Baby killers at 8am - Trump calls on AL legislature to protect IVF @3pm - Guess what happens next.

[AU9377 4,931]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/trump-calls-on-alabama-legislature-to-protect-ivf-find-an-immediate-solution/ar-BB1iMJQu

[TexasTiger 12,869]

Curious— @TitanTiger do you believe life begins at conception?

[creed 1,635]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Curious— @TitanTiger do you believe life begins at conception?

I know you didn't ask me this question, but could you define life in way that is definite in it's interpreation?

[TexasTiger 12,869]

11 minutes ago, creed said:

I know you didn't ask me this question, but could you define life in way that is definite in it's interpreation?

That’s kinda the question.

[AU9377 4,931]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

That’s kinda the question.

The sad part is that we had a decision in Roe that considered all of these issues and adopted a trimester approach.  When I hear people on the far right talking about a nation wide 15 week ban, I scratch my head because that isn't a rock's throw from what we had under Roe.  Of course, there were exceptions that most sane people acknowledge.

[TexasTiger 12,869]

6 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

The sad part is that we had a decision in Roe that considered all of these issues and adopted a trimester approach.  When I hear people on the far right talking about a nation wide 15 week ban, I scratch my head because that isn't a rock's throw from what we had under Roe.  Of course, there were exceptions that most sane people acknowledge.

The two logical starting points are conception or viability. If you go with the first, you get this ruling.

[creed 1,635]

10 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

The two logical starting points are conception or viability. If you go with the first, you get this ruling.

What is "the" definition of viability?

[creed 1,635]

10 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

That’s kinda the question.

Okay. Here's a definition. Do you agree with it?

Life is a quality that distinguishes matter that has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from matter that does not, and is defined descriptively by the capacity for homeostasis, organisation, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction.

[homersapien 11,373]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:14 AM, creed said:

Okay. Here's a definition. Do you agree with iot?

Life is a quality that distinguishes matter that has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from matter that does not, and is defined descriptively by the capacity for homeostasis, organisation, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction.

That's WAY too generalized. It would apply to plants and bacteria (for example).

(Not to mention the word "independent" is left out - would an organism in the gestational phase qualify? Why?)

A better question in this case would be what determines "humanship"?

Edited February 25 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,373]

4 hours ago, creed said:

What is "the" definition of viability?

It varies with context.

[TexasTiger 12,869]

5 hours ago, creed said:

What is "the" definition of viability?

That’s arguable, too. Some might say capable of sustaining life without extraordinary measures. Others may include extraordinary measures. Others may disagree on what constitutes “extraordinary.”

[creed 1,635]

• 1 hour ago, homersapien said:

  That's WAY too generalized. It would apply to plants and bacteria (for example).

  (Not to mention the word "independent"  left out - would an organism in the gestational phase qualify? Why?)

  A better question in this case would be what determines "humanship"?

  So you introduced another term to the discussion so provide a definition of "humanship". TexasTiger do you want to rephrase you question to "when does humanship begin"?

[aubiefifty 16,791]

4 minutes ago, creed said:

• So you introduced another term to the discussion so provide a definition of "humanship". TexasTiger do you want to rephrase you question to "when does humanship begin"?

is there going to be a pop test?

[creed 1,635]

This is from the National Library of Medicine (NHI)

The Scientific Consensus on When a Human's Life Begins

Steven Andrew Jacobs ¹

Affiliations expand

• PMID: 36629778

Abstract

Peer-reviewed journals in the biological and life sciences literature have published articles that represent the biological view that a human's life begins at fertilization ("the fertilization view"). As those statements are typically offered without explanation or citation, the fertilization view seems to be uncontested by the editors, reviewers, and authors who contribute to scientific journals. However, Americans are split on whether the fertilization view is a "philosophical or religious belief" (45%) or a "biological and scientific fact" (46%), and only 38% of Americans view fertilization as the starting point of a human's life. In the two studies that explored experts' views on the matter, the fertilization view was the most popular perspective held by public health and IVF professionals. Since a recent study suggested that 80% of Americans view biologists as the group most qualified to determine when a human's life begins, experts in biology were surveyed to provide a new perspective to the literature on experts' views on this matter. Biologists from 1,058 academic institutions around the world assessed survey items on when a human's life begins and, overall, 96% (5337 out of 5577) affirmed the fertilization view. 

[creed 1,635]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

That's WAY too generalized. It would apply to plants and bacteria (for example).

(Not to mention the word "independent"  left out - would an organism in the gestational phase qualify? Why?)

A better question in this case would be what determines "humanship"?

This is from Princeton University on a google search of when does humanship begin.

As demonstrated above, the human embryo, who is a human being, begins at fertilizationónot at implantation (about 5-7 days), 14-days, or 3 weeks. Thus the embryonic period also begins at fertilization, and ends by the end of the eighth week, when the fetal period begins.

[homersapien 11,373]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:38 PM, creed said:

• So you introduced another term to the discussion so provide a definition of "humanship". TexasTiger do you want to rephrase you question to "when does humanship begin"?

I hoped that would be self-evident.  It's the same as "personhood".

(You can look these terms up, I didn't invent them.)

You can add another dimension to the discussion by recognizing that the biological aspect of the question does not necessarily determine the legal aspect, which is what is really at stake as a practical matter. 

Edited February 25 by homersapien

[creed 1,635]

17 hours ago, homersapien said:

I hoped that would be self-evident.  It's the same as "personhood".

(You can look these terms up, I didn't invent them.)

You can add another dimension to the discussion by recognizing that the biological aspect of the question does not necessarily determine the legal aspect, which is what is really at stake as a practical matter. 

"Personhood"....a very interesting topic and one that probably should be discussed outside of smack talk. Some legal aspects that come to mind (my mind) are:

- Is "Personhood" universal or can it change over time and by culture? 

- Is "Personhood" gained by meeting some criteria?

- Can "Personhood" be lost if you don't check all the criteria and what happens if you lose "Personhood"?

- Can you have partial "Personhood"? 

I'm sure I can come up with at least a dozen more legal points to ponder.

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited February 26 by creed

[AU9377 4,931]

I am waiting for someone to suggest that pregnant women that don't take their vitamins or monitor their health closely should be charged with negligent homicide should they miscarry.  Of course, that is unless the woman is their sister or someone they care about.

[I_M4_AU 7,833]

Update:

 

 

[AU9377 4,931]

3 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Update:

 

 

I fully support the legislation.  However, it does make the point that life doesn't begin with conception when they don't want it to or when that negatively impacts something they want and does when it is some random woman that they believe should have kept her legs closed.

I understand the argument about when conception occurs etc, my point nonetheless remains.  How can we as a society justify not allowing a woman to abort a fetus with catastrophic abnormalities, yet support the discarding of embryos with the same abnormalities?