After going after stoves and generators, Biden Admin wants to control your Lighbulbs

[GoAU 1,600]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:23 AM, auburnatl1 said:

Simply and perfectly put.

And some people continue to disagree that this is the very fiber of the debate.  

28 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Forcing the birth of unwanted, unloved, out right resented children is no answer.  It lacks a sense of humanity and compassion.  We need to support the idea of family, at all income levels.  It would be great if we could return to the idea that one working adult can effectively, sufficiently support a family.

So, then it’s OK to kill them?   I do like that idea.  I’ve been blessed in that my wife wanted to and was able to stay home to raise our kids.  I realize not everyone has that option, but there are ways to avoid unwanted pregnancy….

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

The proposition that a fertilized egg or zygote - at least up to the first trimester - is an actual baby is false, ipso facto.  It's clearly irrational.

Which means it is only your opinion (typically based on religious dogma).

The fact there are many others with a different opinion - in fact many if not most polls suggest a majority - supports my case that Republicans have a proclivity to regulate the personal freedoms of people, especially those who don't share their opinions or religious dogma. 

(I'll consider the apparent fact you value a fertilized egg over an actual living woman as not being germane to the fundamental flaw in logic.)

 

My statement is pretty basic - the reason for the gap in the argument around abortion lies around the concept of when life begins.  It wasn’t that hard to figure out.  Based on your post, it’s safe to assume you don’t believe life begins at conception.  My opinion, and it is no more or less valuable than yours, may not be the same.   You can throw out the word “logic” as much as you want, but your point is still centered on your opinion, and that only.  
 

I fully concede there are “many others” with different opinions.  But you know what they say about opinions…..

[homersapien 11,373]

26 minutes ago, GoAU said:

And some people continue to disagree that this is the very fiber of the debate.  

So, then it’s OK to kill them?   I do like that idea.  I’ve been blessed in that my wife wanted to and was able to stay home to raise our kids.  I realize not everyone has that option, but there are ways to avoid unwanted pregnancy….

My statement is pretty basic - the reason for the gap in the argument around abortion lies around the concept of when life begins.  It wasn’t that hard to figure out.  Based on your post, it’s safe to assume you don’t believe life begins at conception.  My opinion, and it is no more or less valuable than yours, may not be the same.   You can throw out the word “logic” as much as you want, but your point is still centered on your opinion, and that only.  
 

I fully concede there are “many others” with different opinions.  But you know what they say about opinions…..

To claim a fertilized egg is (literally) a "baby" has nothing to do with "logic".  Now, if you want to be logical you could say that a fertilized egg has  the potential to be a baby.  That's logical.

The former is a personal belief - or opinion. 

You could even say its a metaphor. You just can't logically say it's an absolute truth.

Otherwise, yes, I agree you have just as much of a right to your opinion as I do mine.

But this discussion is really about one of us imposing their opinion on to others with legislation or "regulation".

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by homersapien

[icanthearyou 4,463]

24 minutes ago, GoAU said:

And some people continue to disagree that this is the very fiber of the debate.  

So, then it’s OK to kill them?   I do like that idea.  I’ve been blessed in that my wife wanted to and was able to stay home to raise our kids.  I realize not everyone has that option, but there are ways to avoid unwanted pregnancy….

My statement is pretty basic - the reason for the gap in the argument around abortion lies around the concept of when life begins.  It wasn’t that hard to figure out.  Based on your post, it’s safe to assume you don’t believe life begins at conception.  My opinion, and it is no more or less valuable than yours, may not be the same.   You can throw out the word “logic” as much as you want, but your point is still centered on your opinion, and that only.  
 

I fully concede there are “many others” with different opinions.  But you know what they say about opinions…..

No, not really.  The real debate is more about,,, what constitutes a human being.  The meaning of humanity is more important than some biological definition of "life".

Again, reducing humanity to the most basic biological definition, diminishes the meaning of humanity.

[Didba 5,256]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

Women needs the law to rationalize eliminating a child right before birth only because it is lawful.  If it’s lawful it’s moral to their thinking.  Otherwise they may have to take personal responsibility for their actions on a moral level if abortion happens after a certain period of time.

Now back to light bulbs.

Okay, well that’s pretty far off what you originally wrote but I see what you were trying to say not. IMO, it’s also probably wrong for 90% of women but it’s your opinion to which you are entitled.
 

Now. Lightbulbs. Let’s do some regulating. 

[Didba 5,256]

Homer’s got a point about opinions and such. When a child goes from a blastocyst to embryo to fetus is not an opinion.  That stuff is just medical fact. 

[homersapien 11,373]

30 minutes ago, GoAU said:

And some people continue to disagree that this is the very fiber of the debate.  

 

That hasn't been my experience.

I've been on this forum for years and debates on abortion always come down to this. I haven't seen anyone - who was thoughtful - who didn't recognize that.

[homersapien 11,373]

13 minutes ago, Didba said:

Now. Lightbulbs. Let’s do some regulating. 

All roads lead to "personal rights". 

Edited August 14, 2023 by homersapien

[Didba 5,256]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

All roads lead to "personal" rights. 

Don’t get them started on “state’s rights”…

State’s right to do what?

[homersapien 11,373]

Just now, Didba said:

Don’t get them started on “state’s rights”…

State’s right to do what?

Well, we've already touched on abortion in this thread, might as well hit the Civil War. 

(Or is that the "War of Northern Aggression"?)  

[homersapien 11,373]

8 minutes ago, Didba said:

Homer’s got a point about opinions and such. When a child goes from a blastocyst to embryo to fetus is not an opinion.  That stuff is just medical fact. 

It's also a medical fact that brain activity is generally judged to be the indicator of life.

(Whoops!  Here I go again bringing abortion back up. )

[auburnatl1 4,920]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

To claim a fertilized egg is (literally) a "baby" has nothing to do with "logic".  Now, if you want to be logical you could say that a fertilized egg has  the potential to be a baby.  That's logical.

The potential life argument is the Catholic church’s point at its extreme. Most women have the potential in a marriage to have 6-10, heck maybe 12 children.By birth control preventing this potential and only having 2 children you sacrificed roughly 6 children who could have had full lives.

I don’t agree with it, but I see the “logic” of this thinking once you start down the potential life path. Imo everyone has every right to have a position on abortion - the core question being when is pregnant woman 1 person or 2 . Good luck with that.  Damn subject hurts my head.

[homersapien 11,373]

11 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

The potential life argument is the Catholic church’s point at its extreme. Most women have the potential in a marriage to have 6-10, heck maybe 12 children.By birth control preventing this potential and only having 2 children you sacrificed roughly 6 children who could have had full lives.

I don’t agree with it, but I see the “logic” of this thinking once you start down the potential life path. Imo everyone has every right to have a position on abortion - the core question being when is pregnant woman 1 person or 2 . Good luck with that.  Damn subject hurts my head.

Logic based on a flawed premise is not a good thing. 

[Didba 5,256]

12 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

The potential life argument is the Catholic church’s point at its extreme. Most women have the potential in a marriage to have 6-10, heck maybe 12 children.By birth control preventing this potential and only having 2 children you sacrificed roughly 6 children who could have had full lives.

I don’t agree with it, but I see the “logic” of this thinking once you start down the potential life path. Imo everyone has every right to have a position on abortion - the core question being when is pregnant woman 1 person or 2 . Good luck with that.  Damn subject hurts my head.

That core question has been answered by doctors and medical science for years. 

[auburnatl1 4,920]

1 minute ago, Didba said:

That core question has been answered by doctors and medical science for years. 

I didn’t realize the entire medical science community  had reached consensus and put out a unified position paper on this. Must have missed it. Is there a link? I’d love to see it.

[Didba 5,256]

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

I didn’t realize the entire medical science community  had reached consensus and put out a unified position paper on this. Must have missed it. Is there a link? I’d love to see it.

I never said the entire medical science community had reached consensus and put out a unified position paper on this.

I was speaking to the developmental of a zygote into a morula, then to blastocyst, and finally into an embryo and fetus occurs in a very highly regulated, precise, and specific fashion is well established within the medical community. Further, it is well established that neural activity from the developing brain/neural systems can be detected between the 20-32 week mark.

Here is your link that covers the above, its cited sources are a wealth of knowledge as well: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp2268

glad you caught me on my lunch break or I wouldn't be able to do your research for you.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Didba

[auburnatl1 4,920]

2 hours ago, Didba said:

I never said the entire medical science community had reached consensus and put out a unified position paper on this.

I was speaking to the developmental of a zygote into a morula, then to blastocyst, and finally into an embryo and fetus occurs in a very highly regulated, precise, and specific fashion is well established within the medical community. Further, it is well established that neural activity from the developing brain/neural systems can be detected between the 20-32 week mark.

Here is your link that covers the above, its cited sources are a wealth of knowledge as well: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp2268

glad you caught me on my lunch break or I wouldn't be able to do your research for you.

I was playing with you. Respectfully, there is no rule set. Fetus? Heart function? Brain function? Full brain function? Lung function? Able to live unassisted outside of the womb? Unfortunately there is no wise old man on this one.

My son, who’s 6’5” and is getting his grad degree right now, was a premmie. We could have gotten a legal abortion for him in 7 states at that time.  It’s a tricky subject.

[Didba 5,256]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

I was playing with you. Respectfully, there is no rule set. Fetus? Heart function? Brain function? Full brain function? Lung function? Able to live unassisted outside of the womb? Unfortunately there is no wise old man on this one.

My son, who’s 6’5” and is getting his grad degree right now, was a premmie. We could have gotten a legal abortion for him in 7 states at that time.  It’s a tricky subject.

We agree on that. Sorry for missing the joke.