A critique of transgenderism

[TitanTiger 20,506]

Their sexuality identity is reality. Again, you can't dictate another's sexual identity, which is exactly what you are doing by describing it as unreal.

You are declaring something which you have not proven. This is what we've been debating the whole time. Just because someone tells you something is their "identity", especially when it flies in the face of everything you can see, touch, test and measure, doesn't mean it's reality. Not anymore than the person that believes they are a wolf or a house cat.

Your last sentence is true enough as long as it's client driven. Obviously if they are conflicted about their sexual identity and want help on sorting that out, you provide them help.

The problem is, you believe the only kind of help that should be given is in the direction of encouraging them in their belief that their mind is telling them the truth while their body is lying to them. To suggest that it might be their mind that's messing with them is somehow cruel and wrong. Even if they want to to align their mind with what the rest of their biology indicates they really are.

And it's not the job of psychologists to force anyone into some preconceived notion of what is normal as long as they don't represent a danger to themselves or other. Even then the emphasis should be on helping the patient to cope, including helping them to change if they want to change.

You don't even believe that....except for this one thing. Any other situation where a person is clearly not thinking correctly about what they see in the mirror you would expect a psychologist to help them align their mind with physical reality, not the other way around.

I think your concept of what psychologists do is flawed. They don't seek out problems or untruths to unilaterally rectify.

You cannot help anyone if they don't perceive they have a problem. I suppose you can take measures to keep them from hurting others, but you can't change them unless they are receptive to such change. You can always test their conviction, but you can't change it unilaterally.

Never suggested such.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

I'm in as much of a position to tell someone, "You are not a woman, you are a man. You have XY chromosomes, you have a penis and testicles and the complete absence of ovaries, a vagina, a cervix and so on" as I would be to tell someone, "I don't care how many times you tell me you identify as a giraffe, you are a human being. Your DNA is human, you do not have a long neck, long bony legs or a yellow and brown fur pattern."

Well, except in the former case it is quite possible for one to possess all the physical elements of the opposite sex as part of their natural make-up.

No so for the latter case.

Thus the problem with that analogy.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

At this point, we're just talking in circles. I'm going to bow out, or at least take a break. I can't keep up with all the back and forth on this and feel like we're merely repeating ourselves.

[homersapien 11,410]

People who want plastic surgery typically get it, unless it has the possibility of doing them harm, then the physician may opt to refuse.

Neither do people who don't have a financial interest in it encourage people to pursue radical changes to themselves. And even people with a conscience that do have a financial interest will often refuse to do it. Because we understand that there's something going on in their head that doesn't line up with reality on the ground.

Sorry I don't understand that.

People who want plastic surgery normally get it. But frequently, people who don't make money off the procedures see this crazy behavior of thinking everything is wrong with their various body parts will speak up and discourage them from doing so. Even doctors who do profit from the surgery will refuse to do it. And that's because regardless of their freedom to mutilate themselves, professionals and others see that there is something going on in their head that's off.

Is that clearer?

I suppose. I'm just not sure what the point it. But it doesn't matter.

[homersapien 11,410]

At this point, we're just talking in circles. I'm going to bow out, or at least take a break. I can't keep up with all the back and forth on this and feel like we're merely repeating ourselves.

I agree. That's why I said my comments are going right past you. We've long past the point to just disagree.

[homersapien 11,410]

I'm in as much of a position to tell someone, "You are not a woman, you are a man. You have XY chromosomes, you have a penis and testicles and the complete absence of ovaries, a vagina, a cervix and so on" as I would be to tell someone, "I don't care how many times you tell me you identify as a giraffe, you are a human being. Your DNA is human, you do not have a long neck, long bony legs or a yellow and brown fur pattern."

Well, except in the former case it is quite possible for one to possess all the physical elements of the opposite sex as part of their natural make-up.

No so for the latter case.

Thus the problem with that analogy.

Sorry, I don't buy that.

Well, unless you want to argue some sort of racial memory associated with evolution, it seems self-apparent to me.

Look at it this way. While it is quite possible to be born with both female and male body parts, it's not possible to be born with both human and giraffe parts. In fact, we all have inherent female and male components in our make-up but not giraffe components.

(Although I could make an esoteric argument for it based on evolution. )

[homersapien 11,410]

Key phrase. But that's not what you have been arguing. You have been coming from the point that right is right and wrong is wrong, based on the anatomy one is born with....

I have, not once, in this thread argued that we should go out and force people to change. My issue is that right now, when they seek help, we (colloquially, as in psychologists in this country) are affirming these feelings and rather than trying to help them get their mind to align with the reality of their anatomy and chromosomes, we are actively doing the opposite - encouraging them to start down a path of dressing, looking and behaving like the other sex. Even to the point of surgically altering their bodies, taking hormones and other things to make them appear more like this sex their mind believes they "really" are. Hell, we even require insurance to cover it in many if not all cases. Courts rule that the state has to pay for prisoners to have sex-reassignment surgery. And we have a society that says if the person believes in their head that they are the opposite sex, everyone has to accommodate that belief whether it's restrooms and locker rooms, dorms and living quarters that are single sex only, and even sports teams. That's what I'm talking about here. I have zero idea where you came up with the belief that I was arguing we should be yanking folks off the street to force them to change.

That's not what I said. You did imply that people who were otherwise happy in their sexual identity needed therapy regardless.

Coercion doesn't necessarily mean physical coercion. It can be psychological coercion, such as with the Christian reparative therapy people.

[homersapien 11,410]

Their sexuality identity is reality. Again, you can't dictate another's sexual identity, which is exactly what you are doing by describing it as unreal.

You are declaring something which you have not proven. This is what we've been debating the whole time. Just because someone tells you something is their "identity", especially when it flies in the face of everything you can see, touch, test and measure, doesn't mean it's reality. Not anymore than the person that believes they are a wolf or a house cat.

That sexuality exists outside of ones genitalia is an ipso facto given. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

There's no need for me to "prove" it.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

Key phrase. But that's not what you have been arguing. You have been coming from the point that right is right and wrong is wrong, based on the anatomy one is born with....

I have, not once, in this thread argued that we should go out and force people to change. My issue is that right now, when they seek help, we (colloquially, as in psychologists in this country) are affirming these feelings and rather than trying to help them get their mind to align with the reality of their anatomy and chromosomes, we are actively doing the opposite - encouraging them to start down a path of dressing, looking and behaving like the other sex. Even to the point of surgically altering their bodies, taking hormones and other things to make them appear more like this sex their mind believes they "really" are. Hell, we even require insurance to cover it in many if not all cases. Courts rule that the state has to pay for prisoners to have sex-reassignment surgery. And we have a society that says if the person believes in their head that they are the opposite sex, everyone has to accommodate that belief whether it's restrooms and locker rooms, dorms and living quarters that are single sex only, and even sports teams. That's what I'm talking about here. I have zero idea where you came up with the belief that I was arguing we should be yanking folks off the street to force them to change.

That's not what I said. You did imply that people who were otherwise happy in their sexual identity needed therapy regardless.

Coercion doesn't necessarily mean physical coercion. It can be psychological coercion, such as with the Christian reparative therapy people.

You do realize that even the Christian reparative therapy people weren't corralling people in for therapy. People came to them, unhappy with their sexual orientation and desiring to change it.

[AUDub 11,160]

Key phrase. But that's not what you have been arguing. You have been coming from the point that right is right and wrong is wrong, based on the anatomy one is born with....

I have, not once, in this thread argued that we should go out and force people to change. My issue is that right now, when they seek help, we (colloquially, as in psychologists in this country) are affirming these feelings and rather than trying to help them get their mind to align with the reality of their anatomy and chromosomes, we are actively doing the opposite - encouraging them to start down a path of dressing, looking and behaving like the other sex. Even to the point of surgically altering their bodies, taking hormones and other things to make them appear more like this sex their mind believes they "really" are. Hell, we even require insurance to cover it in many if not all cases. Courts rule that the state has to pay for prisoners to have sex-reassignment surgery. And we have a society that says if the person believes in their head that they are the opposite sex, everyone has to accommodate that belief whether it's restrooms and locker rooms, dorms and living quarters that are single sex only, and even sports teams. That's what I'm talking about here. I have zero idea where you came up with the belief that I was arguing we should be yanking folks off the street to force them to change.

That's not what I said. You did imply that people who were otherwise happy in their sexual identity needed therapy regardless.

Coercion doesn't necessarily mean physical coercion. It can be psychological coercion, such as with the Christian reparative therapy people.

You do realize that even the Christian reparative therapy people weren't corralling people in for therapy. People came to them, unhappy with their sexual orientation and desiring to change it.

Can you produce a statistic for this line of reasoning, Titan? In most cases in familiar with, people were often forced to attend these retreats by friends and family, particularly parents forcing teenage, or in some cases, younger, children to undergo the therapy. I'd also be curious about the relapse (for lack of a better term) rate.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

Key phrase. But that's not what you have been arguing. You have been coming from the point that right is right and wrong is wrong, based on the anatomy one is born with....

I have, not once, in this thread argued that we should go out and force people to change. My issue is that right now, when they seek help, we (colloquially, as in psychologists in this country) are affirming these feelings and rather than trying to help them get their mind to align with the reality of their anatomy and chromosomes, we are actively doing the opposite - encouraging them to start down a path of dressing, looking and behaving like the other sex. Even to the point of surgically altering their bodies, taking hormones and other things to make them appear more like this sex their mind believes they "really" are. Hell, we even require insurance to cover it in many if not all cases. Courts rule that the state has to pay for prisoners to have sex-reassignment surgery. And we have a society that says if the person believes in their head that they are the opposite sex, everyone has to accommodate that belief whether it's restrooms and locker rooms, dorms and living quarters that are single sex only, and even sports teams. That's what I'm talking about here. I have zero idea where you came up with the belief that I was arguing we should be yanking folks off the street to force them to change.

That's not what I said. You did imply that people who were otherwise happy in their sexual identity needed therapy regardless.

Coercion doesn't necessarily mean physical coercion. It can be psychological coercion, such as with the Christian reparative therapy people.

You do realize that even the Christian reparative therapy people weren't corralling people in for therapy. People came to them, unhappy with their sexual orientation and desiring to change it.

Can you produce a statistic for this line of reasoning, Titan? In most cases in familiar with, people were often forced to attend these retreats by friends and family, particularly parents forcing teenage, or in some cases, younger, children to undergo the therapy. I'd also be curious about the relapse (for lack of a better term) rate.

I'm not sure such a statistic exists. But even those who are against it wouldn't go so far to say "most" cases were that way. They say things like "too often, young people are forced to undergo Conversion Therapy by parents and ministers who refuse to accept that they are gay."

As far as relapse, from what I understand, the therapy didn't have much of a success rate overall, though some reported it worked or at least helped. Whether that's because of the specifics of the therapy or the concept itself I don't know. I wasn't so much arguing in favor of the therapy so much as I was pointing out that people do seek out people to help them because they have unwanted feelings and attractions and want help changing them. It's not some off the wall thing for a person to want that.

[AUUSN 823]

I know this is off topic but I thought I'd post it: Transgender Navy SEAL to primary Steny Hoyer: http://thehill.com/policy/defense/232750-transgender-navy-seal-running-against-steny-hoyer

[AUDub 11,160]

I'm not sure such a statistic exists. But even those who are against it wouldn't go so far to say "most" cases were that way. They say things like "too often, young people are forced to undergo Conversion Therapy by parents and ministers who refuse to accept that they are gay."

I tried to frame it carefully, as my assumption is limited to my experience on the matter with a few friends. I don't know enough about it to make a blunt statement of fact on the matter.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

You'll have to explain what you mean here. It makes no sense to me. Are you saying that one's intelligence plays a role in determining one's sexuality? Are you comparing their "ability" to know their own sexuality to a transgender?

As for your question, I would imagine a transgender man "knows" his true sexuality the same way you or I do.

You asked how my friends knew they had no gay inborn trait or gene? They are extremely well educated and state emphatically, it was a sexual choice. Genes don't disappear right? Plus, they admittedly have no gay feelings now.

I asked how a man that feels like he has a woman inside his body knew he had said body within him? Drum roll please..........

[homersapien 11,410]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

You'll have to explain what you mean here. It makes no sense to me. Are you saying that one's intelligence plays a role in determining one's sexuality? Are you comparing their "ability" to know their own sexuality to a transgender?

As for your question, I would imagine a transgender man "knows" his true sexuality the same way you or I do.

You asked how my friends knew they had no gay inborn trait or gene? They are extremely well educated and state emphatically, it was a sexual choice. Genes don't disappear right? Plus, they admittedly have no gay feelings now.

I asked how a man that feels like he has a woman inside his body knew he had said body within him? Drum roll please..........

That's not really an answer.

But it's possible it was a "true" choice for them without any predispositions. Highly unlikely, but possible.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

You'll have to explain what you mean here. It makes no sense to me. Are you saying that one's intelligence plays a role in determining one's sexuality? Are you comparing their "ability" to know their own sexuality to a transgender?

As for your question, I would imagine a transgender man "knows" his true sexuality the same way you or I do.

You asked how my friends knew they had no gay inborn trait or gene? They are extremely well educated and state emphatically, it was a sexual choice. Genes don't disappear right? Plus, they admittedly have no gay feelings now.

I asked how a man that feels like he has a woman inside his body knew he had said body within him? Drum roll please..........

That's not really an answer.

But it's possible it was a "true" choice for them without any predispositions. Highly unlikely, but possible.

If you don't mind, please provide your thoughts on the remainder of my post. Thanks in advance!

[homersapien 11,410]

Key phrase. But that's not what you have been arguing. You have been coming from the point that right is right and wrong is wrong, based on the anatomy one is born with....

I have, not once, in this thread argued that we should go out and force people to change. My issue is that right now, when they seek help, we (colloquially, as in psychologists in this country) are affirming these feelings and rather than trying to help them get their mind to align with the reality of their anatomy and chromosomes, we are actively doing the opposite - encouraging them to start down a path of dressing, looking and behaving like the other sex. Even to the point of surgically altering their bodies, taking hormones and other things to make them appear more like this sex their mind believes they "really" are. Hell, we even require insurance to cover it in many if not all cases. Courts rule that the state has to pay for prisoners to have sex-reassignment surgery. And we have a society that says if the person believes in their head that they are the opposite sex, everyone has to accommodate that belief whether it's restrooms and locker rooms, dorms and living quarters that are single sex only, and even sports teams. That's what I'm talking about here. I have zero idea where you came up with the belief that I was arguing we should be yanking folks off the street to force them to change.

That's not what I said. You did imply that people who were otherwise happy in their sexual identity needed therapy regardless.

Coercion doesn't necessarily mean physical coercion. It can be psychological coercion, such as with the Christian reparative therapy people.

You do realize that even the Christian reparative therapy people weren't corralling people in for therapy. People came to them, unhappy with their sexual orientation and desiring to change it.

No but you can be sure they were laying on the Christian theology pretty heavy. Making such an appeal to someone's faith - or religious fear - certainly qualifies as coercion.

[homersapien 11,410]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

You'll have to explain what you mean here. It makes no sense to me. Are you saying that one's intelligence plays a role in determining one's sexuality? Are you comparing their "ability" to know their own sexuality to a transgender?

As for your question, I would imagine a transgender man "knows" his true sexuality the same way you or I do.

You asked how my friends knew they had no gay inborn trait or gene? They are extremely well educated and state emphatically, it was a sexual choice. Genes don't disappear right? Plus, they admittedly have no gay feelings now.

I asked how a man that feels like he has a woman inside his body knew he had said body within him? Drum roll please..........

That's not really an answer.

But it's possible it was a "true" choice for them without any predispositions. Highly unlikely, but possible.

If you don't mind, please provide your thoughts on the remainder of my post. Thanks in advance!

I don't really have any thoughts. Like I said, the issue of genes is a red herring and the last sentence is obscure.

And like I said sexual indentity resides in the brain, not the genitalia.

[Aufan59 74]

Using gender and race analogously works for this argument, so is a good comparison.

For other arguments, they are not analogous.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

You'll have to explain what you mean here. It makes no sense to me. Are you saying that one's intelligence plays a role in determining one's sexuality? Are you comparing their "ability" to know their own sexuality to a transgender?

As for your question, I would imagine a transgender man "knows" his true sexuality the same way you or I do.

You asked how my friends knew they had no gay inborn trait or gene? They are extremely well educated and state emphatically, it was a sexual choice. Genes don't disappear right? Plus, they admittedly have no gay feelings now.

I asked how a man that feels like he has a woman inside his body knew he had said body within him? Drum roll please..........

That's not really an answer.

But it's possible it was a "true" choice for them without any predispositions. Highly unlikely, but possible.

If you don't mind, please provide your thoughts on the remainder of my post. Thanks in advance!

I don't really have any thoughts. Like I said, the issue of genes is a red herring and the last sentence is obscure.

And like I said sexual indentity resides in the brain, not the genitalia.

I will try and clarify. I will assume we've all heard the statement "I felt like a woman trapped in a mans body." How did this man come to such a conclusion? Was his brain truly telling him this? Was he coerced to believe this? Was it simply his desire?

Anyone feel free to chime in.

[aubfaninga 16]

I don't really have any thoughts. Like I said, the issue of genes is a red herring and the last sentence is obscure.

And like I said sexual indentity resides in the brain, not the genitalia.

For clarity, are all these studies presented as being performed using completed surgical transsexuals?

Don't you throw rocks at me homer. Just wanting the clarification so we can discuss any chance the removal of certain glands can effect change in the limbic system. Or possibly implications of birth defects to said glands. :baseball:

[Aufan59 74]

Why does it matter if it is genetic?

Christianity is not genetic, yet government can't discriminate against you based on your belief in Jesus.

[homersapien 11,410]

While I claim no expertise on the subject, I will restate claims of two individuals i consider friends.

Male and female, both were previously admitted gay. Today they are both happily married to the opposite sex in loving relationships with children. When queried about their respective "prior gay lives" they emphatically state it was simply a sexual choice at the time. No inborn trait, no gene, but rather a simple choice.

I imagine the same could be said of Bruce Jenner.

How can they be sure of that?

Regardless, it's possible for otherwise heterosexual people to engage in consensual homosexual acts. It happens all the time in prisons (for example).

It's also possible for people to identify both - or either - way. It's called bisexuality.

I honestly don't know. I do know these two are gifted intelligent people. I'd imagine they'd know as much as a man who thinks he has a woman living inside his body. Which begs to question, how could said man be sure of that?

You'll have to explain what you mean here. It makes no sense to me. Are you saying that one's intelligence plays a role in determining one's sexuality? Are you comparing their "ability" to know their own sexuality to a transgender?

As for your question, I would imagine a transgender man "knows" his true sexuality the same way you or I do.

You asked how my friends knew they had no gay inborn trait or gene? They are extremely well educated and state emphatically, it was a sexual choice. Genes don't disappear right? Plus, they admittedly have no gay feelings now.

I asked how a man that feels like he has a woman inside his body knew he had said body within him? Drum roll please..........

That's not really an answer.

But it's possible it was a "true" choice for them without any predispositions. Highly unlikely, but possible.

If you don't mind, please provide your thoughts on the remainder of my post. Thanks in advance!

I don't really have any thoughts. Like I said, the issue of genes is a red herring and the last sentence is obscure.

And like I said sexual indentity resides in the brain, not the genitalia.

I will try and clarify. I will assume we've all heard the statement "I felt like a woman trapped in a mans body." How did this man come to such a conclusion? Was his brain truly telling him this? Was he coerced to believe this? Was it simply his desire?

Anyone feel free to chime in.

All the elements that determine sexual identity in one's mind were indicating to him that he was female, in spite of being born with male genitalia.

I don't understand what's so hard about this.

[homersapien 11,410]

I don't really have any thoughts. Like I said, the issue of genes is a red herring and the last sentence is obscure.

And like I said sexual indentity resides in the brain, not the genitalia.

For clarity, are all these studies presented as being performed using completed surgical transsexuals?

Don't you throw rocks at me homer. Just wanting the clarification so we can discuss any chance the removal of certain glands can effect change in the limbic system. Or possibly implications of birth defects to said glands. :baseball:

I don't get your point. What studies?

Anyway, I am sure that everyone has heard of the unfortunate cases of hermaphrodites being surgically altered at birth to be (anatomical) females when they later self-identified as males.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/intersex-children-pose-ethical-dilemma-doctors-parents-genital/story?id=13153068

[homersapien 11,410]

Here's a lit review on the subject. Enjoy!

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=origins+of+sexual+identity&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=xl_fVLeLK8eagwSM1oOIDg&ved=0CBsQgQMwAA