State Legislator Confronts 'liberal College Campus

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Santa Fe New Mexican

Worried that left-wing professors are using college classrooms to bully those who don't toe the liberal line, a Colorado politician says it might be time to pass a law protecting students who hold more conservative or religious views.

Republican state senate president John Andrews recently sent a letter to Colorado's 29 public colleges and universities, asking them to explain how they handle cases of ideological discrimination and how they promote diverse points of view. Their answers are due by Monday. If he's unhappy with what he hears, Andrews vowed, he'll sponsor legislation to "ensure academic freedom."

Exactly how the bill would do that has not been worked out yet.

"To say college campuses are liberal is like saying water is wet," Andrews said. "I have heard that a conservative viewpoint is decidedly unwelcome."

Students have complained of being forced to attend abortion-rights rallies, of being required to write essays critical of the Bush administration and of having a strident anti-religion agenda pushed on them.

Some who protested have said they received poor grades or were asked to leave the class.

For their part, Colorado colleges say they have safeguards protecting those who feel under attack because of their beliefs.

"I don't think we are biased. And if there are issues of bias, we want to know about them," said Bob Nero, a spokesman for the University of Colorado at Boulder. "In our (bylaws), we think we have the issues of intellectual diversity pretty well covered."

Andrews, who represents the Denver suburb of Centennial, said liberals began taking over America's colleges in the 1960s and are now the dominant force on campus. He decided a few months ago to take on the issue, but first consulted well-known leftist-turned-rightist David Horowitz, founder of Students for Academic Freedom, a group pushing for more conservative viewpoints on campus.

The lawmaker was attacked by those who said he was pushing an ideological quota system, where every liberal professor would have to be balanced by a conservative.

Andrews -- who says he "abhors quotas" -- charged ahead, armed with anecdotes he believed showed a systematic bias against conservatives on campus.

In one case, he said, a student came to class in an ROTC uniform and was berated by his anti-military professor. In another, a criminology class was told to write an essay on why President Bush was a war criminal. When a student instead wrote why Saddam Hussein was the war criminal, she was given a failing grade, Andrews said.

"Liberalism at its best adheres to openness and tolerance and is accepting and inviting of dissent against itself," he said. "Liberalism, when it gets lazy, wants the privilege of dissent against society but doesn't want others to dissent against it."

The request to review the colleges' policies on intellectual diversity and discrimination has drawn fierce criticism from those who see it less as an appeal for tolerance and more of a ham-handed attempt by conservatives to meddle in the classroom.

"I think the whole thing is ridiculous," said state Sen. Ken Gordon a Democrat from Denver. "I think it's a witch hunt, a conspiracy theory. I am fairly certain that most professors are not punishing students for being conservative."

Gordon teaches political science at the University of Colorado, Denver.

"I like when a student challenges me or disagrees with me, that's what college is for," he said. "I don't like the idea of legislators getting involved in the details on how we run our universities. Our universities are one of the good things about Colorado."

The American Association of University Professors agreed.

The Washington, D.C.-based group said that while classrooms should not be propaganda forums, professors must also be free to decide what to teach.

"It is the professors' decision. It is emphatically not a decision to be made by politicians," said Jonathan Knight, a spokesman for the organization.

"We do not elect politicians because of their experience in how to teach medieval poetry or modern philosophy. If there is legislation, it would be contrary to the very values the sponsors wish to see enshrined in colleges and universities, namely, vigorous debate."

On a national level, Rep. Jack Kingston, R-Ga., last month introduced a resolution calling for an academic bill of rights.

"We want people to know when they walk into a college that they will get an education, not (a liberal) indoctrination," his spokesman said.

Until then, some students are taking matters into their own hands.

In the last few months, they have formed groups to discuss and report incidents of bias against them by a professor.

"I had a professor who made fun of Jesus on the cross; another professor told the class no true scientist could not believe in evolution; and another time I had a professor say sex between a man and a boy is not necessarily child abuse," said Erin Bergstrom, 44, of Loveland, who attended two colleges before coming to Regis University in Denver.

"I expected a variety of viewpoints to be presented in a fair and objective manner. I am not there to hear a professor's own opinion -- I am there to learn."

Bergstrom volunteers for Students for Academic Freedom, an offshoot of the national organization by the same name, and talks to students who feel persecuted for their beliefs.

"They are afraid to go public with their stories because they are young, and speaking out against a professor is not something you do," she said. "A lot of classrooms are hostile learning environments right now."

[FreeThinker 0]

College Campuses happen to be places where intellectual conversation blossoms. College students traditionally love to toss around ideas and hear the opinions of others. Colleges are places of learning and therefore places where different views are shared. Whether the students are liberal or conservative, they can form their own opinions and take it with them.

Puhleez! I sit here in Alabama and am confronted every day with the mindless chatter of conservatives on the radio, on my television, in my workplace, and out in the community. There's hardly a liberal voice available for those of us who would like an UNBIASED view of the world. If you live here...you cannot help but be exposed to bumper stickers, religious propaganda on our local news and in our papers ("matters of faith" -- James Dobson, other DAILY conservative articles.

This is nothing but a ploy to shut the liberals up so that conservatives can have an even louder voice. It'll never happen. Keep dreaming. Ever heard of Free Speech?

[CCTAU 3,369]

College Campuses happen to be places where intellectual conversation blossoms. College students traditionally love to toss around ideas and hear the opinions of others. Colleges are places of learning and therefore places where different views are shared. Whether the students are liberal or conservative, they can form their own opinions and take it with them.

Puhleez! I sit here in Alabama and am confronted every day with the mindless chatter of conservatives on the radio, on my television, in my workplace, and out in the community. There's hardly a liberal voice available for those of us who would like an UNBIASED view of the world. If you live here...you cannot help but be exposed to bumper stickers, religious propaganda on our local news and in our papers ("matters of faith" -- James Dobson, other DAILY conservative articles.

This is nothing but a ploy to shut the liberals up so that conservatives can have an even louder voice. It'll never happen. Keep dreaming. Ever heard of Free Speech?

Al? Al? Is that you? Or just another of your brain-washed clones. To say taht conservatism overshadows liberalism in today's media is just idiocy. But then again, if you spout it long enough, another idiot will join you.

[FreeThinker 0]

So, all you can do is call me names?

Where is your proof refuting my statements???

Isn't that just like a conservative! Spout off with insults to redirect the conversation and get the other fired up, all the while speaking nothing about any real facts.

Where are your facts?

Here are a few of my facts:

Fox News -- radical conservative news program - BIASED

James Dobson -- big mouth conservative who runs "Focus on the Family" a radical conservative religious/political organization that uses scare tactics to brainwash their followers instead of providing them with facts. On staff are therapists working to "change" people's sexual orientation -- James Dobson's columns run in the Commentary section of the B'ham news (along with others: McManus, etc.) There is maybe 1 column that is moderate and it is usually the "my turn" column written by a reader.

Roy Moore -- made chief justice based on his Ten Commandments spoof. He cares only about the limelight...not about doing his job. And our Governor and Attorney General supported him until he refused to obey a court order.

Christian Coalition -- has a strong-hold on this state. Is extremely politically involved and is welcomed to be by our Governor.

Ride down the street and count how many cars have cross stickers with that stupid cartoon figure kneeling in prayer...or "got Jesus?" on them. Then, count how many liberal stickers you see. The radical right has a strong-hold on this state.

I'd like to think that our newspapers are unbiased. And, for the most part I think they try. It's tough, I'm sure, in this Republican climate. But, the Mobile Register is definitely radically conservative. Every editorial they run leans to the right. They supported Roy Moore...supported Bob Riley and every Republican running for office.

That's just to name a few...

Where are your facts?

[CCTAU 3,369]

Just like a liberal, you only have the ones that "stick" out. Go and buy a newsrag right now and count up the differences. There, are my facts.

I didn't call you names..........I implied it. And that's the same as NOT INHALING!

[MDM4AU 337]

Here are a few of my facts:

Fox News -- radical conservative news program - BIASED

I disagree with your "biased" remark. Are CNN, NY Times, LA Times, unbiased? And don't you think "radical" is a bit much?

James Dobson -- big mouth conservative who runs "Focus on the Family" a radical conservative religious/political organization that uses scare tactics to brainwash their followers instead of providing them with facts. On staff are therapists working to "change" people's sexual orientation -- James Dobson's columns run in the Commentary section of the B'ham news (along with others: McManus, etc.) There is maybe 1 column that is moderate and it is usually the "my turn" column written by a reader.

I would like to see a scare tactic from Dr. Dobson. I don't believe I have ever seen one of them. Secondly, your key word there is COMMENTARY. And who ever said the Bamaham News was a respectable paper? By the way, of the 4 articles on the OPINION page today there are 2 that are more right and 1 that is more middle ground and one more left. On the Ed page, there are three articles not counting the readers opinions. Two are regarding local government and the third...refers to the Republican led congress and leans left.

And our Governor and Attorney General supported him until he refused to obey a court order.

So they can't have opinions other than yours if they are in office? What laws have they created that have hurt you? And their job was done correctly if they failed to support his actions once he had a conflict with law.

Ride down the street and count how many cars have cross stickers with that stupid cartoon figure kneeling in prayer...or "got Jesus?" on them...

SO what you're sayig is, it is stupid to believe in Jesus or proclaim your faith through a car decal or bumper sticker? How has that offended anyone? Their standing up for what they believe in via signs on personal property is a, what..., GOD GIVEN RIGHT! " Ever heard of Free Speech? "

Are the DARWIN stickers, and the like just as stupid to you?

Every editorial they (Mobile Register) run leans to the right.

This is a majority conservative state. If you want to sell papers you are not going to re-print the LA Times or a paper like that one. Just the same, you will not sell the Bamaham News or Mobile Register in LA or Vermont, two very liberal states.

Read the Times editorials. Then read the Wall Street Journal Eds. Then a Vermont Paper. The times and Vermont paper are going to have more Left leaning eds than the WSJ or Bamaham news, etc. But again, these are opinion pieces! They are not presented as the NEWS.

NOW to call you out on your facts! I hate to break this to you but, your post was opinion backed by nothing but your obvious hate for anything non-liberal. You stated they were fact with nothing to back them up. All of the people you called out have differing opinions than you therefore you hate them. But it doesn't make your commentary full of facts.

For anyone to try and attempt to say that college campuses are full of differing opinions batted around by intellectuals is laughable. I went to two different colleges in this state. In both places, the instructors were more time than not, LIBERAL. I went toe to toe with a couple and lost because I was the student and they were "right." The whole "That's why I'm a teacher and your not," BS!

There's hardly a liberal voice available for those of us who would like an UNBIASED view of the world.

HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU THINK THIS MAKES ANY SENSE? Since when is a liberal view, UNBIASED? That's hilarious!!

YOUR CREDIBILITY

[FreeThinker 0]

Here are a few of my facts:

Fox News -- radical conservative news program - BIASED

I disagree with your "biased" remark. Are CNN, NY Times, LA Times, unbiased? And don't you think "radical" is a bit much?

James Dobson -- big mouth conservative who runs "Focus on the Family" a radical conservative religious/political organization that uses scare tactics to brainwash their followers instead of providing them with facts. On staff are therapists working to "change" people's sexual orientation -- James Dobson's columns run in the Commentary section of the B'ham news (along with others: McManus, etc.) There is maybe 1 column that is moderate and it is usually the "my turn" column written by a reader.

I would like to see a scare tactic from Dr. Dobson. I don't believe I have ever seen one of them. Secondly, your key word there is COMMENTARY. And who ever said the Bamaham News was a respectable paper? By the way, of the 4 articles on the OPINION page today there are 2 that are more right and 1 that is more middle ground and one more left. On the Ed page, there are three articles not counting the readers opinions. Two are regarding local government and the third...refers to the Republican led congress and leans left.

And our Governor and Attorney General supported him until he refused to obey a court order.

So they can't have opinions other than yours if they are in office? What laws have they created that have hurt you? And their job was done correctly if they failed to support his actions once he had a conflict with law.

Ride down the street and count how many cars have cross stickers with that stupid cartoon figure kneeling in prayer...or "got Jesus?" on them...

SO what you're sayig is, it is stupid to believe in Jesus or proclaim your faith through a car decal or bumper sticker? How has that offended anyone? Their standing up for what they believe in via signs on personal property is a, what..., GOD GIVEN RIGHT! " Ever heard of Free Speech? "

Are the DARWIN stickers, and the like just as stupid to you?

Every editorial they (Mobile Register) run leans to the right.

This is a majority conservative state. If you want to sell papers you are not going to re-print the LA Times or a paper like that one. Just the same, you will not sell the Bamaham News or Mobile Register in LA or Vermont, two very liberal states.

Read the Times editorials. Then read the Wall Street Journal Eds. Then a Vermont Paper. The times and Vermont paper are going to have more Left leaning eds than the WSJ or Bamaham news, etc. But again, these are opinion pieces! They are not presented as the NEWS.

NOW to call you out on your facts! I hate to break this to you but, your post was opinion backed by nothing but your obvious hate for anything non-liberal. You stated they were fact with nothing to back them up. All of the people you called out have differing opinions than you therefore you hate them. But it doesn't make your commentary full of facts.

For anyone to try and attempt to say that college campuses are full of differing opinions batted around by intellectuals is laughable. I went to two different colleges in this state. In both places, the instructors were more time than not, LIBERAL. I went toe to toe with a couple and lost because I was the student and they were "right." The whole "That's why I'm a teacher and your not," BS!

There's hardly a liberal voice available for those of us who would like an UNBIASED view of the world.

HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU THINK THIS MAKES ANY SENSE? Since when is a liberal view, UNBIASED? That's hilarious!!

YOUR CREDIBILITY

From Dictionary.com:

Conservative: 1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change

Well at least you are willing to admit that this is a "majority conservative state". And the reason that this is a majority conservative state is because the majority of the people of this state have never left their small towns or their small town mentality! Awareness comes through EXPOSURE. Awareness of other cultures, concepts, and people who are DIFFERENT comes from being exposed to those cultures, concepts, and people -- and hence, more of an understanding comes from that exposure. FEAR comes from IGNORANCE. And conservativism is based in fear. It is the fear of change that leads conservatives to always stay stuck in the mindset of yesterday. "This is how things have always been done --- so this must be the right way!" Slavery is a good example of this. Not until AWARENESS came about did people wake up and realize that slavery was wrong. It's the same way with most of the other things that conservatives hold dear: religion, heterosexuality, paternalism. It is the extreme fear of change that has created conservatives...Liberals aren't afraid of change...they embrace it. They embrace diversity and acceptance of ALL people, not just those who are deemed "moral".

Dr. James Dobson and his scare tactics: Here's just one example. I work in the field of mental health. One of my clients is a victim of Dr. Dobson's programs to "benefit" homosexuals. Dr. Dobson's foundation uses certain tactics to "lead homosexuals away from a dangerous lifestyle" -- just this statement alone is a major SCARE tactic designed to pit society against those who are gay and pit gays against themselves. This type of "counseling" has been proven to be HARMFUL. The risk of suicide among gay youth is very high and this type of counseling increases the risk. Being gay is not a choice and Dr. Dobson and his foundation do everything they can to spread misinformation that it is. Gays are disowned by their families every day because of the religious/moral beliefs...and James Dobson and his foundation certainly don't help matters. It would be more helpful to the world to preach a message of love -- not FEAR. (Notice the link again between conservatism and FEAR.)

And, I'm not talking about other states or national papers...I'm talking about THIS state...the State of Alabama and the media HERE. It's biased! You basically get a conservative viewpoint from every direction. My statement about the bumper stickers was to say that us "liberals" are bombarded every day with your conservative messages...so to be so concerned out "liberal" talk on college campuses is rediculous.

And...my guess as to why your college professors were more liberal is because they have more of an AWARENESS of the issues. They've had exposure time and time again to the issues -- and the people who are affected by those issues -- that you've only conceptualized in your head. THAT'S why their liberal and you are conservative. THAT'S why you'll NEVER get it.

[CCTAU 3,369]

And...my guess as to why your college professors were more liberal is because they have more of an AWARENESS of the issues. They've had exposure time and time again to the issues -- and the people who are affected by those issues -- that you've only conceptualized in your head. THAT'S why their liberal and you are conservative. THAT'S why you'll NEVER get it.

Yeah, well when one of them enters the "REAL" world and sees outside of the little 50 gallon drum the live in, I might listen to them. But you. you are rediculous to think that most college professors have an inkling of what goes on in the real world.

Keep talking Free, you are proving your lack of "worldly" knowledge with each key-stroke.

[FreeThinker 0]

And again you prove that the only way you know to have a discussion is by insulting those you disagree with rather than using the intellect that you may or may not possess.

All of my college professors at NYU (where I received my graduate degree) were very worldly and knowlegdable and AWARE of what is going on in the world. And a majority of my college professors at LSU (where I received my Bachelor's) were pretty much the same way. Most of them had studied at far off colleges and were quite knowledgable about other cultures (I studied psychology) and diiferent concepts other than the mainstream. Now, perhaps you went to a smaller college and your professors really didn't know anything about the "real" world (by the way, tell me more about your definition of the "real world", please), but mine did.

Also, there is such a thing as the separation of church and state...and professors aren't allowed to discuss their particular views and/or their particular brand of religion in the classroom. So, perhaps you see their discussion as "liberal" because they weren't talking about morals and/or religion and/or right and wrong as you see it. From what you describe ("college professors have no inkling of what goes on in the real world") it doesn't sound like your college professors were too bright. I guess you didn't learn much in college? I'm just going by what you said.

[CCTAU 3,369]

I knew enough to tell which ones actually had worked and collected a salary from someone other than an "educational" institution. And those that taught non-scientific subjects always had their "opinion" on how the world they had never lived in worked.

And from your bleeding heart, we can all tell that you agreed with your professors, because they thought just like you. Like I said before, when you live in a drum, you don't notice what goes on in the real world.

[FreeThinker 0]

ALL INSULT, NO INTELLECT...THAT'S YOU.

[CCTAU 3,369]

ALL INSULT, NO INTELLECT...THAT'S YOU.

TOO MUCH INTELLECT AND NOT ENOUGH GOOD SENSE...THAT'S YOU.

Now go and give all your money to save the liberals. You'd be surprised at the number of non-itellectuals who are NOT with you.

[MDM4AU 337]

Again, yours is still based mostly on opinion. You have no solid facts to back it up. BASED ON OPINION. I emphasize that because it would take way too much time to try to point out every little thing you posted. And, I do not disagree with you on all of it. Doesn't change anything about the OPINION shining through.

OPINION: a belief stronger than impression and less stronger than positive knowledge. --Merriam Webster, 1997

And once more...

There's hardly a liberal voice available for those of us who would like an UNBIASED view of the world.

UNBIASED:free from bias, unprejudiced. syn: impartial; objective --Meriam Webster, 1997

With your NYU education, explain to me how someone/something can be liberal AND unbiased?

Hence, my response:

YOUR CREDIBILITY

[FreeThinker 0]

I emphasize that because it would take way too much time to try to point out every little thing you posted. And, I do not disagree with you on all of it. Doesn't change anything about the OPINION shining through.

Well, that's about as vague as you can get. I guess you didn't want to take the energy it would take to come up with a response to my points. So, basically you just said, "Your facts are based in opinion and your opinion is wrong!" -- thank you for telling us that you think I'm wrong. That certainly makes everyone reading this agree with you, I'm sure.

[MDM4AU 337]

Way to dodge my question!

Are you a politician?

[CCTAU 3,369]

I emphasize that because it would take way too much time to try to point out every little thing you posted. And, I do not disagree with you on all of it. Doesn't change anything about the OPINION shining through.

Well, that's about as vague as you can get. I guess you didn't want to take the energy it would take to come up with a response to my points. So, basically you just said, "Your facts are based in opinion and your opinion is wrong!" -- thank you for telling us that you think I'm wrong. That certainly makes everyone reading this agree with you, I'm sure.

Maybe he just has to squeeze in his posts between doing "real" work. Many times we don't have the time or the energy to debate you on your level of piling it on. We were just "educated" by the school of experience and hard work and just know when we run into an idealist who cannot see things like most Americans. Maybe you call yourself Freethinker because it just seems too practical to go with the consensus of most Americans........

[MDM4AU 337]

I emphasize that because it would take way too much time to try to point out every little thing you posted. And, I do not disagree with you on all of it. Doesn't change anything about the OPINION shining through.

Well, that's about as vague as you can get. I guess you didn't want to take the energy it would take to come up with a response to my points. So, basically you just said, "Your facts are based in opinion and your opinion is wrong!" -- thank you for telling us that you think I'm wrong. That certainly makes everyone reading this agree with you, I'm sure.

I never said your opinion was wrong!

I said you are claiming your opinion to be FACT! There is a difference between the two.

Is that clear enough for you?

[FreeThinker 0]

Your response to my post was to state that I was wrong, not give me any idea as to why you feel that way, and then ask me a question? So, you want to not offer any input, yet you want me to answer you? That's just like a conservative -- unfair and unbalanced.

Here you go:

With your NYU education, explain to me how someone/something can be liberal AND unbiased?

As briefly as possible...I've traveled to many countries; I've studied different cultures, different religions; I've talked to and learned about people from of different races and sexualities. I've walked in their shoes and did my best to feel their pain. I've worked in THE FIELD. I've gone to the poor houses and I've seen the ones who are struggling to make their way in this world with little help from anyone. I have experience with their situations first-hand. That's what my NYU education did for me. It taught me that there are other people out there who are different from me. They were raised differently. They have different family backgrounds, different economic backgrounds.

Through EXPERIENCING what it is like for others to live, I have learned about the misconceptions that are rampant in our country...and conservatives tend to hold onto these misconceptions.

To be liberal means:

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

Do you see that part that says "open to new ideas for progress" ?? How can you be BIASED, yet open to new ideas?

biased =

1. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

2. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.

To me, the only ones on this message board who show true prejudice are some select conservatives who have stated this plain as day. The ones who show impartial judgment appear to be the conservatives who don't want to accept any "difference" amongst our people in this nation and are blind to the fact that people who are poor do not necessarily choose to be poor.

If it's a bad thing to be LIBERAL...so be it. Conservatives think God is on their side. Do you think God or Jesus would help the poor? Do you think God or Jesus would want to ease people's suffering? I think so. So, I think they'd most likely choose the liberal side over the conservative one.

[CCTAU 3,369]

So now, God and Jesus, only love the poor. The poor usually died during Jesus's time here on earth. Families are responsible for their own poor. but now we have many one parent families (who would have been shunned or stoned to death in Jesus' time) who can't take core of themselves, much less their families. so please don't start trying tosound like this is your spiritual mission. The poor were there then and they will be there many years from now. Jesus did not tolerate the lazy. The poor that you speak of have the means by which to succeed. But you keep saying that they aren't "given" the tools needed. A place to live and "FREE" education is theirs. I'm sure there are people in other countries who would die to trade places with our "poor". Many have died trying. You can lead a horse to water......now you are saying that maybe if we flavor the water it would be better. I'm saying its there, use it or shut up.

[MDM4AU 337]

AGAIN, I never, in any way shape or form, said you were WRONG! Why is that so hard for you to understand? KNOCK-KNOCK!! Come on freethinker! LOOK AT YOUR ORIGINAL POST AND MY ORIGINAL RESPONSE TO IT! From the beginning I said, YOU, FreeThinker, are calling (in your original post) your opinion FACT, when it - IN FACT - is NOT!

A liberal newspaper, such as the NY Times, LA Times, etc, is very biased as I stated very clearly! This was my point here!

Now, I didn't graduate form NYU, but I still don't see how my posts are so hard to understand. It is almost like you have it in your head that ALL CONSERVATIVES ARE IGNORANT AND SHOULD BE HATED, therefore you will call them wrong and ignore the point of their posts.

Therfore, I am through with you. You obviously have PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS about all conservatives.

By the way, I did not grow up hgaving everything. I got my first job at 15, 13 if you count selling the local newspaper door-to-door. Though my father paid my tuition through a previously arranged matter, I worked full time through school in order to pay for things. SO, before you go throwing all conservatives into this whole, "DON'T KNOW HOW OTHERS LIVED" little category, think again. I respect the fact that you "traveled" and "witnessed" all these things. But it doesn't make you the moral authority you appear to believe that you are.

[FreeThinker 0]

No, I said that Jesus stood up for those who didn't have a voice, those who suffered. I'm saying Jesus was more liberal than he was conservative.

You still paint the poor as lazy and at fault for their situation...and in most cases, that simply is not true. Do you think people want to be poor? Why would they want to live a life of poverty?

Jesus did not tolerate the lazy. The poor that you speak of have the means by which to succeed. But you keep saying that they aren't "given" the tools needed. A place to live and "FREE" education is theirs.

To quote from a previous post of mine:

I can recognize who is taking advantage of the system and who isn't. I have people who call me every week looking for hand outs. I give them some of the information/tools that can help them get what they need, but they usually have to work for it -- it's not a free hand-out. And, all the free hand-outs (of money) in the world won't get you out of a life of poverty, I don't care what you say. Then I hear from others who are in situations they couldn't help - and I help them with any resources I can. Again, I'm not talking about giving free handouts to anyone who is lazy enough to take them. I'm talking about people who actually need the help because of circumstances beyond their control. You seem to want to assume that EVERYONE who takes assistance doesn't deserve it or could change the fact that they need it. That just isn't so.

You can lead a horse to water......now you are saying that maybe if we flavor the water it would be better. I'm saying its there, use it or shut up.

And I'm not saying to flavor the water for the horse. But what I am saying is to help the horse get to the water, not just let it die of thirst and say that it shouldn't be thirsty in the first place and that it is the horses fault for being thirsty!

The difference is you are a pessimist and I am an optimist. Isn't that what it seems to boil down to? I always think that there is room for improvement and there is potential in human beings. No matter what hand we've been dealt, you are in charge of our own destiny. However, sometimes it takes assistance to help some people started and stay on a path. And for those who have been handed a raw deal in life...why shouldn't there be help for them? It's your judgment of those who need help that needs to be looked at. You want to generalize and say that no one should get assistance. That's prejudice. It's judgment without examining the facts. Our government gives assistance to many in one form or another...but our government is set up to do that.

Do you not believe in Social Security? Unemployment benefits? Medicare? Do you believe that people who receive these things don't deserve it? Most likely you think they do deserve it. So, is your synopsis of the poor just really based in prejudice and ignorance? Seems like it.

[CCTAU 3,369]

Do you not believe in Social Security? Unemployment benefits? Medicare? Do you believe that people who receive these things don't deserve it? Most likely you think they do deserve it. So, is your synopsis of the poor just really based in prejudice and ignorance? Seems like it.

Social security is not a frigging gift. I stinking pay for it. Do I believe in it? Hell no. Will I take advantage of it? Hell yeah, its my money. I won't get near what I should, but it’s forced on me.

I think that the judgment as to who really needs assistance is based on color not need. I know from several instances that color would have gotten certain disable family members more benefits or their benefits faster. And that's just WRONG.

Assistance should only be given fro a specific time. If you choose to make it a career, then you chose poorly.

Now in all my rantings, it is assumed that the sick and old are excluded from this. I am only talking of the able.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

Let's see if I get your point: Alabama is a majority conservative state because it's people are small town, have small town mentality, have never experienced other cultures, are full of fear and therefor are ignorant. My hometown in north AL has 4000 people on a good day. The primary sources of income are the two large textile mills. There is a church on every corner, or so it seems. To follow your logic, these people are conservative because they are trapped. Religion teaches them to fear change, so they are conservative, lost in a haze of prejudice and racism.

But I got out - worked my butt off, got an academic scholarship and paid my way through undergrad. Yes, my folks helped, but they worked hard to do it. Half of my high school class did the same thing - some had help from their folks, some didn't. And of that half, about 25% CAME BACK to that small town, after attending college or joining the military, and experiencing life. What about that little subset? They have seen the world, and are STILL conservative. They are college educated and are STILL conservative. They have seen the world and STILL go to church. I myself have traveled to three continents (including Africa), and still am a conservative.

I guess all of us poor kids should have been given free money and a first class ticket to Angola so we could travel outside our home counties and expand our horizons, and automatically become liberal, having been spared the fate of all the other small town Alabama rednecks.

How do you explain the strong conservative leanings of a place like Texas? Houston is the fourth largest city in the US, and is OVERWHELMINGLY conservative. Where's the small town mentality there?

What about police officers and military people? They have CERTAINLY seen the world, seen the poverty, seen the degredation, seen the same stuff you have, day in and day out, and yet are OVERWHELMINGLY conservative in viewpoint. Getting out and seeing the world didn't change their minds one bit, but rather strengthened their positions. I guess you will consider them all nazis and jackbooted thugs tho, right?

And having attended grad school myself, (Masters in Public Administration/City Management) I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between a lifelong tenured professor teaching human resources and personel policy theory, and a retired city HR manager teaching human resources and personnel policy theory. One writes papers and textbooks about ephemeral theories he has never actually applied in real life, and the other lectures on real life experiences and practical application of the lessons learned from those llife experiences. Guess which one is the most beneficial when you get your first municipal job? Guess which professor was liberal and guess which one was a conservative?

[CCTAU 3,369]

And having attended grad school myself, (Masters in Public Administration/City Management) I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between a lifelong tenured professor teaching human resources and personel policy theory, and a retired city HR manager teaching human resources and personnel policy theory. One writes papers and textbooks about ephemeral theories he has never actually applied in real life, and the other lectures on real life experiences and practical application of the lessons learned from those llife experiences. Guess which one is the most beneficial when you get your first municipal job? Guess which professor was liberal and guess which one was a conservative?

Thank you for eloquently stating what I tried to about real world professors. I know how I feel, I just can't put it into words. That's why I'm a programmer and don't deal with people.

It's always easier to shoot someone and step over their body than to argue (just kidding about the shooting).

[CarolinaTiger 0]

what a great thread!

i think freethinker is a wonderful addition to our collection of intellectually and morally superior posters. we are lucky to have him around and i hope he stays for a long time and continues to post. he is clearly more experienced and educated than the rest of us and we could learn a lot if only we were to listen to him and his wisdom.

for example, he has told us that alabama is a conservative state. thanks FT for sharing that with us. we are now in a better position to judge whether or not we wish to live there. if we find alabama's general 'conservativeness' to be too overwhelming for us, we can find somewhere else to live...thanks.

he also told us that Jesus was a liberal and that they (Jesus and liberals) stand up for those without a voice and who suffer. this was encouraging to hear, since most of us conservatives were under the impression that liberals were pro-abortion.

he's clearly illustrated that an NYU and LSU education is the "coup de grace" of higher education. i'm not sure why those other colleges even exist. i am sure both institutions are proud to count you among their graduates.

welcome to the board and please don't stop posting. we like having you around as a sterling example of how the more evolved people think.