I'd like to here Bush quote Jefferson

[Bottomfeeder 244]

I would love to hear Bush quote Thomas Jefferson, word for word, like Al Gore did today.

Thomas Jefferson, eliminated the abuses he said: "[The essential principles of our Government] form the bright constellation which has gone before us and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation... hould we wander from them in moments of error or of alarm, let us hasten to retrace our steps and to regain the road which alone leads to peace, liberty and safety."

We'll see how well he does in the State of the Union address, soon.

[Aubie16 1]

I like Bush more than Kerry/Gore/Clinton, but I actually agree with you on this one. Jefferson was a great American. His views on government (and religion) are interesting to read about. I read things on Jefferson quite a bit.

Love the avatar btw.

[japantiger 4,051]

I would like to hear him quote Washington instead of Jefferson; especially as it relates to balancing "utopia" and (war-time) realities. Jefferson was a talker with little or no experience in backing up his prose.

Washington said things that actually were born of experience and reflected the way the world works. He made daily decisions that balanced the needs for an open society with what it takes to preserve it. More often than not, he came down on the side of solutions that would frighten the ACLU.

I think he is our most underrated Leader, period.

[Tigermike 3,050]

Do any of you remember, before their first inauguration, seeing Bill & Hillary & Algore & Tipper on C-span making a tour of Monticello. They went into a round room, there was a bust of none other than Thomas Jefferson, what did Algore say? He asked "Who is that?" Bill, Hillary, Tipper and the guide looked at him as if he were crazy and the guide politely said that it was Thomas Jefferson. Algore said OK, as if nothing had happened.

Now 14 years later Bottomfeeder wants President Bush to act like Algore.

[AURaptor 1,126]

I would love to hear Bush quote Thomas Jefferson, word for word, like Al Gore did today.

Thomas Jefferson, eliminated the abuses he said: "[The essential principles of our Government] form the bright constellation which has gone before us and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation... hould we wander from them in moments of error or of alarm, let us hasten to retrace our steps and to regain the road which alone leads to peace, liberty and safety."

We'll see how well he does in the State of the Union address, soon.

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It's taken AlGore 5years to come up with something worth hearing, and all he did was quote Thomas Jefferson. Too bad Gore doesn't believe a word he says, only he knows that it'll play well w/ those who aren't paying attention.

[WarTim 3,457]

Algore is nobody today. As a matter of fact, he was nobody yesterday.

[Wishbone 0]

Not defending Bush. But what do Al Gore and the modern democrats have in common with Thomas Jefferson, considering Jefferson was a champion of the Anti-federalist cause?

[Captain Liger 0]

I would like to hear him quote Washington instead of Jefferson; especially as it relates to balancing "utopia" and (war-time) realities.  Jefferson was a talker with little or no experience in backing up his prose. 

Washington said things that actually were born of experience and reflected the way the world works.  He made daily decisions that balanced the needs for an open society with what it takes to preserve it.  More often than not, he came down on the side of solutions that would frighten the ACLU.

I think he is our most underrated Leader, period.

211965[/snapback]

I totally agree with you. Jefferson was nothing but a pretty boy with a lot of socialist views and somewhat anti-God in his latter years. Again, in his latter years he was like this. He was quite young when he penned the Constitution. If my memory serves me correctly, Jefferson took a dive off the deep end after his wife died......I'll have to go back and look to make sure.

And NO, I don't have a link for anyone to click on, I'll have to go home and see if I can dig up my old notebooks from my college history courses and find the notes I took on Jefferson. I just remember my professor slamming Jefferson and telling it like it was. The pinko-commie liberal students were highly offended but I just sat there and chuckled while scribbling notes at a furious pace.

[Wishbone 0]

Jefferson was in NO way a socialist or anti-god. He was a secular deist but not an athiest.

[DKW 86 7,440]

AlGore was made for the job of Vice President. That way no one listens to him nor pays him any attention.

[japantiger 4,051]

Jefferson was very bright and his writings were obviously influential. The

Declaration helped change the course of humanity and still serves as an inspiration.

After that, Jefferson's record is definately mixed.

As a Vice President, he plotted with the French against Washington's foreign policy direction and the laws of the new US government that he supposedly swore to protect and defend. Washington wanted nothing to do with aligning with France in war with Britain. Neither did Congress, etc. Jefferson thought our future aligned with France and it's revolutionary ideals.

This was a traitorous act that had it become known at the time; would likely have landed him in jail; certainly left him disgraced. He was an avowed Franco-file (better known as cheese eating surrender monkey-ophile). He believed in the French revolution's version of democracy (that is, socialism). Washington understood we could ill afford another war with Britain; and frankly he saw no historical ties that bound us with the French; unlike our history with Great Britain and the very strong economic ties of the time (our economies immediately after the revolution became intertwined again). This was quite insightful given what had just happened during the revolution. Washington understood the French had acted in their interests; not ours by agreeing to blockage the British at Yorktown; and they did so only when they were convinced they would be unnopposed. Jefferson was an idealist who couldn't quite connect the dots when it came to things like this. Washington had over 30 years of fighting with and against the French (French and Indian War and Revolution) and understood the situation perfectly.

He also lied to Washington in his correspondence about trying to sabotage other of Washington's directions. While not traitorours like his direct negotiations with the French when facing potential war; still hardly the actions of a VP. Jefferson left the seat of government halfway into his VP term to carry on a underground campaign to smeer Washington as "too old" and "out of touch". This went over for the remainder of Washington's 2 terms. Washington refused to believe this until near the end of his second term after Adams was VP. Finally, Washington's friends showed the proof to him of Jefferson's long campaign; that ended their long acquaintance. Washington wrote a letter to Jefferson letting him know that "he knew". It was a masterful rebuke.

Jefferson was the original partisan politician in America. He viewed himself not as Washington's VP and gave little thought to his oath to support and defend. He saw himself instead as the head of the opposition political party. He viewed 'that' a higher calling and more in keeping with the "ideals" of the revolution; as opposed to supporting his government. I guess this sounds familiar.

On the pro's; the Louisiana Purchase during his Presidency was about the only other highlight to Jefferson's career. Pretty big success. In French documents; it's interesting that Napolean planned to pocket the money from the sale and then retake New Orleans and the territory after he finished off the British. The reality was, we could buy it; but we could not defend it. It wasn't until the War of 1812; that we actually sent a force to New Orleans large enough to defend it. While we destroyed the British Army in the battle (after the war was over); it really foiled the French more. We now had a sufficient force there that made the French stop and think. At one point, they sent a fleet to take the port; byt they got bogged down with a slavery revolt in Haiti; and could not go take New Orleans.

History has so much to teach us.

[AWK 0]

Jefferson was in NO way a socialist or anti-god.  He was a secular deist but not an athiest.

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This statement can be applied to roughly all of our founding fathers.

[Wishbone 0]

This is the first thing I have ever heard about Napolean wanting to take N.O. or the Louisiana territory. In fact, Napolean sold the Louisiana territory because he knew that France was the nation that couldn't defend it, not the U.S. The federalist and anti-federalists were always split on foreign policy, in terms of France and Britian, however they were never realy warm with either country. In fact, the end of the federalists was the result of them plotting a disgraceful surrender to the British in the War of 1812 which was considered treasonous at the time. Also, I doubt Jefferson suported the French Revolution once the radicals took over and started the Reign of Terror started.

[Captain Liger 0]

Jefferson was in NO way a socialist or anti-god.  He was a secular deist but not an athiest.

212116[/snapback]

This statement can be applied to roughly all of our founding fathers.

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"Roughly all?" I doubt it. The majority of our founding fathers were Masons and if you know anything about Masonic history during this period of America and what Masons stand for (knowledge that comes from being a member and NOT a book reader) then you know that the majority of the fathers in fact were very much pro-God. Secular deism does not identify with the God of Christianity. Most of our founding fathers were Christians, and Masons, and identified with the God of the Holy Bible. If you don't believe me on the Masonic point about our founding fathers then I suggest you dig up the original street plans for Washington, DC. I think you'll be surprised to learn that the original plans called for the major arteries to be laid out in the shape of a compass and a square.

Japantiger obviously can get further into the weeds on Jefferson than I can so I suggest you listen to what he has to say. And you can lump our good buddy Ben Franklin in with Jefferson as well since they both shared basically the same views. Franklin was in bed with the French I think more so than Jefferson.

But I will give Jefferson one thing, he was a skilled architect and drew up some amazing plans for houses and whatnot. The Belle Mont plantation house south of Tuscumbia off Hwy 43 was built from his plans.

[WarTim 3,457]

I had rather "hear" him than "here" him.

[japantiger 4,051]

Wishbone,

Your statements are sound plausible, but the writings of those involved don't bare it out. Napolean sold the LA Territory to raise money to fight Britain and the rest of Eurpoe; his first priority. He needed cash. At the same time, he plotted it's retaking.

Can't believe he would betray us? He betrayed everyone he dealt with; much like Hitler. After overrunning and looting Spain; he later offered to put their King back on the throne in an agreement to kick the Britsh out of Spain during the Napoleanic Wars. His enemy was now his friend; if they kicked his real threat of the European Continent.

He sent his Caribean fleet to retake N.O.; but as I mentioned, a slave revolt in Haiti at the time sidetracked them. They resaled for N.O.; but in the meantime, Andrew Jackson's force destroyed the British forces there. Jackson's larger force deterred the French and they turned back.

Not sure your context on the 1812 Treaty and its disastrous aspects. The War and the resulting treaty expelled the British from the US territory, secured the LA territory, secured out border with Canada, eliminated the practice of the British attacking our merchant ships and conscripting our crews, lead to our first "standing" army and put us on equal footing with our European rivals. What ended the Federalists was that they all died out. The Federalists leaders all had one thing in common; they had served in the Continental Army. That was the entry price to the club. By the end of the War of 1812; they were all getting too old. It was an exclusive group that didn't have much patience for those that had not served.

[Wishbone 0]

Not sure your context on the 1812 Treaty and its disastrous aspects.  The War and the resulting treaty expelled the British from the US territory, secured the LA territory, secured out border with Canada, eliminated the practice of the British attacking our merchant ships and conscripting our crews, lead to our first "standing" army and put us on equal footing with our European rivals. What ended the Federalists was that they all died out.  The Federalists leaders all had one thing in common; they had served in the Continental Army.  That was the entry price to the club.  By the end of the War of 1812; they were all getting too old.  It was an exclusive group that didn't have much patience for those that had not served.

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JapanTiger,

If my memory serves me correct, this is what i was taught:

What ended the federalist party was an attempt by the Federalists to conspire to have the war end poorly for the democractic-republicans and therefore they could return to power as the majority party. This strategy became known by the American public and there was a tremendous backlash against the Federalists, especially since the war was going so poorly and it was believed that the US might lose at one point (Battle of N.O. was the U.S.'s only victory and that happened after the war was over.)

It would be akin to certain democrats wanting the U.S. to lose the Iraq war badly just so they could regain the whitehouse and congress. I am sure there are several sides to every story though and I was simply taught this angle regarding J.Q. Adams party's decline.

[TexasTiger 13,000]

I would like to hear him quote Washington instead of Jefferson; especially as it relates to balancing "utopia" and (war-time) realities.  Jefferson was a talker with little or no experience in backing up his prose.  

Washington said things that actually were born of experience and reflected the way the world works.  He made daily decisions that balanced the needs for an open society with what it takes to preserve it.  More often than not, he came down on the side of solutions that would frighten the ACLU.

I think he is our most underrated Leader, period.

211965[/snapback]

I totally agree with you. Jefferson was nothing but a pretty boy with a lot of socialist views and somewhat anti-God in his latter years. Again, in his latter years he was like this. He was quite young when he penned the Constitution. If my memory serves me correctly, Jefferson took a dive off the deep end after his wife died......I'll have to go back and look to make sure.

And NO, I don't have a link for anyone to click on, I'll have to go home and see if I can dig up my old notebooks from my college history courses and find the notes I took on Jefferson. I just remember my professor slamming Jefferson and telling it like it was. The pinko-commie liberal students were highly offended but I just sat there and chuckled while scribbling notes at a furious pace.

212096[/snapback]

He didn't pen the Constitution. You're a funny guy. You don't mean to be, but your funny, nonetheless. "That rascal was nothing more than a pretty boy."

[Captain Liger 0]

I would like to hear him quote Washington instead of Jefferson; especially as it relates to balancing "utopia" and (war-time) realities.  Jefferson was a talker with little or no experience in backing up his prose.  

Washington said things that actually were born of experience and reflected the way the world works.  He made daily decisions that balanced the needs for an open society with what it takes to preserve it.  More often than not, he came down on the side of solutions that would frighten the ACLU.

I think he is our most underrated Leader, period.

211965[/snapback]

I totally agree with you. Jefferson was nothing but a pretty boy with a lot of socialist views and somewhat anti-God in his latter years. Again, in his latter years he was like this. He was quite young when he penned the Constitution. If my memory serves me correctly, Jefferson took a dive off the deep end after his wife died......I'll have to go back and look to make sure.

And NO, I don't have a link for anyone to click on, I'll have to go home and see if I can dig up my old notebooks from my college history courses and find the notes I took on Jefferson. I just remember my professor slamming Jefferson and telling it like it was. The pinko-commie liberal students were highly offended but I just sat there and chuckled while scribbling notes at a furious pace.

212096[/snapback]

He didn't pen the Constitution. You're a funny guy. You don't mean to be, but your funny, nonetheless. "That rascal was nothing more than a pretty boy."

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My bad. I meant the Declaration. Simple mistake on my part.

But you're right, that's a hoot. Way to go guy, out of all that you pick a simple textbook error to make a smartass comment about. Just like a democrat. But hey, look at it this way, I wouldn't expect any less from you.

[japantiger 4,051]

WB,

The President at the time was Madison, not JQ Adams. Not sure if that's what you meant.

The Federalists were largely responsible for the actual prosecution of the war. The majority of the military leadership was Revolutionary veterans and Federalists. There were grumbles over the best way to prosecute the war, but that was mostly as regards offensive operations against Canada. The two most publisized battles of the war were the sacking of Washington and N.O. Sacking Washington turned out to be a positive for us as it enraged all the foreign powers that the British would burn a capital; that was simply not done at the time and it really had no military signifigance. NO, was after the War and was not significant to the War; but to establishing control over NO, the Mississippi and the LA Territory.

There were 12-15 major engagements; more than half on the Great Lakes or main approaches to Canada. The US routed the British Navy and Army and was in firm control of the Great Lakes before War's end. Also, our small NAvy scored major victories (Old Ironsides, etc.) in the Atlantic against the British navy; which fortunately was mostly tied up in Europe. These had a major morale impact at home (positive) and in Britain (Navy). Stetements like "don't give up the ship" , "we have met the enemy and he is ours" bacame famous during the War. (Lawrence, Perry). We came into our own militarily during this war and some of the key leaders for the Mexican War emerged (a very young Winfield Scott).

So, while not as dramatic as NO, the other victories proved we could beat the British head on in large engagements, repeatedly. The reality is also that we were fortunate that Britain was also engaged against Napolean; and Wellington wanted no part of the Americas after spending most of his life in India and at War in Europe.

[Wishbone 0]

WB,

The President at the time was Madison, not JQ Adams.  Not sure if that's what you meant. 

The Federalists were largely responsible for the actual prosecution of the war.  The majority of the military leadership was Revolutionary veterans and Federalists.  There were grumbles over the best way to prosecute the war, but that was mostly as regards offensive operations against Canada.  The two most publisized battles of the war were the sacking of Washington and N.O.  Sacking Washington turned out to be a positive for us as it enraged all the foreign powers that the British would burn a capital; that was simply not done at the time and it really had no military signifigance.  NO, was after the War and was not significant to the War; but to establishing control over NO, the Mississippi and the LA Territory. 

There were 12-15 major engagements; more than half on the Great Lakes or main approaches to Canada.  The US routed the British Navy and Army and was in firm control of the Great Lakes before War's end.  Also, our small NAvy scored major victories (Old Ironsides, etc.) in the Atlantic against the British navy; which fortunately was mostly tied up in Europe.  These had a major morale impact at home (positive) and in Britain (Navy).   Stetements like "don't give up the ship" , "we have met the enemy and he is ours" bacame famous during the War. (Lawrence, Perry).  We came into our own militarily during this war and some of the key leaders for the Mexican War emerged (a very young Winfield Scott). 

So, while not as dramatic as NO, the other victories proved we could beat the British head on in large engagements, repeatedly.  The reality is also that we were fortunate that Britain was also engaged against Napolean; and Wellington wanted no part of the Americas after spending most of his life in India and at War in Europe.

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Japan Tiger,

I got this off www.answers.com: It discusses federalist opposition to the war of 1812 and the resulting destruction of the party.

"Hartford Convention, Dec. 15, 1814–Jan. 4, 1815, meeting to consider the problems of New England in the War of 1812; held at Hartford, Conn. Prior to the war, New England Federalists (see Federalist party) had opposed the Embargo Act of 1807 and other government measures; many of them continued to oppose the government after fighting had begun. Although manufacturing (fostered by isolation) and contraband trade brought wealth to the section, “Mr. Madison's War” (as the Federalists called the War of 1812) and its expenses became steadily more repugnant to the New Englanders. The Federalist leaders encouraged disaffection. The New England states refused to surrender their militia to national service (see Griswold, Roger), especially when New England was threatened with invasion in 1814. The federal loan of 1814 got almost no support in New England, despite prosperity there. Federalist extremists, such as John Lowell and Timothy Pickering, contemplated a separate peace between New England and Great Britain. Finally, in Oct., 1814, the Massachusetts legislature issued a call to the other New England states for a conference. Representatives were sent by the state legislatures of Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island; other delegates from New Hampshire and Vermont were popularly chosen by the Federalists. The meetings were held in secret. George Cabot, the head of the Massachusetts delegation and a moderate Federalist, presided. Other important delegates were Harrison Gray Otis (1765–1848), also a moderate, and Theodore Dwight, who served as secretary of the convention. The moderates prevailed in the convention. The proposal to secede from the Union was discussed and rejected, the grievances of New England were reviewed, and such matters as the use of the militia were thrashed out. The final report (Jan. 5, 1815) arraigned Madison's administration and the war and proposed several constitutional amendments that would redress what the New Englanders considered the unfair advantage given the South under the Constitution. The news of the Treaty of Ghent ending the war and of Andrew Jackson's victory at New Orleans made any recommendation of the convention a dead letter. Its importance, however, was twofold: It continued the view of states' rights as the refuge of sectional groups, and it sealed the destruction of the Federalist party, which never regained its lost prestige."

[TrueBlue72 0]

Back to the original point...... it seems the writer puts more faith in the words of Mr. Jefferson than in those of Jesus. That gives us a good idea of the mentality and morals of the writer. The words of a mortal man who has a sexual relationship with his 15 year old slave are the ones that he would take to heart....... he named himself well...... Bottomfeeder.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Back to the original point......  it seems the writer puts more faith in the words of Mr. Jefferson than in those of Jesus.  That gives us a good idea of the mentality and morals of the writer.  The words of a mortal man who has a sexual relationship with his 15 year old slave are the ones that he would take to heart....... he named himself well...... Bottomfeeder.

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I'm glad you approve.