read at the same time and execute on it. New faces, roles, rotations, etc...is part of that and why I think we will improve on it with time. Read-react offense is actually very difficult to do at a high level because it requires all 5 on the floor have an understanding of what is happening and to make the same reads. That i why at times this type of team with get stagnant/standing around because they are each waiting on the other to do something to create a read opportunity. This is something they have all done before in AAU and other settings but it takes time to understand one another. 

IF a player hasn't done much of this before and is having to do more thinking than they are accustomed to it can take them out of rhythm and effect their abilities to do basic things like make a jump shoot because their head is spinning. That may be part of what is going on with new guys like Broome, Chance and Traore, speculation on my part, and why others like Donaldson seem so comfortable. 

 

[JwgreDeux 1,279]

3 hours ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

My interpretation is that it’s just unorganized, like the same type of stuff you’d see if 5 guys just played together at the rec 

 

Which it doesn’t look that far from that at times imo lol 

 

1 hour ago, NoALtiger said:

You honestly need a definition of what street ball is?

Yes. It means different things to different people and different things in different places. Some think it is what kids do at the student ACT or a local rec center. I would have said it is the type of play that goes on at outdoor courts where I grew up playing that involves a lot of iso one-on-one ball where rules are liberally enforced. There would be other say something different altogether. 

Additionally, they way it is used as an insult by some can be in poor taste.

[Dual-Threat Rigby 9,708]

46 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

 

Yes. It means different things to different people and different things in different places. Some think it is what kids do at the student ACT or a local rec center. I would have said it is the type of play that goes on at outdoor courts where I grew up playing that involves a lot of iso one-on-one ball where rules are liberally enforced. There would be other say something different altogether. 

Additionally, they way it is used as an insult by some can be in poor taste.

I think if someone is using it to simply point out the impotence of the offense this season and the lack of real ball sharing instincts amongst some of the players or in reference to what the coaches are teaching/allowing, that’s fine 

Now I can see what you’re implying or referring to in the last part as well. I haven’t seen any of that personally but I’m sure it exists somewhere. I feel as if the majority are meaning it to be negative but not in that type of derogatory way

[Dual-Threat Rigby 9,708]

57 minutes ago, JwgreDeux said:

So I'm going to make some assumptions on what many see and think it is street ball. Those things would be things like: one-on-one plays, shots without making a pass or only one pass, and standing around and not moving off the ball (feel free to add to this). There are a few reasons you would see some of that in a Bruce Pearl coached team.

First is BP wants to play fast. So we are going to push the ball on almost every miss/turnover, and even on many makes. This leads to transition style offense which is NOT scripted, but is designed to flow within certain concepts. THose concepts usually will include players who are supposed to cut/rim run based on position and location on the court, ball handlers who are to receive the outlet and find a cutter, lane fillers who fill gaps or find space and a trailer who is usually a big that outlets the ball who is to trail a play and if nothing presents itself on the fast break is to be the key to moving into the next phase of offense. 

The next phase of offense is a secondary break. It is a transition from fast break to the main offensive set, but is a designated transition meant to generate a quick scoring look before moving into a set. We typically utilize a big at the top of the key to either set a high ball screen or swing action. A LOT of our offense comes during the secondary break phase, which is also NOT scripted but within a framework, and will look different each time it is run for the most part. 

Before we get into a description of our primary sets I want to discuss a principle that every good team uses from AAU on up. That principle is the read-react principle. I can be called different things, but is basically a set of "rules" of what a player should do if a defense shows him a certain look. i.e. if you READ X you should REACT Y. A player making a read can deviate from an offensive flow/set at any moment to get an open shot. With teams that play at a high tempo (most rely heavily on read-react) they will take a shot on 75% (my personal estimate) of possessions using read-react principles before ever getting to their offensive sets. While it will produce some bad reads/shots and at times look chaotic, it is by design and intended to lure the other team into playing your tempo of game. 

I personally believe what may of you see as "street ball" is simply our players not executing the read-react principles very well. Part of that is it requires multiple players to make the same read at the same time and execute on it. New faces, roles, rotations, etc...is part of that and why I think we will improve on it with time. Read-react offense is actually very difficult to do at a high level because it requires all 5 on the floor have an understanding of what is happening and to make the same reads. That i why at times this type of team with get stagnant/standing around because they are each waiting on the other to do something to create a read opportunity. This is something they have all done before in AAU and other settings but it takes time to understand one another. 

IF a player hasn't done much of this before and is having to do more thinking than they are accustomed to it can take them out of rhythm and effect their abilities to do basic things like make a jump shoot because their head is spinning. That may be part of what is going on with new guys like Broome, Chance and Traore, speculation on my part, and why others like Donaldson seem so comfortable. 

 

Great post. I think calling it Street ball can be a misnomer, but when you consider how much CBP puts in the hands of the players (even your own posts essentially boils down to the guys’ instincts being the ultimate driver of the offense), it can definitely look like street ball for large stretches. 
 

But the system on its own can’t be purely street ball or it wouldn’t be as indefensible as it is when you have a Cooper, or Harper or half of last season. And I think that’s the bigger problem than the system itself - we just don’t have a change up if the defense can slog down the game for our players. If they can make us think, we’re screwed. That’s been my biggest problem with our system in the last few years 

[Dual-Threat Rigby 9,708]

I’ll be definitely hated after this one but it’s almost like the Gus offenses of yesteryear. If you can just play mindlessly and feed off of energy, Auburn has the best offense you’ll see. If you have to sit down and problem solve, we look like we shouldn’t be ranked.

 

Auburn fans are as reactive as anyone in the NCAA, but I don’t think it’s entirely incorrect to acknowledge that we have more variability than the vast majority of programs, especially good ones…and some times that acknowledgement is worded in explosive language that may not be entirely correct lol 

[AUGoo 2,776]

1 hour ago, JwgreDeux said:

Those things would be things like: one-on-one plays, shots without making a pass or only one pass, and standing around and not moving off the ball

add not passing when it's clear there is nothing there or backing out of the attack to set up an O.

1 hour ago, JwgreDeux said:

I personally believe what may of you see as "street ball" is simply our players not executing the read-react principles very well.

What do you call it when this happens?  It's at this point it breaks down into t he above.

 

Thank you for the explanation.  I really appreciate the insight.  It will help my watching and likely decrease my cursing during games.

Am equally glad to hear your optimism.

[printforfood 1]

2 hours ago, JerryAU said:

Undisciplined, a lack of focus and attention to detail.

You know, they're all willy-nilly, a lot of lolly-gagging, dilly-dallying with some fiddle-farting & *****-footin' around mixed in.  

They don't look like a well-coached team thus far, but there's still plenty of time to jerk 'em in gear. 

This is spot on. Blocking out , taking crazy shots from almost half court , playing out of control…. . There is plenty of hustle just need to be in control . Not all possessions need to end in an ESPN highlight 

[cole256 17,085]

5 hours ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

Great post. I think calling it Street ball can be a misnomer, but when you consider how much CBP puts in the hands of the players (even your own posts essentially boils down to the guys’ instincts being the ultimate driver of the offense), it can definitely look like street ball for large stretches. 
 

But the system on its own can’t be purely street ball or it wouldn’t be as indefensible as it is when you have a Cooper, or Harper or half of last season. And I think that’s the bigger problem than the system itself - we just don’t have a change up if the defense can slog down the game for our players. If they can make us think, we’re screwed. That’s been my biggest problem with our system in the last few years 

Good post. Hence me saying what I said last year and going on as far as wish we had Mark. I'm telling you if we had Mark last year we're a final 4 team easy.

Also this shows how important making the right decisions are in basketball recruiting. 

[NWALA Tiger 3,955]

It's a long season BBALL is a tournament sport. You want to be peaking in March, not Dec. That said, we have glaring weaknesses. We can't hit the broad side of a barn. Westry and Trarore look lost.   Still time to correct, but the overall talent isn't there,  especially offensively. Difference this year we don't have Jabari to bail us out.

 

[cole256 17,085]

8 hours ago, JwgreDeux said:

After some of the posts about this team and coaches I'm about ready for one. Did you know the coaches are actually making the players worse in practice? 

I haven't seen that on here this year as I haven't been on here except when someone PM me to come and give an opinion or I get a notification when someone mentions me.

But a long long time ago. I'm pretty sure it was the team with cim Bowers....but anyway around this time the basketball forum didn't have too much activity but we started having a pulse and now people were participating more on here.

And when people would complain it would be the street ball no discipline stuff. And I would write all these posts similar to what you just wrote. I literally asked for opinions of what is meant just like you just did. I would explain how Pearl was letting us play comparatively to Golden State and I was explaining why he was ok with Bowers starting fast breaks and pushing the ball and etc...

Of course my stuff had to become arguments and people were angry and all of that. Actually i think that was the first year of the streak I had. After that it seemed like every year there would be one opinion that I would have that would make EVERYBODY get so damn angry and when you look back no lies were told. That's why I said I was interested in this not becoming an argument because it really pissed some people off explaining street ball isn't a negative trope as some make it to be at times. 

But back then Pearl wasn't as loved yet and didn't have as much trust as he does now so maybe it won't be as I expect.

[Dual-Threat Rigby 9,708]

10 hours ago, cole256 said:

Good post. Hence me saying what I said last year and going on as far as wish we had Mark. I'm telling you if we had Mark last year we're a final 4 team easy.

Also this shows how important making the right decisions are in basketball recruiting. 

I’m still of the opinion we didn’t need him specifically, but if he was as interested in us as you said, he certainly had the skills I would’ve wanted. 
 

It really stinks bc we had an available scholarship and could’ve pulled out another from Stretch. We really have available guard minutes as I don’t think we ideally want to use Zep much in these offensive oriented games. We could’ve definitely found a spot for another guard

[AuburnNTexas 7,489]

First of all street ball is more organized then people realize.  If you go to the courts in Compton, New York, etc. and watch the games you will see a lot more organization then what you would have assumed. These players have been playing ball since they could dribble and shoot. These players have played team ball at schools AAU clubs at the Y, etc. They understand the game better then the casual fan.  On the play grounds you see screens, pick and rolls, double teams, quick passes off of rebounds leading to fast breaks. You see players taking correct lanes on a fast break.  It is a different brand of basketball then what you see at schools like Princeton where every thing is slow and choreographed which is done to fit the talent.

As JwgreDeux stated it is read and re-act and teams that play this style usually get better as they play together and get to know each other.  Pearl's offense obviously work better when you have a couple of pure shooters to keep teams honest and the other weakness I see this year is weaker then usual defensive rebounding. Better defensive rebounding leads to more fast breaks. As long and athletic as this team is we should be better rebounding in watching our games I see the weakside defenders often slightly out of position which can kill a team that relies on trapping defense. When the other team gets an offensive rebound in addition to allowing them to keep the ball and possibly scoring it takes away a fast break or secondary fast break opportunity.

A lot of Pearl's offense is based on our defense and people spend to much time looking at defense as mano a mano defense and don't see how much of it is based on teamwork which takes time to develop. We will get better but this team has a ceiling unless we can find a way to hit the 3 at a high enough percentage to force teams to play us honest.

 

[AuburnNTexas 7,489]

10 hours ago, cole256 said:

Good post. Hence me saying what I said last year and going on as far as wish we had Mark. I'm telling you if we had Mark last year we're a final 4 team easy.

Also this shows how important making the right decisions are in basketball recruiting. 

I totally agree with you about Mark. A PG who can facilitate, shoot the 3 and score even against top competitions is they key to playing Pearl's style of basketball. Green is the closest we have to that but he is either hot as a firecracker or cold. We also need a 2 with a great shot and a killer attitude. We don't have that at this time even though I think Westry can develop into that type of 2 and I have a feeling that I can see Donaldson developing into a solid PG. Time will tell.

Edited December 16, 2022 by AuburnNTexas

[DAG 36,008]

12 hours ago, cole256 said:

But back then Pearl wasn't as loved yet

Well I am glad I got the truth because people make it seem like he had fanfare as soon as he was hired.

[Win4AU 4,283]

I love that Bruce let’s his guys play and makes them play through rough patches.  What I don’t like is transitioning and having KD, Wendell or whoever run down the court and throw up some garbage half court 3 without allowing the rest of the team a chance to get down the court, get set, and see what the defense gives them.  It’s like an uptempo football offense repeatedly going 3&out.  2-20 from 3pt is not an offense that breads success.  

[cole256 17,085]

We actually need a little more street to us. We need to be tougher. We need a chip on our shoulder. We also need a leader. We need a guy at guard who will walk on the court against number one teams and not be intimidated in the least. 

Last year even the games we won I pointed out how panicked and out of control we would be against the good teams. You can see it, and you better believe the opponents watch it. We just need an alpha guard. The team will follow suit when you have that guy. Promise I'm not just making it up.

 

[cole256 17,085]

4 hours ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

I’m still of the opinion we didn’t need him specifically, but if he was as interested in us as you said, he certainly had the skills I would’ve wanted. 
 

It really stinks bc we had an available scholarship and could’ve pulled out another from Stretch. We really have available guard minutes as I don’t think we ideally want to use Zep much in these offensive oriented games. We could’ve definitely found a spot for another guard

Who did we need?