Saban Wants A Lottery

[AUChizad 0]

By the way, Taylor and I nearly came to blows over this at the bar we frequent.

The bartenders were afraid. If we weren't regulars, and they didn't all know us, we would have been bounced for sure.

Moral: Don't take 10+ shots in addition to several beers and try to discuss political issues.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

By the way, Taylor and I nearly came to blows over this at the bar we frequent.

The bartenders were afraid. If we weren't regulars, and they didn't all know us, we would have been bounced for sure.

Moral: Don't take 10+ shots in addition to several beers and try to discuss political issues.

It's so sad when kids like you break up.

[runswithscissors 33]

Intuitively, the rich get richer thing makes sense. First of all, the rich play a lottery called the stock market, which has much better returns than the state lottery.

my 401(k) would heartily disagree with you for the past 3 weeks now.

[AU_tiger_2000 0]

Under the CURRENT SYSTEM in Alabama a kid can go to college with a 2.5 GPA, but daddy had enough money to send him to college only to fail out immediately. Meanwhile the kid that busted his ass at Sidney Linear made a 4.0, but his parents could not financially support sending him to college.

Wrong, colleges are absolutely aching to get kids with 4.0's, low income, and minorities. What kid do you know that gets a 4.0 in high school doesn't get to go to college? Between scholarships, grants, and student loans (and much better loans than I got, I was accruing interest before I even took my first class, a friend of mine who was classified as low income never had to pay a dime of interest during the life of his loan) you can get into school. Hasn't your wife or girlfriend ever made you watch Oprah? Half the people in the country that are CEO's flipped burgers to get through school?

[Tiger1992 999]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents since I live in Georgia and have seen how the lottery/HOPE has affected the state since its inception.

I live in the suburbs of Atlanta and have my whole life, except for my four years in the Loveliest Village.

I can tell you, the HOPE scholarship has done a LOT of good in Georgia, whether it's funding pre-k programs or providing opportunities for kids to go to college/increasing the level of student at the state funded schools.

I started Auburn in 1988, before the HOPE. Good for me (bad for my parents), or I would probably be on the Tech or UGAly forums right now. (I had no prior Auburn links, I just fell for the place when I visited.) Back to topic - when I started Auburn, the UGA admissions requirements were a joke. Spell your name right on the application and get an 850 or so SAT (out of 1600) and you were good to go.

The HOPE certainly isn't perfect, but it has certainly ratcheted up the level of student quality at UGA and the competition it takes to get in, as well as keeping more of the top high school students in state. Considering that I do live in Georgia and have no plans to leave in the immediate future, I'm glad to see all the state schools improving.

Something to think about. This is what the Fall 2006 average SAT/GPA's were at AU, UA, and UGA for first-time freshmen:

UGA - 3.76 GPA, 1232 SAT (1600 scale)

Auburn - 3.56 GPA, 1170 SAT

Bama - 3.40 GPA, 1130 SAT

Are those differences meaningful? Certainly not here on a message board. But ask a college president of admissions officer if those differences are meaningful when they are showing off their rankings on any of the plethora of magazines that rank colleges.

If you don't like the lottery and want to vote against it, fine by me, that's your right. I'm not trying to push a lottery as much as say I've seen the differences it has made in Georgia for the good. I'm not very familiar with the Florida situation folks are discussing, but if Alabama was serious about a lottery, all they'd have to do is come to Georgia and study how it has worked here and how to do it well. I won't get into the ridiculousness of some of the rich get richer/tax on the poor arguments I've seen on here. My personal opinion is, I'm glad Georgia has the lottery and it has done a lot of good in the state. Even if college scholarships weren't a part of the picture, it's worth it for all the pre-k program funding it has done.

And in case anyone gives us a damn, I'm a 36-year old Auburn educated, mostly conservative, married, white male, with two kids under 4, and my wife and I both have very good jobs and make good money. And yes, we might spend $10/month on Mega Millions tickets.

[AUChizad 0]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents since I live in Georgia and have seen how the lottery/HOPE has affected the state since its inception.

I live in the suburbs of Atlanta and have my whole life, except for my four years in the Loveliest Village.

I can tell you, the HOPE scholarship has done a LOT of good in Georgia, whether it's funding pre-k programs or providing opportunities for kids to go to college/increasing the level of student at the state funded schools.

I started Auburn in 1988, before the HOPE. Good for me (bad for my parents), or I would probably be on the Tech or UGAly forums right now. (I had no prior Auburn links, I just fell for the place when I visited.) Back to topic - when I started Auburn, the UGA admissions requirements were a joke. Spell your name right on the application and get an 850 or so SAT (out of 1600) and you were good to go.

The HOPE certainly isn't perfect, but it has certainly ratcheted up the level of student quality at UGA and the competition it takes to get in, as well as keeping more of the top high school students in state. Considering that I do live in Georgia and have no plans to leave in the immediate future, I'm glad to see all the state schools improving.

Something to think about. This is what the Fall 2006 average SAT/GPA's were at AU, UA, and UGA for first-time freshmen:

UGA - 3.76 GPA, 1232 SAT (1600 scale)

Auburn - 3.56 GPA, 1170 SAT

Bama - 3.40 GPA, 1130 SAT

Are those differences meaningful? Certainly not here on a message board. But ask a college president of admissions officer if those differences are meaningful when they are showing off their rankings on any of the plethora of magazines that rank colleges.

If you don't like the lottery and want to vote against it, fine by me, that's your right. I'm not trying to push a lottery as much as say I've seen the differences it has made in Georgia for the good. I'm not very familiar with the Florida situation folks are discussing, but if Alabama was serious about a lottery, all they'd have to do is come to Georgia and study how it has worked here and how to do it well. I won't get into the ridiculousness of some of the rich get richer/tax on the poor arguments I've seen on here. My personal opinion is, I'm glad Georgia has the lottery and it has done a lot of good in the state. Even if college scholarships weren't a part of the picture, it's worth it for all the pre-k program funding it has done.

And in case anyone gives us a damn, I'm a 36-year old Auburn educated, mostly conservative, married, white male, with two kids under 4, and my wife and I both have very good jobs and make good money. And yes, we might spend $10/month on Mega Millions tickets.

I think any rational person without a predetermined opinion that the lottery is evil and dragging society to hell can plainly see this.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

Intuitively, the rich get richer thing makes sense. First of all, the rich play a lottery called the stock market, which has much better returns than the state lottery.

my 401(k) would heartily disagree with you for the past 3 weeks now.

You're in it for the long haul, not three weeks, Mr. Buffett.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

BTW, the Dow gained 286 points today.

[AUslug 1]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents since I live in Georgia and have seen how the lottery/HOPE has affected the state since its inception.

I live in the suburbs of Atlanta and have my whole life, except for my four years in the Loveliest Village.

I can tell you, the HOPE scholarship has done a LOT of good in Georgia, whether it's funding pre-k programs or providing opportunities for kids to go to college/increasing the level of student at the state funded schools.

I started Auburn in 1988, before the HOPE. Good for me (bad for my parents), or I would probably be on the Tech or UGAly forums right now. (I had no prior Auburn links, I just fell for the place when I visited.) Back to topic - when I started Auburn, the UGA admissions requirements were a joke. Spell your name right on the application and get an 850 or so SAT (out of 1600) and you were good to go.

The HOPE certainly isn't perfect, but it has certainly ratcheted up the level of student quality at UGA and the competition it takes to get in, as well as keeping more of the top high school students in state. Considering that I do live in Georgia and have no plans to leave in the immediate future, I'm glad to see all the state schools improving.

Something to think about. This is what the Fall 2006 average SAT/GPA's were at AU, UA, and UGA for first-time freshmen:

UGA - 3.76 GPA, 1232 SAT (1600 scale)

Auburn - 3.56 GPA, 1170 SAT

Bama - 3.40 GPA, 1130 SAT

Are those differences meaningful? Certainly not here on a message board. But ask a college president of admissions officer if those differences are meaningful when they are showing off their rankings on any of the plethora of magazines that rank colleges.

If you don't like the lottery and want to vote against it, fine by me, that's your right. I'm not trying to push a lottery as much as say I've seen the differences it has made in Georgia for the good. I'm not very familiar with the Florida situation folks are discussing, but if Alabama was serious about a lottery, all they'd have to do is come to Georgia and study how it has worked here and how to do it well. I won't get into the ridiculousness of some of the rich get richer/tax on the poor arguments I've seen on here. My personal opinion is, I'm glad Georgia has the lottery and it has done a lot of good in the state. Even if college scholarships weren't a part of the picture, it's worth it for all the pre-k program funding it has done.

And in case anyone gives us a damn, I'm a 36-year old Auburn educated, mostly conservative, married, white male, with two kids under 4, and my wife and I both have very good jobs and make good money. And yes, we might spend $10/month on Mega Millions tickets.

I think any rational person without a predetermined opinion that the lottery is evil and dragging society to hell can plainly see this.

Both of you make sense, I'd be careful cause they will come after you next.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Both of you make sense, I'd be careful cause they will come after you next.

Yes. We make arguments that you choose to ignore as you rehash the tired old Church Folks Are Out To Get Us canard. Get a new schtick. This one's played out.

[TigerHeat 9]

Both of you make sense, I'd be careful cause they will come after you next.

Yes. We make arguments that you choose to ignore as you rehash the tired old Church Folks Are Out To Get Us canard. Get a new schtick. This one's played out.

Speak for yourself, TT. I'm out to get him.

[AUslug 1]

I'll leave the churches alone when the Alabama Christian Coalition quits taking Mississippi Indian casino money.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

I'll leave the churches alone when the Alabama Christian Coalition quits taking Mississippi Indian casino money.

While possibly a valid criticism, it has nothing to do with this debate or your paranoia.

[AUChizad 0]

I'll leave the churches alone when the Alabama Christian Coalition quits taking Mississippi Indian casino money.

While possibly a valid criticism, it has nothing to do with this debate or your paranoia.

Well, it does have something to do with the debate in that the church's stance is "Gambling's a terrible sin that will drag our society to hell...unless we can pull a profit."

[TitanTiger 20,510]

I'll leave the churches alone when the Alabama Christian Coalition quits taking Mississippi Indian casino money.

While possibly a valid criticism, it has nothing to do with this debate or your paranoia.

Well, it does have something to do with the debate in that the church's stance is "Gambling's a terrible sin that will drag our society to hell...unless we can pull a profit."

No it doesn't. You're reading headlines and knowing nothing about the details not to mention mischaracterizing my argument once again.

First, that Ralph Reed mess wasn't something that most state chapters even realized was going on when they received the money. I personally know that John Giles told everyone who ever gave money to the CC of AL when he was heading it up that he wanted all the money to be clean and not linked to any gambling interests or other shady stuff. Reed lied to him. This was part of the reason Giles ended up leaving the CC...because he lost faith in the people it was associated with.

Second, the CC is not a church. It's a political organization that purports to represent traditional moral values as they pertain to the political realm. If you think the CC truly represents the actual feelings and thoughts of the church or Christians on every matter, you view the world through an extremely small pinhole.

Third, either lose the stupid polemical responses to this and discuss it like a grown up or we can just shut down this thread and be done with the subject. I'm more than willing to talk about this and discuss our differences, but if you're going to keep painting the church and Christians with a broad brush and mischaracterizing my arguments, then the whole exercise is pointless and I have better things to do.

I have put forth clearly explained and pragmatic reasons for the positions I hold on this. If you're not sure what I actually said, go back and reread it then approach the subject from an informed perspective instead of just giving me boilerplate rants against strawmen. You are free to disagree of course, but at least direct your disagreement toward something I'm actually saying instead of this church-people bogeyman you've cobbled together.

P.S. I'm moving this to the politics forum since it has long ceased to be about Saban or any rival school.

[saniflush 0]

Bring in the lions.

[AUChizad 0]

First, that Ralph Reed mess wasn't something that most state chapters even realized was going on when they received the money. I personally know that John Giles told everyone who ever gave money to the CC of AL when he was heading it up that he wanted all the money to be clean and not linked to any gambling interests or other shady stuff. Reed lied to him. This was part of the reason Giles ended up leaving the CC...because he lost faith in the people it was associated with.

Second, the CC is not a church. It's a political organization that purports to represent traditional moral values as they pertain to the political realm. If you think the CC truly represents the actual feelings and thoughts of the church or Christians on every matter, you view the world through an extremely small pinhole.

First, I'm not the one that brought the Indian Reservations up. AUslug was. When you asked how this relates to the topic at hand, I merely answered you.

Third, either lose the stupid polemical responses to this and discuss it like a grown up or we can just shut down this thread and be done with the subject. I'm more than willing to talk about this and discuss our differences, but if you're going to keep painting the church and Christians with a broad brush and mischaracterizing my arguments, then the whole exercise is pointless and I have better things to do.

I have put forth clearly explained and pragmatic reasons for the positions I hold on this. If you're not sure what I actually said, go back and reread it then approach the subject from an informed perspective instead of just giving me boilerplate rants against strawmen. You are free to disagree of course, but at least direct your disagreement toward something I'm actually saying instead of this church-people bogeyman you've cobbled together.

I'm assuming the "stupid polemical response" you're referring to was the last one, which as I explained, was not intended to be. You suggested that AUSlug bringing the Alabama Christian Coalition and Indian Casino money had nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I pointed out how it did.

If you're suggesting that every post I made on the subject has been a "stupid polemical response", then I suggest that you're the one that should reread my responses. I prefer not to repeat my same argument over and over again. At a certain point it became obvious that those opposed to the lottery started at the conclusion that the lottery is going to drag our society to hell, and worked backwards from there to justify this conclusion. At that point it's no longer a winnable argument, but we just have to agree to disagree.

And you're the one that's built up a strawman in that the big bad lottery is an evil tool to further impoverish the poor and send rich kids to school for free, while sprinkling sin and depravity all along the way. This of course in your hypothetical situation of what will happen in Alabama, one of the last remaining states too stubborn to implement a lottery. Why don't we ask someone from a state in which the lottery is in effect? Oh wait, Tiger1992 already explained that the lottery has saved their school system, and how your fallacal idea that only poor people gamble is simply incorrect. You refuse to process that information however because you've already decided that a lottery is detrimental to society.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

First, I'm not the one that brought the Indian Reservations up. AUslug was. When you asked how this relates to the topic at hand, I merely answered you.

I know what he meant. It was still a non sequitur response. You agreeing with him is what dragged you into my response.

I'm assuming the "stupid polemical response" you're referring to was the last one, which as I explained, was not intended to be. You suggested that AUSlug bringing the Alabama Christian Coalition and Indian Casino money had nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I pointed out how it did.

If you're suggesting that every post I made on the subject has been a "stupid polemical response", then I suggest that you're the one that should reread my responses. I prefer not to repeat my same argument over and over again. At a certain point it became obvious that those opposed to the lottery started at the conclusion that the lottery is going to drag our society to hell, and worked backwards from there to justify this conclusion. At that point it's no longer a winnable argument, but we just have to agree to disagree.

And you're the one that's built up a strawman in that the big bad lottery is an evil tool to further impoverish the poor and send rich kids to school for free, while sprinkling sin and depravity all along the way.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you mischaracterize my argument. No one...I mean no one has brought up anything remotely connected to "sin" or "depravity". Neither did I come at it from a conspiratorial angle of it being an "evil tool" of anything. I could submit this example to Merriam Webster as a perfect example to provide with their definition of "strawman."

I specifically said that I don't see anything "intrinsically wrong" with buying a lottery ticket per se. What I do see is what the end result is:

- poor people provide the bulk of the money the lottery generates.

- middle and upper class kids are the ones that get the bulk of the college schollys the lottery money provides.

This is indisputable. This is what happens. I made no insinuation that it was a sinister plot or that it was some inherent evil. I simply pointed out that the end result is one I cannot support in good conscience.

This of course in your hypothetical situation of what will happen in Alabama, one of the last remaining states too stubborn to implement a lottery. Why don't we ask someone from a state in which the lottery is in effect? Oh wait, Tiger1992 already explained that the lottery has saved their school system, and how your fallacal idea that only poor people gamble is simply incorrect. You refuse to process that information however because you've already decided that a lottery is detrimental to society.

Given that I lived in Tennessee for 12 years and saw the lottery come in, what it was promised for, and what it has done, I'm every bit as qualified to speak to the subject as Tiger1992 is. I provided clear statistics showing this to be the case and could provide many more that show in virtually every situation where a lottery is present, that the very things I'm pointing out are true. Don't tell me what I've already decided, especially when you're flatly refusing to hear what I've already told you about how I've come to this decision.

I didn't decide a priori that gambling or lotteries are bad. Let that sink in real deep and don't throw it out there again because it is flat-out, 100% untrue. I didn't start with a moral objection and work my way backward. I've read the arguments from both sides. I had to do it to place an informed vote back when Tennessee implemented a lottery. While I understand the desire to help kids get college educations, the means with which it is done gives me trouble. Perhaps if the lottery money instead went to fix our deplorable K-12 school system and targeted the worst situations (which are in poor communities) first, then perhaps that would mitigate my concerns. But until then, I will vote against it and if someone asks why, I will explain it to them.

[AUslug 1]

Thanks for the to point post Titan and I understand where you are coming from and you make a valid point. Sorry if I came off cynical but that is how I feel whenever the topic of the lotto comes up, too much religion and not enough level headedness like your posts. I would love to see a lotto in this state geared to helping 5-12 schools and helping kids get a college education. Do I think it will happen in the near future, no. Between the politicans using religion to beat down the lotto and the others trying to line their pockets with it, it just isn't in the cards.

[CCTAU 3,342]

NO LOTTERY FOR ALABAMA.

If you guys get one, it may cut into my kid's HOPE money. You know us rich people don't deserve it as much as the poor kids. But I just can't bring myself to tell my kids to quit trying to get good grades just because someone thinks I make too much money for them to reap the benefits of THEIR hard work.

So just keep having your PO folks send their money to Georgia. That'll teach'em.

[TexasTiger 13,006]

I agree with Titan.

Every study I've seen shows that those who can least afford it, fund the lottery. Moreover, at least in Texas, the ads for the lottery tend to sell a "get rich quick" appeal that encourages people to play the lotto, buy expensive "scratch off" cards, etc., with the underlying message that games of chance are the path to success. Religion aside, I do think there is something just wrong about the STATE encouraging gambling, especially when they know it is the poor who play the most, at the expense of their kids.

Societies tend to fund that which they value the most. Education should be affordable. It used to be more affordable. Probably every state in the Union now funds a much smaller percentage of their higher ed institutions than they did 20-30 years ago. We've made a decision not to fund education like we used to and we are reaping the consequences of that choice. Encouraging people to throw their money away on a game of chance is hardly the only hope we have of funding education. It's just the easiest way for most middle-class folks to have it done.

[Tiger1992 999]

NO LOTTERY FOR ALABAMA.

If you guys get one, it may cut into my kid's HOPE money. You know us rich people don't deserve it as much as the poor kids. But I just can't bring myself to tell my kids to quit trying to get good grades just because someone thinks I make too much money for them to reap the benefits of THEIR hard work.

So just keep having your PO folks send their money to Georgia. That'll teach'em.

What he said.