FL Police Officer Shoots Air Force Airman To Death for Answering Apartment Door While holding a Gun by his side.

[Gowebb11 9,431]

47 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

We have *freedoms* other countries don’t and you sheep want to take it away.

We may, but some of them come with a costs. I feel very free in Europe when I go there to travel all over at all hours and not be fearful of some nut job shooting me, or being shot on the highway for upsetting another driver. America could very well retain and better enjoy its gun rights, if we could figure out how to curb our gun culture. 

[AU9377 5,137]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

You guys can misinterpret with the best of them.   Well done.  We have *freedoms* other countries don’t and you sheep want to take it away.

That is not what people want overall.  People simply want to live in communities where people are not shot on a regular basis.  People are disgusted that we have allowed our country to become known more as the land of the heavily armed instead of the land of the free.  More guns is not the answer.  The answer isn't taking guns from people, but the right wing now justifies having guns that their parents and grand parents never wanted to own.  When you cannot even participate in finding a solution by agreeing that people don't need weapons to hunt other people, you have effectively proclaimed that you don't want to solve the problem at all/.

[aubaseball 2,676]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

When you cannot even participate in finding a solution by agreeing that people don't need weapons to hunt other people, you have effectively proclaimed that you don't want to solve the problem at all/.

What exactly does this even mean?  You can “hunt people “ with anything.   If people aren’t going to change behavior, nothing will prevent killing.  

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

2 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

You acknowledged it’s a problem PLUS offered a tip on how to blame others. A 2fer!

No, I acknowledge you think there is a problem and assume that is how you would handle it.

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

2 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

We may, but some of them come with a costs. I feel very free in Europe when I go there to travel all over at all hours and not be fearful of some nut job shooting me, or being shot on the highway for upsetting another driver. America could very well retain and better enjoy its gun rights, if we could figure out how to curb our gun culture. 

It is amazing to be that people think Europe is utopia.  You don’t think they have issues, mental issues, like America does.  They just express themselves differently.

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

That is not what people want overall.  People simply want to live in communities where people are not shot on a regular basis.  People are disgusted that we have allowed our country to become known more as the land of the heavily armed instead of the land of the free.  More guns is not the answer.  The answer isn't taking guns from people, but the right wing now justifies having guns that their parents and grand parents never wanted to own.  When you cannot even participate in finding a solution by agreeing that people don't need weapons to hunt other people, you have effectively proclaimed that you don't want to solve the problem at all/.

This is nonsense.  What kind of people *hunt* other people?  Every weekend there are a group of people that seem to like to shoot people at will, killing 2 or 3 as a result.

These are the people that you should go after, but that isn’t the low hanging fruit is it.  Let’s go after the law abiding citizens that own guns.  After all if we can get those people to give up their guns the others, I’m sure, will just hand their guns over.  Problem solved.

You are the one that doesn’t want to solve the problem, you just lump all gun owners into the *gun culture* gone wild basket.  You don’t want to face the issue that the Constitution guarantees that right and you spend all you time trying to give that right up.  That will not solve the issue and you know it.

[Gowebb11 9,431]

29 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It is amazing to be that people think Europe is utopia.  You don’t think they have issues, mental issues, like America does.  They just express themselves differently.

It’s amazing to me how many people badly misinterpret what they read. Did I say Europe is utopia? No I did not. I said I feel safer there than here. Stats back me up on that.  

Edited May 18 by Gowebb11

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

8 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

It’s amazing to me how many people badly misinterpret what they read. Did I say Europe is utopia? No I did not. I said I feel safer there than here. Stats back me up on that. And the notion that freedoms are unique to America is silly and sophomoric. Those nations were practicing democracy with protected freedoms hundreds of years before us. 

When your over there; are you spending time in areas that are rough or is your company putting you up in nice areas?

[Gowebb11 9,431]

28 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

When your over there; are you spending time in areas that are rough or is your company putting you up in nice areas?

I’ve been a few times to various countries and a mix of neighborhoods. They have their fair share of shady characters, lots of graffiti, and a lot of the same stuff we have here. Huge immigration problems like us. Pickpockets are big issues there. But the gun violence and threat thereof is obviously much less. 
 

FWIW, I own several guns and always will. I love that right and understand the historical significance of it. But we have a culture here that guns solve problems. When the pandemic hit, lines were huge to buy guns. Our answer to gun violence is more guns. While our state legislature here in Tennessee is pushing for teachers being armed at school, you can’t take your weapon into the state capitol where they work. Road rage, public shootings, drive bys, all part of our gun culture. My point is there has to be a way to preserve the 2A while lessening our dependence on the ‘more guns make us safer’. That mindset is not working. 

[auburnatl1 5,253]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

It is amazing to be that people think Europe is utopia.  You don’t think they have issues, mental issues, like America does.  They just express themselves differently.

Europe is definitely not a panacea, but on purely violent crime - it’s better.
Ie comparing US to UK. Guns are about (to your point) an individual right freedom, but they are a disaster when it comes to any notion of safety.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

28 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

But we have a culture here that guns solve problems

This is an upbringing issue.  Not a gun issue.

How to turn it around is the problem.  No one wants to listen to people like Chiefs Kicker Harrison Butker as he is far right and people would rather idolize Colin Kapernic and P Diddy and that culture.

We do have a culture issue, I agree.

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

9 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Europe is definitely not a panacea, but on purely violent crime - it’s better.
Ie comparing US to UK. Guns are about (to your point) an individual right freedom, but they are a disaster when it comes to any notion of safety.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime

Make sure you lump all the gun owners into that homicide rate.  Don’t separate out the law abiding.  

[auburnatl1 5,253]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

Make sure you lump all the gun owners into that homicide rate.  Don’t separate out the law abiding.  

Not sure what you’re debating. It’s like driving or alcohol - every society has to make a freedoms vs risk choice.  But if you’re trying to debate the stats themselves (which are overwhelming) -  this isn’t like arguing the nuance of what an “insurrection” is - it’s math this time.  I’ll save you some time - defend or deflect doesn’t work as well with that.

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

1 minute ago, auburnatl1 said:

Not sure what you’re debating. It’s like driving or alcohol - every society has to make a freedoms vs risk choice.  But if you’re trying to debate the stats themselves (which are overwhelming) -  this isn’t like arguing the nuance of what an “insurrection” is - it’s math this time.  I’ll save you some time - defend or deflect doesn’t work as well with that.

What is the percentage of gun owners are committing the homicides?

[auburnatl1 5,253]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

What is the percentage of gun owners are committing the homicides?

I don’t understand your question but when the murder rate 18 times higher I’m not sure it matters.

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

7 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

I don’t understand your question but when the murder rate 18 times higher I’m not sure it matters.

You don’t understand because you are focused on the gun, not the people using the gun in an unauthorized manner.

Should America punish the people who are not committing crimes just like the ones that are?  Do you punish the sober driver because people drive drunk.  There are laws and the people who do not abuse the law should not suffer consequences.  You are not separating the two.  Go after the criminals, but we, as Americans, are reluctant to do that.  Its much easier to take the guns away. 

[auburnatl1 5,253]

27 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

You don’t understand because you are focused on the gun, not the people using the gun in an unauthorized manner.

Should America punish the people who are not committing crimes just like the ones that are?  Do you punish the sober driver because people drive drunk.  There are laws and the people who do not abuse the law should not suffer consequences.  You are not separating the two.  Go after the criminals, but we, as Americans, are reluctant to do that.  Its much easier to take the guns away. 

Oh dear lord is this “it’s not fair” (to responsible gun owners) thing? I thought only liberals did that. Of course  it isn’t fair. It’s an individual right vs societal safety debate. And at a pure society level, everyone packing heat is safety train wreck. I’m not advocating abolishing  them - but at least own up to known stats and consequences.  Waters wet stuff.

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

3 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Oh dear lord is this “it’s not fair” (to responsible gun owners) thing? I thought only liberals did that. Of course  it isn’t fair. It’s an individual right vs societal safety debate. And at a pure society level, everyone packing heat is safety train wreck. I’m not advocating abolishing  them - but at least own up to known stats and consequences.  Waters wet stuff.

When you admit it’s the person using the gun and not the gun you might just get your feet wet on this issue.

Yes, the societal safety debate.  There are laws, enforce them.

[auburnatl1 5,253]

8 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

When you admit it’s the person using the gun and not the gun you might just get your feet wet on this issue.

Yes, the societal safety debate.  There are laws, enforce them.

Ofcourse it’s the person.  And thats the problem.  People. Crazy, bad, rage, depressed, ect.  Guns simply amplify their danger. Ie one crazy person with one large capacity clip can kill 50 people in under a minute.  

Reaction: the rest of us feel the need to arm up symmetrically. And the arms race goes on. 

And thats how you get the highest murder rate in the civilized world. High tech guns meet diverse and flawed people.   Ironically, so we can feel “safer”.

It’s too deep in our culture  to stop it at this point in time, but what’s scary is that even with hard numbers we can’t even admit to ridiculously obvious facts.

If we’re debating the stats on simple stuff like this, the climate discussion is a total waste of time.

 

[I_M4_AU 8,057]

7 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Ofcourse it’s the person.  And thats the problem.  People. Crazy, bad, rage, depressed, ect.  Guns simply amplify their danger. Ie one crazy person with one large capacity clip can kill 50 people in under a minute.  

Reaction: the rest of us feel the need to arm up symmetrically. And the arms race goes on. 

And thats how you get the highest murder rate in the civilized world. High tech guns meet diverse and flawed people.   Ironically, so we can feel “safer”.

It’s too deep in our culture  to stop it at this point in time, but what’s scary is that even with hard numbers we can’t even admit to ridiculously obvious facts.

If we’re debating the stats on simple stuff like this, the climate discussion is a total waste of time.

 

Will new laws help?  I think we’re past that.  What would be left?  You and I both know.

It is obvious the American people are *all right* with the murder rate in our country no matter how they are committed.  We don’t have enough crazies in America so we import some more.  We are a complicated people.

I have never denied the stats, just your obvious conclusion that guns are the issue.  There is only one way government will react…..more control.

This is exactly how government will react to a proposed 1 degree earth warming in 100 years whether it will catastrophic or not.

[Gowebb11 9,431]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

I have never denied the stats, just your obvious conclusion that guns are the issue.

Guns are not the issue. We agree on that. But hopefully you can agree that they are part of the equation. A huge part. My guns are sitting quietly in my home this morning. No threat to anyone. But under current laws, I can take one or several of them today and sell to a bi-polar neighbor with a history of violence. Surely we can agree that’s not optimal for the good of our society. There are several common sense measures we could take to impede the ability of unstable people to acquire them as easily as they can now. 

[auburnatl1 5,253]

51 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Will new laws help?  I think we’re past that.  What would be left?  You and I both know.

It is obvious the American people are *all right* with the murder rate in our country no matter how they are committed.  We don’t have enough crazies in America so we import some more.  We are a complicated people.

I have never denied the stats, just your obvious conclusion that guns are the issue.  There is only one way government will react…..more control.

This is exactly how government will react to a proposed 1 degree earth warming in 100 years whether it will catastrophic or not.

I understand.   Back to the original post. Officer and rightful armed citizen meet a door, situation is misread and it goes dodge city at high noon. In less than a second.  A panicked mistake I’m sure the officer deeply regrets regardless of legally who’s to blame. The question is are people perfect enough in all situations to have weapons that demand perfection? Is it worth it?

Again, I support the 2nd amendment - accepting the risks, I’m a hunter, but I also support reviewing what level of firepower is necessary as well as carry laws. The truth is guns only make us feel safer because of a bad guy arms race.

Nonetheless, I do think liberals are in play here as well. No compromise is currently possible because some want to repel the 2nd amendment.  Which destroys the discussion before it starts.  This is a long haul debate but imo can only be framed by stats: millions and millions of guns later, we’ve steadily become by far the most dangerous 1st world country on the planet.

[TexasTiger 13,138]

55 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

No compromise is currently possible because some want to repel the 2nd amendment.

A relatively small group wants to outright repeal the amendment. More would amend it because of its vagueness and recent interpretation— it’s a mess. That’s where much opportunity for compromise lays. But there are others which most Republicans steadfastly refuse to consider. And they use arguments like this to do it.

[homersapien 11,513]

13 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

I don’t understand your question but when the murder rate 18 times higher I’m not sure it matters.

The better question would be what percentage of those committing homicides own guns?   

[auburnatl1 5,253]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

The better question would be what percentage of those committing homicides own guns?   

Do you mean legal owner vs illegal, or different weapon types? Ie gun vs knife?