Biblical Marriage

[I_M4_AU 7,987]

6 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

No.

I guess I must have misunderstood what the L and the G was in LGBTQ acronym.  Can you explain what those mean?

[Leftfield 2,654]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

I guess I must have misunderstood what the L and the G was in LGBTQ acronym.  Can you explain what those mean?

The funny thing is, you actually thought this was clever when you typed it.

 

[arein0 977]

6 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Can you show where God’s plan for some is to be gay?

If homosexuality is not a choice, like we've been talking about, then all homosexuals were created by God to, wait for it, be homosexual. Gods plan was for them to be homosexual. Condemning or forcing them to be heterosexual is admission you "know" more than God and believe He messed up.

[I_M4_AU 7,987]

17 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

The funny thing is, you actually thought this was clever when you typed it.

 

So you don’t know?

[jj3jordan 2,060]

10 minutes ago, arein0 said:

If homosexuality is not a choice, like we've been talking about, then all homosexuals were created by God to, wait for it, be homosexual. Gods plan was for them to be homosexual. Condemning or forcing them to be heterosexual is admission you "know" more than God and believe He messed up.

Gods plan for Adam and Eve was heterosexual since He created them male and female. They were to become one flesh and procreate. That much should be clear to anyone. Is there another Biblical reference that intimates that God said that male/male and female/female was also another way to utilize the provided aiming device and receptacle? If not then it would appear that you, not me, are alleging that God “messed up” and forgot to be inclusive of those He created differently. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,169]

25 minutes ago, arein0 said:

If homosexuality is not a choice, like we've been talking about, then all homosexuals were created by God to, wait for it, be homosexual. Gods plan was for them to be homosexual. Condemning or forcing them to be heterosexual is admission you "know" more than God and believe He messed up.

The easy "get out of jail" card all Christians eventually turn to in this argument is "Adam and eve, original sin, Satan etc"

Of which just shows that God DID mess up because he created Adam and eve to be easily manipulated, and he allowed Satan to enter into his perfect creation and influence his creations. 

the "Free will" argument doesn't work either because ultimately sin isn't a choice. Everyone will sin..guaranteed. Jesus was the only non-sinning human to ever exist. How can God v sin really be a choice and free will when nobody can possibly live a life without sin? They can only possibly "choose" God in a certain # of situations till they are influenced to sin. 

Same with Adam and Eve...it was inevitable they would break down and sin eventually and eat of the fruit because God created them imperfect and with a "free will" that would inevitable always make the wrong choice eventually. 

 Ultimately Adam and Eves fall and sin infiltrating mankind was in Gods plan and vision all along because that's what God created humans to do...to sin and fall short of his Glory and his will. Adam and eve were then used as a scapegoat so that future generations had someone to blame for all the hurt and suffering in the world when in reality Adam and Eve were created by God to fail from the start. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[arein0 977]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

Gods plan for Adam and Eve was heterosexual since He created them male and female. They were to become one flesh and procreate. That much should be clear to anyone. Is there another Biblical reference that intimates that God said that male/male and female/female was also another way to utilize the provided aiming device and receptacle? If not then it would appear that you, not me, are alleging that God “messed up” and forgot to be inclusive of those He created differently. 

these conversations where we are talking about one avenue, homosexuality is not a choice, then you revert back to your default line of thinking, homosexuality is a choice, is insufferable. I've already said a ton of times here if homosexuality is a choice you are right.

Everything you have tried to argue about homosexuality being a sin even if it is not a choice are statements that God messed up and you know more than God, and when called out on it, get mad and revert back to your arguments for if homosexuality is a choice, which is already settled!

Maybe I'm wasting my time arguing this point because apparently some people have it so ingrained in their head that homosexuality is a choice that it is impossible to even entertain the idea that it's not. 

[jj3jordan 2,060]

1 minute ago, arein0 said:

these conversations where we are talking about one avenue, homosexuality is not a choice, then you revert back to your default line of thinking, homosexuality is a choice, is insufferable. I've already said a ton of times here if homosexuality is a choice you are right.

Everything you have tried to argue about homosexuality being a sin even if it is not a choice are statements that God messed up and you know more than God, and when called out on it, get mad and revert back to your arguments for if homosexuality is a choice, which is already settled!

Maybe I'm wasting my time arguing this point because apparently some people have it so ingrained in their head that homosexuality is a choice that it is impossible to even entertain the idea that it's not. 

Stop banging your cranium; it is giving you a concussion. I believe homosexuality is a choice. Period. And it is a sin. I’m sorry you think I am getting mad. I am not. I don’t know more than God. To me, homosexuality is a choice so it is settled in my mind. It is not impossible to entertain that it is not a choice, however, there is no evidence of that as yet. No gay gene. I know this would be a fantastic victory for God haters everywhere because they can point to it and attempt to nullify the Bible in its entirety.  Similar to the elusive God particle. Any search from the smallest atom component to the entire universe to ultimately disprove an almighty God is the holy grail of skeptics like you. Searching fruitlessly for any reason to not feel compelled to believe and follow the Bible. That feeling which drives your desire to disprove God is actually the Holy Spirit convicting you of your rebellious spirit. You need that “proof” so you won’t be responsible for your own personal belief. Coffees response to you above also an attempt to argue basically that God messed up somehow because He created people with free will and they chose poorly. God wants us to choose Him but sometimes we make poor choices, learn from them, and move on still believing and trusting God, accepting Jesus as our Savior, and trying to live a better life. Or we harden our heart to His message under the influence of Satan and refuse to allow His righteousness and promise of salvation to enter our hearts. That is also a choice.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 hours ago, arein0 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since I pointed out that both sides argument is dependent on whether or not homosexuality is a choice, every single "point" you made has been a red herring. You switched from arguing in good faith, realized I was right that both arguments depended on the key word choice, and switched to red herrings. Now if you want claim the "win" for me being the first to ad hominem then sure take that "win" but we both know you were the first to bow out of the argument when you switched to your red herrings.

Still living in your head, aren't I? Use better logic next time and I won't embarrass you (you likewise will avoid embarrassing yourself). If we are to approve sexuality on ground that "people are just born that way," we must approve the (ludicrous) extension of that logic as well. This is your premise, sir, and it's a flawed one. 

Do better in the future, and I won't campout in your head.  

[icanthearyou 4,463]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

Gods plan for Adam and Eve was heterosexual since He created them male and female.

I suppose his plan for their offspring was to be homosexual since they were both sons?

Maybe you should stop pretending your understanding of the Old Testament is the correct one and, listen to the words of Jesus which are consistently a call for us to love one another, not persecute and judge?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

12 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Stop banging your cranium; it is giving you a concussion.

We've more than sufficiently exposed the flawed logic he endorses. He not happy!

[arein0 977]

15 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Still living in your head, aren't I? Use better logic next time and I won't embarrass you (you likewise will avoid embarrassing yourself). If we are to approve sexuality on ground that "people are just born that way," we must approve the (ludicrous) extension of that logic as well. This is your premise, sir, and it's a flawed one. 

Do better in the future, and I won't campout in your head.  

Red herrings are fallacies not logic.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, arein0 said:

Red herrings are fallacies not logic.

How ironic, Mr. Ad Hominem. 

[arein0 977]

Just now, NolaAuTiger said:

How ironic, Mr. Ad Hominem. 

I never denied that, Mr. Red Herring.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

Just now, arein0 said:

I never denied that, Mr. Red Herring.

Are you hitting on me?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

24 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Stop banging your cranium; it is giving you a concussion. I believe homosexuality is a choice. Period. And it is a sin. I’m sorry you think I am getting mad. I am not. I don’t know more than God. To me, homosexuality is a choice so it is settled in my mind. It is not impossible to entertain that it is not a choice, however, there is no evidence of that as yet. No gay gene. I know this would be a fantastic victory for God haters everywhere because they can point to it and attempt to nullify the Bible in its entirety.  Similar to the elusive God particle. Any search from the smallest atom component to the entire universe to ultimately disprove an almighty God is the holy grail of skeptics like you. Searching fruitlessly for any reason to not feel compelled to believe and follow the Bible. That feeling which drives your desire to disprove God is actually the Holy Spirit convicting you of your rebellious spirit. You need that “proof” so you won’t be responsible for your own personal belief. Coffees response to you above also an attempt to argue basically that God messed up somehow because He created people with free will and they chose poorly. God wants us to choose Him but sometimes we make poor choices, learn from them, and move on still believing and trusting God, accepting Jesus as our Savior, and trying to live a better life. Or we harden our heart to His message under the influence of Satan and refuse to allow His righteousness and promise of salvation to enter our hearts. That is also a choice.

Defy the calling to love, to spread the love of Jesus.

Go to the temple with the Pharisees, judge condemn those who are "not worthy".  Blame the poor for their circumstances and condition.  Deny assistance to the refugees.  Impose your will through economic and military power.

The goal has never been, to know the bible.  The goal is to know the love of Jesus.

 

[jj3jordan 2,060]

7 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I suppose his plan for their offspring was to be homosexual since they were both sons?

Maybe you should stop pretending your understanding of the Old Testament is the correct one and, listen to the words of Jesus which are consistently a call for us to love one another, not persecute and judge?

Did you think that was all the children Eve had? Gen 5:4. The Old Testament is just fine. I am not persecuting anyone. God is the judge. Please address your grievances to Him. When you approach God, please advise Him of your assessment of His Old Testament. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

1 minute ago, jj3jordan said:

Did you think that was all the children Eve had? Gen 5:4. The Old Testament is just fine. I am not persecuting anyone. God is the judge. Please address your grievances to Him. When you approach God, please advise Him of your assessment of His Old Testament. 

No.  You are persecuting, judging, excluding. 

Jesus already addressed how the children of Israel had lost God in scripture, law, tradition, custom.

I am afraid you are lost.  Find the love of Jesus.  Jesus is love.  Jesus left us with a very specific command and calling.  Using scripture and law to defy Jesus is exactly the ground the Pharisees stood upon.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Defying the calling of Jesus to love is,,, the ultimate hypocrisy.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Can you show where God’s plan for some is to be gay?

But even if one accepts @arein0's premise that homosexuality is not a choice, it still does not move the needle. Under his view, one could maintain that sinning is not a choice and, thus, sinning is "God's plan." The latter portion is where his premise falls apart. The notion that homosexuality is not a choice, does not dictate homosexuality as "God's plan." 

[CoffeeTiger 5,169]

59 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Coffees response to you above also an attempt to argue basically that God messed up somehow because He created people with free will and they chose poorly. God wants us to choose Him but sometimes we make poor choices, learn from them, and move on still believing and trusting God, accepting Jesus as our Savior, and trying to live a better life. Or we harden our heart to His message under the influence of Satan and refuse to allow His righteousness and promise of salvation to enter our hearts. That is also a choice.

As i argued. God created people. God created the angel that eventually became Satan. God created sin. God created the concept of free will. 

God created and controlled it all did he not? Are you arguing that God lost some sort of control anywhere in the process? 

Humans, including Adam and Eve were created imperfectly by God and were created with the ability and propensity to sin and turn against God. When humans finally did what God created them to do, God forever punished the rest of humanity. You blame the sin on 'free will' , but it's not really free will if you are created to eventually make the bad choice. 

We have free will in any individual situation, but as I said, humans were created to sin eventually. Adam and Eve sinned just as they were created to. Every human being God has ever created has sinned. Yet we're to believe that Adam and Eve were the lone exception and somehow had the possibility of forever choosing not to sin? 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[SaltyTiger 7,859]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

As i argued. God did mess up.  God created people. God created the angel that eventually became Satan. God created sin. God created the concept of free will. 

God created and controlled it all did he not? Are you arguing that God lost some sort of control anywhere in the process? 

Humans, including Adam and Eve were created imperfectly by God and were created with the ability and propensity to sin and turn against God. When humans finally did what God created them to do, God forever punished the rest of humanity. You blame the sin on 'free will' , but it's not really free will if you are created to eventually make the bad choice. 

We have free will in any individual situation, but as I said, humans were created to sin eventually. Adam and Eve sinned just as they were created to. Every human being God has ever created has sinned. Yet we're to believe that Adam and Eve were the lone exception and somehow had the possibility of forever choosing not to sin? 

God created Adam and Eve with the ability to make choices. Otherwise we would be robots. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

10 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

As i argued. God created people. God created the angel that eventually became Satan. God created sin. God created the concept of free will. 

God created and controlled it all did he not? Are you arguing that God lost some sort of control anywhere in the process? 

Humans, including Adam and Eve were created imperfectly by God and were created with the ability and propensity to sin and turn against God. When humans finally did what God created them to do, God forever punished the rest of humanity. You blame the sin on 'free will' , but it's not really free will if you are created to eventually make the bad choice. 

We have free will in any individual situation, but as I said, humans were created to sin eventually. Adam and Eve sinned just as they were created to. Every human being God has ever created has sinned. Yet we're to believe that Adam and Eve were the lone exception and somehow had the possibility of forever choosing not to sin? 

 

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/the-origin-of-sin/

Check this out if you're inclined. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

23 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

,,,

Can we address the real elephant in the room?

What do you have against ellipses? 

[SaltyTiger 7,859]

41 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The goal has never been, to know the bible.  The goal is to know the love of Jesus.

The topic is Biblical Marriage.