Repent!

[homersapien 11,431]

On 4/14/2024 at 2:24 PM, SaltyTiger said:

You asked me 2 questions and made a statement needing clarification. Understanding the Bible is the only way you would understand answers. Not asking you to believe it. I said read about it. 
 

You really don’t care about answers though. You are doing nothing more than looking to argue. Disparaging the internet because you have a history of conclusion then posting back up from a 9 page opinion by some wacko.

Yep, you're right. 

Everyone on the internet - or in literature - who disagrees with you is a "wacko" by definition.  Anyone who challenges religion and the very idea of a personal God is a wacko. By definition.  (Not to mention they are destined for hell.)o

And if you access such information on the internet - or YouTube - it' s an evil use of the internet.

I understand.

Edited April 16 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,431]

On 4/15/2024 at 9:47 PM, Leftfield said:

It's interesting that you dismiss the possibility of the universe being infinite, yet have no problem believing that God is. 

Do tell.

How can anything have no beginning? (Well, except for God, who sent his only son Jesus......)  Ironic

Edited April 17 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,431]

On 4/15/2024 at 11:50 PM, jj3jordan said:

Two big bangs. Wow that’s amazing. What was before the first one? 

Well, since we don't know, must have been God, right?

Edited April 17 by homersapien

[SaltyTiger 7,854]

50 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Everyone on the internet - or in literature - who disagrees with you is a "wacko" by definition.

No they are not. Plenty that are though and you either work or to find them or naturally attract them.

[auburnatl1 5,016]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Well, since we don't know, must have been God, right.

I give you credit for amazing perseverance.  Had you been religious you would have been a gifted minister😇.

[CoffeeTiger 5,167]

 

 

 

15 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

What really takes determination is believing that all of this came from nothing. Which existed as nothing before it blew up. Whenever it existed, something was before it. It takes determination to believe that the beginning had no beginning.

 

Ultimately, we're just different people coming to different conclusions about how everything we see was originally created. 

Believing that a God or deity did it is certainly a popular opinion that a vast majority of the earths population believes and that that most people throughout history have believed.  There have been hundreds. If not thousands of different gods throughout human history that have been believed in and credited by humans as being the creator of the world and universe. Which deity and religion that is has always depending heavily on the culture, geographic area, and time period they lived in. 

You grew up in the modern United States, so predictably, the God of the Bible is the one you choose to believe to be the creator.  

 

Other people like Homer choose to believe that there are non-religious elements at play in the creation. That science and human understanding can/may eventually find the real explanation for our existence that doesn't lead back to an organized religion. 

 

Perhaps the truth is in the middle? Maybe there IS an almighty intelligent worldly creator that simply hasn't shown themselves to humanity and has not sought worship or recognition, and that we are not aware of the existence of.  

 

 

Edited April 16 by CoffeeTiger

[jj3jordan 2,059]

14 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Without getting too abstract, a beginning requires the concept of … time.  In Einsteinian physics time is as flexible (“relativity”) as any other type of physical movement.  And sometimes it doesn’t even move. Using Genesis thinking, God created the sun of the fourth day - so how do you measure the 3 days before that (assuming God created time on the first day).

Time and “beginnings” are tricky things.
 

 

Got it. You don't know.

[jj3jordan 2,059]

2 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, we're just different people coming to different conclusions about how everything we see was originally created. 

Believing that a God or deity did it is certainly a popular opinion that a vast majority of the earths population believes and that that most people throughout history have believed.  There have been hundreds. If not thousands of different gods throughout human history that have been believed in and credited by humans as being the creator of the world and universe. Which deity and religion that is has always depending heavily on the culture, geographic area, and time period they lived in. 

You grew up in the modern United States, so predictably, the God of the Bible is the one you choose to believe to be the creator.  

 

Other people like Homer choose to believe that there are non-religious elements at play in the creation. That science and human understanding can/may eventually find the real explanation for our existence that doesn't lead back to an organized religion. 

 

Perhaps the truth is in the middle? Maybe there IS an almighty intelligent worldly creator that simply hasn't shown themselves to humanity and has not sought worship or recognition, and excludes that we are not aware of the existence of.  

 

 

I guess part of that is true. God has been around cultures for as long as the earth. All the other gods not so much. There have always been people who felt the urge to seek a higher power (innate in humans) and found God. Others found substitutes which lacked the characteristics of God. 

The only reason to seek non religious elements for creation is that you have rejected God and His account of creation. People like that will believe pretty much any explanation that excludes God. Age of universe, 4.6 billion years, 16, 32+ who knows. Evolution with zero transitional life forms, and thousands of missing links on the trunk of the evolutionary tree. Random increased complicated organization from chaos and disorder. Millions of genetic mutations that resulted in beneficial changes to the host (very rare), including magical appearances of whole systems in animals that did not exist in that species (endocrine, exo/endo skeletons, lymphatic, reproductive, CNS). All unexplainable. At some point, don't you think we should just stop ignoring the signals that don't make any sense, and accept that the God that the vast majority of the worlds population believes in or acknowledges the existence of is the real One? And that creation theory as written doesn't lead back to an organized religion. It leads back to God.

Why would you say maybe there is an intelligent designer (God), who hasn't shown Himself to humanity? There is already. It is God. Why acquiesce to intelligent design but refuse to believe that intelligent designer is God?

[auburnatl1 5,016]

42 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Got it. You don't know.

Think I’ve seen that line in at least 60 movies.  Of course I don’t, just repeating what I’ve read or studied. 

[SaltyTiger 7,854]

8 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Other people like Homer choose to believe that there are non-religious elements at play in the creation.

“ at play in”. Don’t you mean “responsible for”. God is a myth with Homer. 

[homersapien 11,431]

14 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

“ at play in”. Don’t you mean “responsible for”. God is a myth with Homer. 

Not your God Salty.  Just all the other thousands and thousands (millions?) of Gods invented by man since our species gained curiosity about such matters. 

Edited April 17 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,431]

19 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

"Evolution with zero transitional life forms, and thousands of missing links on the trunk of the evolutionary tree."

That's just sad. 

(And not a little scary.)

[homersapien 11,431]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:31 AM, SaltyTiger said:

No they are not. Plenty that are though and you either work or to find them or naturally attract them.

Well, next time I quote a "wacko" call me out.

(You're also welcome to go back and Identify them from my past posts.)

Edited April 17 by homersapien

[auburnatl1 5,016]

19 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

I guess part of that is true. God has been around cultures for as long as the earth. All the other gods not so much. There have always been people who felt the urge to seek a higher power (innate in humans) and found God. Others found substitutes which lacked the characteristics of God. 

The only reason to seek non religious elements for creation is that you have rejected God and His account of creation. People like that will believe pretty much any explanation that excludes God. Age of universe, 4.6 billion years, 16, 32+ who knows. Evolution with zero transitional life forms, and thousands of missing links on the trunk of the evolutionary tree. Random increased complicated organization from chaos and disorder. Millions of genetic mutations that resulted in beneficial changes to the host (very rare), including magical appearances of whole systems in animals that did not exist in that species (endocrine, exo/endo skeletons, lymphatic, reproductive, CNS). All unexplainable. At some point, don't you think we should just stop ignoring the signals that don't make any sense, and accept that the God that the vast majority of the worlds population believes in or acknowledges the existence of is the real One? And that creation theory as written doesn't lead back to an organized religion. It leads back to God.

Why would you say maybe there is an intelligent designer (God), who hasn't shown Himself to humanity? There is already. It is God. Why acquiesce to intelligent design but refuse to believe that intelligent designer is God?

Theres so many things wrong with this I don’t know where to start.  So I’ll just pick one - no transitional life forms? Huh?  That like debating the existence of gravity. Every single species that ever lived has transitioned. There are fossil records back before the Permian that show 10s of thousands of species changing.

Something everyday basic. A dog. Basically a totally new species literally evolved through breeding and selecting qualities.  In 25 generations (less than 50 yrs) you can take a wolf and turn it into a pug.  Modern corn didn’t exist 200 yrs ago.

I struggle  with why some Christians can’t integrate portions of science into their faith (though they do seem to like the medicines and smart phones of science). Did God create  humans to be drones, or did he give us a mind to think, discover, and figure out, so to better understand  his creation and word?

[CoffeeTiger 5,167]

20 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

I guess part of that is true. God has been around cultures for as long as the earth. All the other gods not so much. There have always been people who felt the urge to seek a higher power (innate in humans) and found God. Others found substitutes which lacked the characteristics of God. 

The only reason to seek non religious elements for creation is that you have rejected God and His account of creation. People like that will believe pretty much any explanation that excludes God. Age of universe, 4.6 billion years, 16, 32+ who knows. Evolution with zero transitional life forms, and thousands of missing links on the trunk of the evolutionary tree. Random increased complicated organization from chaos and disorder. Millions of genetic mutations that resulted in beneficial changes to the host (very rare), including magical appearances of whole systems in animals that did not exist in that species (endocrine, exo/endo skeletons, lymphatic, reproductive, CNS). All unexplainable. At some point, don't you think we should just stop ignoring the signals that don't make any sense, and accept that the God that the vast majority of the worlds population believes in or acknowledges the existence of is the real One? And that creation theory as written doesn't lead back to an organized religion. It leads back to God.

Why would you say maybe there is an intelligent designer (God), who hasn't shown Himself to humanity? There is already. It is God. Why acquiesce to intelligent design but refuse to believe that intelligent designer is God?

 

I was raised to believe like you, that the creation story was 100% true and literal to the letter. that Evolution and astronomy science was all liberal bunk designed to turn people away from God. Members of my church love the Ken Ham grifts like the Ark Encounters and Creation 'museums'. 

What I find curious...and I don't know if your church, belief system is the same way, but at least in my Church, while we took the wild and fantastical stories in the Old Testament as a completely true to the letter accounting of what God did and what actually happened, our church takes great pains to point out that most New Testament scripture has to be contextualized to be correctly understood. That when reading the New Testament scriptures one has to know 'who wrote the letter' 'who the letter was written to' the culture  and beliefs system of the people at that time,  and the language and terminology used at the time. Only through study and examination of all these factors can the true meaning and intent of new testament scripture be understood. 

My church taught that much of the New Testament was written in parables and metaphors that couldn't be taken as 100% literal, and needed the above referenced context to get the true meaning out of. 

A quick examples is when Jesus says its 'easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven'

A literal reading of this verse and teaching would suggest that Jesus is saying it's basically impossible for a man who is wealthy/hordes wealth to ever be saved' My Church/preacher went with the common modern day interpretation that Jesus was referring to what some claim was a very small Gate/opening in the Walls of Jerusalem at that time that travelers referred to as the 'eye of the needle, and that while difficult for the rich to stay focused on God, it wasn't quite as hard/impossible as a literal interpretation of Jesus's words would indicate. 

What I find interesting is that this call for context never applies to Old Testament stories like Creation, Tower of Babel, The Ark, etc. 

While the New Testament was written for people of the ancient Middle East, and that their understanding of biblical writings were paramount over a literal telling of what was happening, but yet this isn't considered true for much of the Old Testament for some reason.

 

People in 1400B.C. had no real ideas or understanding of biology, physics, astronomy, etc. They were a people that were primarily superstitious and were focused on survival and would have had no understanding about evolution or things at play in the wider universe. They needed simple stories and explanations about why they existed, how the earth came to be, why bad things happen, why it hurts when they stick their fingers, Who and what 'God' was. 

All of this is answered in the easy to understand, easy to teach stories of Genesis. People could understand an all powerful God creating man out of dust and a woman out of a human rib with magic much more easily than they could understand millions of years of evolution. They could understand a story about the evil, trickster Devil convincing silly humans to eat a 'forbidden' fruit in a magic garden against Gods wishes. 

Of course it makes sense that now they, the people of 1400 BC, had to suffer because their early ancestors were tricked by Satan and defied God. 

It's all a cute story that gives easy, quick answers to the most challenging and important questions that people of that day would have understood and accepted. Why are there other people spread out among the lands speaking weird languages? Of course the Tower of Babel happened! 

 

Now weather you want to believe that the creation story was written by regular men as a fantasy scenario to give easy answers to hard questions on the religion they were creating among themselves, or God himself intentionally made it up for early people to more easily understand and digest his words and commands, that's for you to decide. 

 This is a drawn out way of saying that there are different and reasonable beliefs to have between the extremes of 'I believe the Biblical creation story literally in its entirety" or 'I am defying God and turning away from him since I believe in evolution, big bang, etc'

 

[jj3jordan 2,059]

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

Theres so many things wrong with this I don’t know where to start.  So I’ll just pick one - no transitional life forms? Huh?  That like debating the existence of gravity. Every single species that ever lived has transitioned. There are fossil records back before the Permian that show 10s of thousands of species changing.

Obviously not like gravity. Thats about as dumb a comparison as I have seen here. Species adapt, they don't change into another species.

Something everyday basic. A dog. Basically a totally new species literally evolved through breeding and selecting qualities.  In 25 generations (less than 50 yrs) you can take a wolf and turn it into a pug.  Modern corn didn’t exist 200 yrs ago.

A dog. Breeding and selecting is not a transitional life form You can't make it a cat, or a pig, or a horse, just a different looking dog.

I struggle  with why some Christians can’t integrate portions of science into their faith (though they do seem to like the medicines and smart phones of science). Did God create  humans to be drones, or did he give us a mind to think, discover, and figure out, so to better understand  his creation and word?

God absolutely did not create humans to be drones. He created them for fellowship with Him, and He gave them free will. Some have chosen to reject Him. There is nothing wrong with science. I'm glad we have medicine and smart phones.  When you deny God, discredit the Bible, and rebel against clear scriptural instruction, then we have issues. Issues that will not be reconciled by me, or any of us, only in the judgment seat of God.

 

[auburnatl1 5,016]

7 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

 

I don’t understand your points but if it works for you. Ok.

[ArgoEagle 1,797]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

I guess part of that is true. God has been around cultures for as long as the earth. All the other gods not so much. There have always been people who felt the urge to seek a higher power (innate in humans) and found God. Others found substitutes which lacked the characteristics of God. 

The only reason to seek non religious elements for creation is that you have rejected God and His account of creation. People like that will believe pretty much any explanation that excludes God. Age of universe, 4.6 billion years, 16, 32+ who knows. Evolution with zero transitional life forms, and thousands of missing links on the trunk of the evolutionary tree. Random increased complicated organization from chaos and disorder. Millions of genetic mutations that resulted in beneficial changes to the host (very rare), including magical appearances of whole systems in animals that did not exist in that species (endocrine, exo/endo skeletons, lymphatic, reproductive, CNS). All unexplainable. At some point, don't you think we should just stop ignoring the signals that don't make any sense, and accept that the God that the vast majority of the worlds population believes in or acknowledges the existence of is the real One? And that creation theory as written doesn't lead back to an organized religion. It leads back to God.

Why would you say maybe there is an intelligent designer (God), who hasn't shown Himself to humanity? There is already. It is God. Why acquiesce to intelligent design but refuse to believe that intelligent designer is God?

Brother JJ, I agree with about everything you have said in your posts on this subject.  One thing I see is you are being attacked by what the Bible defines as fools (Proverbs 18:2---A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.)  I have found that it is better to make your points from God's Word to fools once or twice at the most and then don't let them suck you into an argument (Proverbs 26:4---Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.)  Proverbs 29:9---If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

I sincerely don't believe that God would put so many verses, and this is just a few, in His Word if it was not a very important issue.

You have made your points to these people and have doubled down on them, and I think you should consider moving on from them.

Just some brotherly advice from a fellow Christian.   God bless.

[auburnatl1 5,016]

6 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Brother JJ, I agree with about everything you have said in your posts on this subject.  One thing I see is you are being attacked by what the Bible defines as fools (Proverbs 18:2---A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.)  I have found that it is better to make your points from God's Word to fools once or twice at the most and then don't let them suck you into an argument (Proverbs 26:4---Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.)  Proverbs 29:9---If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet.

I sincerely don't believe that God would put so many verses, and this is just a few, in His Word if it was not a very important issue.

You have made your points to these people and have doubled down on them, and I think you should consider moving on from them.

Just some brotherly advice from a fellow Christian.   God bless.

Respectfully, this debate for some isn’t about Christianity.  Their Christian’s. The debate is about evangelical biblical absolute literalism vs more moderate biblical contextualism (the majority of Protestant denominations).A debate that started before John Luther.

To your point - it won’t be resolved here but it’s useful to hear other peoples perspectives.

[homersapien 11,431]

48 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

 

You have made your points to these people and have doubled down on them, and I think you should consider moving on from them.

Great advice, and I concur.

I am not so foolish to believe I could change a true believer's mind. But I do have a duty to represent the many of us in society who are secular, in public debates as appropriate. Otherwise, we'll wind up in a theocracy.

Now, if only you theists would keep your religion to yourselves and not try to impose it on the rest of us.

Edited April 17 by homersapien

[CoffeeTiger 5,167]

30 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Great advice, and I concur.

I am not so foolish to believe I could change a true believers mind. But I do have a duty to represent the many of us in society who are secular in public debates as appropriate. Otherwise, we'll wind up in a theocracy.

Now, if you all you theists would only keep your religion to yourselves and not try to impose it on the rest of us.

Like auburnatl mentioned, It's not even just a secular belief.  https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx

A majority of American Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation and, somewhat surprising only 56% of protestant Christians seemed to believe in full human creationism. 

 

 

 

Edited April 17 by CoffeeTiger

[homersapien 11,431]

5 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Like auburnatl mentioned, It's not even just a secular belief.  https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx

A majority of American Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation and, somewhat surprising only 56% of protestant Christians seemed to believe in full human creationism.

Well, you've got to be pretty gone to accept the creation story as literally true.

But I'd like to see the percentage of people who consider Israel to be "God's chosen people."  There are members of my family who believe that and it affects their politics re: foreign policy.

[CoffeeTiger 5,167]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, you've got to be pretty gone to accept the creation story as literally true.

Most people have believed it their entire lives, and had the literal story of creation taught to them before they even started Kindergarten. 

 I know plenty of great, overall smart people who are creationist. It's very, very hard to change such early, foundational beliefs, and frankly some people just aren't very curious or questioning, and just kind of go with the flow with what their Church, family, believe or tell them to believe without much interest in other viewpoints. 

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

But I'd like to see the percentage of people who consider Israel to be "God's chosen people."  There are members of my family who believe that and it affects their politics re: foreign policy.

Depends heavily on the Denomination .

My church is full on creationism, but at the same time doesn't necessarily believe that Jews/Israel are special or different in the eyes of God. Our belief was that Jews being the 'chosen' people was primarily an old law type thing and that Jews turned away from God and more or less lost their special 'privalidge'  and so now everyone, Jews and Gentiles, are equals within Christianity. 

Most people in my Church still heavily support Israel, mainly due to politics and wanting there to be a strong counterbalance to the Islamic theocracies. 

[auburnatl1 5,016]

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, you've got to be pretty gone to accept the creation story as literally true.

But I'd like to see the percentage of people who consider Israel to be "God's chosen people."  There are members of my family who believe that and it affects their politics re: foreign policy.

Homer Homer Homer . Btw so if all matter came from a super massive singularity explosion (big bang) 14.4 billion years - where’d the singularity come from? 

[Leftfield 2,651]

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

God has been around cultures for as long as the earth. 

Is this a figure of speech, or do you believe man has existed as long as the Earth?

 

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

All the other gods not so much.

That would be news to Hindus, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, and pretty much any polytheistic religion you can think of.

 

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

The only reason to seek non religious elements for creation is that you have rejected God and His account of creation. People like that will believe pretty much any explanation that excludes God. Age of universe, 4.6 billion years, 16, 32+ who knows.

People question because they see the inherent flaws in logic: They think dinosaurs are cool, but sure doesn't seem like they would have existed at the same time as people. It's a neat idea that we were created to be special in the universe, but if so, geez, what was the purpose of making so many galaxies out there that we have trouble counting them? I like to stay in shape, but what exercise regimen was Noah following to live to 950? 

You can see accounts of the Bible as being allegorical without rejecting God. In fact, as others have pointed out in this thread, the majority of Christians have. That doesn't mean those people will believe "anything" outside of the Biblical account - that's your prejudice speaking about those you see basically as heretics. 

 

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

Evolution with zero transitional life forms, and thousands of missing links on the trunk of the evolutionary tree. Random increased complicated organization from chaos and disorder. Millions of genetic mutations that resulted in beneficial changes to the host (very rare), including magical appearances of whole systems in animals that did not exist in that species (endocrine, exo/endo skeletons, lymphatic, reproductive, CNS). All unexplainable. 

This is just a mess. I'd ask for specifics, but I know you won't give them. I'll just say it's all wrong, as were your responses to auburnatl1, and move on.

 

On 4/16/2024 at 2:18 PM, jj3jordan said:

At some point, don't you think we should just stop ignoring the signals that don't make any sense, and accept that the God that the vast majority of the worlds population believes in or acknowledges the existence of is the real One?

Christians make up about 31-32 percent of the world population. That is not even a simple majority, much less a vast majority.