Bill Maher and Brian Levin Discuss Islam

[SuperNova 0]

But you are crazy enough to believe that all this "something" that we see self-created its own existence from nothing.

Agreed, but would religion exist without humans? This "something" exist now with or without humans and what that something really is no one will ever know. However, people use religion to bridge the gap between the known and the unknown. Religion is real to the people who believe in it. I don't have a problem with religions when they are used correctly, to be a positive, caring, supporting, set of ideals and practices. But as humans thru history have been evil and like to use things to gain power and control people and religion can be a tool to manipulate others. If religion is used as a tool to manipulate others, kill others, and suppress people then that is not a religion or a belief system of any sorts.

The reason everyone argues about religion is because it is very personal. Every has a different set of beliefs, and to make things more complex these personal beliefs change all the time because of what happens to us in life.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Agreed, but would religion exist without humans?

I wouldn't think so. Religion is an interaction between a god and humans. Without humans, there isn't a religion per se I would guess. But that's not the same thing as saying there is no supernatural being.

This "something" exist now with or without humans and what that something really is no one will ever know. However, people use religion to bridge the gap between the known and the unknown. Religion is real to the people who believe in it. I don't have a problem with religions when they are used correctly, to be a positive, caring, supporting, set of ideals and practices. But as humans thru history have been evil and like to use things to gain power and control people and religion can be a tool to manipulate others. If religion is used as a tool to manipulate others, kill others, and suppress people then that is not a religion or a belief system of any sorts.

That doesn't really address the faith that it takes to believe that all of this you see and know about earth and our universe and all that inhabit it came spontaneously self-created out of nothing. All I was pointing out is that it's no crazier to believe in a God that facilitated the creation of all this vs believing it poofed into being all on its own.

[jj3jordan 2,051]

Good try TT, but these guys are not going to admit the flaws in their belief system. If nova or 59 thinks his wife is a descendant of an ape, then so be it.

[Aufan59 62]

Then you believe that all this came from nothing and managed to become something all on its own. Or you somehow believe that something eternally existed, which is a whole other problem.

Why is that a whole other problem?

I don't have a particular belief about the origin of existence. Maybe nothing came from something, something always existed, or we are a sadistic god's play toys. I just know that a belief in god is not particularly useful nor logical to me, so I reject the belief.

In fact a belief in god had previously brought me much anguish. How could someone intentionally create so much suffering? I prefer to believe that there is not such an evil being.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Good try TT, but these guys are not going to admit the flaws in their belief system. If nova or 59 thinks his wife is a descendant of an ape, then so be it.

To be accurate, they don't believe human descended from apes. Evolution teaches that apes and humans share a common ancestor, not that one descended from the other.

And again, a straight literalistic reading of the Creation account from Genesis is not the only alternative to a completely naturalistic evolution understanding of our origins.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Then you believe that all this came from nothing and managed to become something all on its own. Or you somehow believe that something eternally existed, which is a whole other problem.

Why is that a whole other problem?

I don't have a particular belief about the origin of existence. Maybe nothing came from something, something always existed, or we are a sadistic god's play toys. I just know that a belief in god is not particularly useful to me, so I reject the belief.

Because you chide one person for having faith than an intelligent supernatural being is out there while you have faith that either somehow everything came from nothing all on its own or that somehow some impersonal thing (matter, energy, perhaps both) just eternally existed. You don't have any grounds to be looking down your nose on them.

[SuperNova 0]

I see what you are saying, but religion defines how you see the universe and how everything was created and your faith in this makes it real to you. And what you believe conflicts with the fact that some others think that all of this spontaneously created itself with no direction other than chance.

Personally I can see it from both sides or in this case infinite sides, but I respect whatever people believe as long as it sends a positive message and that is the main point. All this other stuff does not really make a difference in your day to day lives.

[Aufan59 62]

Titan, I am not looking down my nose at anyone... well maybe I was looking down at the Islamic terrorists by calling them "more crazy".

Also, I do not have faith in either explanation you offered for a naturalistic origin of existence. I readily admit that we could be god's creation... I am an agnostic after all.

However the belief in god does me no good, thus I reject it. A rejection in a belief in god does not automatically mean I have faith in other explanations as you have assumed.

[SuperNova 0]

Good try TT, but these guys are not going to admit the flaws in their belief system. If nova or 59 thinks his wife is a descendant of an ape, then so be it.

That is not even close to what I was saying. Your missing the point.

What I was saying was that everyone has a different view point on what religion means to them.

[IndianTiger 95]

Bill Maher's Religulous movie is funny...travels around the world and no religion is spared

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Titan, I am not looking down my nose at anyone... well maybe I was looking down at the Islamic terrorists by calling them "more crazy".

When you make fun of someone for praying by saying they are talking to themselves, you most certainly are.

Also, I do not have faith in either explanation you offered for a naturalistic origin of existence. I readily admit that we could be god's creation... I am an agnostic after all.

Then why make dogmatic statements that someone is silly for praying? It might be the most sane thing anyone ever does...if you're really agnostic.

However the belief in god does me no good, thus I reject it. A rejection in a belief in god does not automatically mean I have faith in other explanations as you have assumed.

I don't make decisions on what to believe based on whether I think it personally does me good. I try to make decisions on what to believe based on what I think is true.

[Aufan59 62]

I never said someone was silly for praying. I think prayer/self reflection/talking to yourself are valuable.

I'm an agnostic, so I think that whether god exists is unknowable, and thus belief in a god is independent from truth. To me, believing that such a bastard exists only upsets me, so I choose not to believe.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

You're right, "crazy" is the word you used.

You think praying is talking to yourself and thus to pray to God for someone else is crazy.

I'm just saying we all have faith in things we have no way of being able to really prove. We can look at the evidence, we can draw some conclusions and inferences, but we really can't prove it...at least to a degree that would necessarily convince another.

To me, believing that there is no God is upsetting. But I'm not in favor of continuing to delude myself just to feel better either. If I really believed there was no God, I'd just have to come to terms with it and move on from there. I still believe because I still think it's the truth.

[Aufan59 62]

You're right, "crazy" is the word you used.

You think praying is talking to yourself and thus to pray to God for someone else is crazy.

Again, you missed it. Try actually quoting me instead of mincing my words.

I'm just saying we all have faith in things we have no way of being able to really prove. We can look at the evidence, we can draw some conclusions and inferences, but we really can't prove it...at least to a degree that would necessarily convince another.

It is possible to not have faith in anything you cannot prove. I am not one of these people, as I always have faith Auburn sports teams will do well. But I don't have faith in any explanation as to the beginning of existence. They all have their flaws... must I pick one to have faith in? I think not.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

You're right, "crazy" is the word you used.

You think praying is talking to yourself and thus to pray to God for someone else is crazy.

Again, you missed it. Try actually quoting me instead of mincing my words.

You: All religious people are crazy, it is just that some are more crazy than others.

Weegle: Based on what?

You: The overwhelming evidence...

Weegle: Which is?

You: Talking to yourself and pretending this helps other people...i.e. praying.

How exactly did I misinterpret that?

It is possible to not have faith in anything you cannot prove. I am not one of these people, as I always have faith Auburn sports teams will do well. But I don't have faith in any explanation as to the beginning of existence. They all have their flaws... must I pick one to have faith in? I think not.

You believe in a completely naturalistic explanation for our origins. To do so requires a certain leap of faith whether you like those semantics or not. Call it what you will.

[Wareagletd 0]

Based on the science you believe in, a science law states that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. So if there was nothing to begin with, without some supernatural interference, nothing can be created.

[homersapien 11,367]

I think it's crazy to look around at this world and this universe and all its amazing complexity and think that way, way, way back when, somehow, someway there was just some energy of some sort that managed to somehow create all this "something" out of nothing. But not only that, but that it would develop over the years and somehow manage to create not just inanimate matter, but life. And not just life, but intelligent life with a will and desires and concepts such as love and beauty.

Crazy cuts both ways, bro.

So, let me see if I can confirm your position:

Science is crazy. (Presumably "crazy" is the equivalent of worthless or invalid.)

Does that sound about right?

[homersapien 11,367]

I was simply agreeing with Bill Maher, the subject of this thread.

He agrees that religious people are crazy, but this doesn't mean you can equate Christian craziness to Islamic terrorist craziness.

Posting "prayers sent" after talking to yourself in hopes that this will help some stranger, you are crazy. Not as crazy as blowing up bombs to kill people, but it is still crazy.

Crazy is believing that the universe came about through something called the "Big Bang THEORY" and believing that billions of years ago we crawled out of the ocean as some sort of ancient organism and then magically evolved into the intelligent beings we are today. It takes mountains of more faith to believe that than to believe that a creator created it and us.

So, let me try to clarify your position: The theory of evolution is false.

Is that fair?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I think it's crazy to look around at this world and this universe and all its amazing complexity and think that way, way, way back when, somehow, someway there was just some energy of some sort that managed to somehow create all this "something" out of nothing. But not only that, but that it would develop over the years and somehow manage to create not just inanimate matter, but life. And not just life, but intelligent life with a will and desires and concepts such as love and beauty.

Crazy cuts both ways, bro.

So, let me see if I can confirm your position:

Science is crazy. (Presumably "crazy" is the equivalent of worthless or invalid.)

Does that sound about right?

You're really bad at this.

[homersapien 11,367]

I do believe in a completely naturalistic explanation... it is a more useful belief than assuming god is responsible.

Then you believe that all this came from nothing and managed to become something all on its own. Or you somehow believe that something eternally existed, which is a whole other problem.

Have you ever considered that it is not mandatory to believe in specific creation explanation? There is nothing wrong with admitting you don't know or that there are limits to our(your) understanding.

And one big advantage of admitting you don't know (well aside from it being factual) is that it doesn't require the dismissal of what we actually do know, as revealed by science.

[homersapien 11,367]

Is this fun when you know you're not going to change the other person's opinion?

Changing opinions has nothing to do with it. But yes, it is fun anyway.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

I do believe in a completely naturalistic explanation... it is a more useful belief than assuming god is responsible.

Then you believe that all this came from nothing and managed to become something all on its own. Or you somehow believe that something eternally existed, which is a whole other problem.

Have you ever considered that it is not mandatory to believe in specific creation explanation? There is nothing wrong with admitting you don't know or that there are limits to our(your) understanding.

And one big advantage of admitting you don't know (well aside from it being factual) is that it doesn't require the dismissal of what we actually do know, as revealed by science.

Which part of what I said indicated to you that I was dismissing science?

[homersapien 11,367]

Good try TT, but these guys are not going to admit the flaws in their belief system. If nova or 59 thinks his wife is a descendant of an ape, then so be it.

Apes and humans both descended from common ancestors so maybe you ought to study up a little before you start attacking evolution.

I take it you don't have any sort of science degree.

[homersapien 11,367]

I think it's crazy to look around at this world and this universe and all its amazing complexity and think that way, way, way back when, somehow, someway there was just some energy of some sort that managed to somehow create all this "something" out of nothing. But not only that, but that it would develop over the years and somehow manage to create not just inanimate matter, but life. And not just life, but intelligent life with a will and desires and concepts such as love and beauty.

Crazy cuts both ways, bro.

So, let me see if I can confirm your position:

Science is crazy. (Presumably "crazy" is the equivalent of worthless or invalid.)

Does that sound about right?

You're really bad at this.

Well apparently. Did you not understand my question?

[homersapien 11,367]

I do believe in a completely naturalistic explanation... it is a more useful belief than assuming god is responsible.

Then you believe that all this came from nothing and managed to become something all on its own. Or you somehow believe that something eternally existed, which is a whole other problem.

Have you ever considered that it is not mandatory to believe in specific creation explanation? There is nothing wrong with admitting you don't know or that there are limits to our(your) understanding.

And one big advantage of admitting you don't know (well aside from it being factual) is that it doesn't require the dismissal of what we actually do know, as revealed by science.

Which part of what I said indicated to you that I was dismissing science?

Nothing. But then, I didn't say you dismissed science. Did I?