A critique of transgenderism

[homersapien 11,382]

If evolution brought us transgenderism, it definitely brought us religion.

Possibly. Most cultures have one, or something like it. I suppose the propensity to believe could be inherited. But you would need a controlled experiment accounting for culture to prove it.

If so, the natural connection of religion is much more tenuous than sexuality, which is basic to our being.

Our culture is a function of our evolved intelligence, no need to control for it.

I am not saying that the evolution of intelligence will always result In religion. But in our case it clearly did, oeriwse there wouldn't be such widespread religion.

If you wanted to prove that religion was more innate (biological) than cultural you certainly would have to control for it, if not test it directly by raising a large statistical sample of kids (or a smaller one of identical twins) in a nonreligious culture (for example).

Of course, you can't do that from an ethical or moral standpoint.

[homersapien 11,382]

Lord help us all. This world loses its mind a bit more every day.

In the interest of being fair, Facebook could easily convince us all of that, on any subject matter.

Well, Strychnine, that point is hard to argue with.... :-)

But, the fact that somebody "identifies" as some damn freak-show doesn't mean I should grant it constitutional protection. I guess gender and sexuality are just 20th century notions...can't let things like evolution or religion influence how we relate to others or how society works.

Evolution and Religion huh? That's ironic.

Like it or not, evolution is what brought us transgenders - or at least our current biology. Transgenderism exists.

Religion? Not so much a part of nature. Well, unless you consider our propensity to accept arbitrary and wishful thinking as a part of our biology. Regardless religion informs some of us to believe things like homosexuality and transgenderism simply don't exist. Or if they do, it's a result of sin.

So, if you are listing things that arbitrate against the existence of transgenderism, you are 1 for 2. I'll give you religion. Gladly.

Using that logic, pedophiles are just the result of evolution...serial killers; just a product of the inexorable march of time; Jihadi's...no different than vestigial wings on fruit flies...where exactly do you draw the line on abhorrent behavior and your view that it's just an alternative lifestyle?

First what you say in blue above is more or less correct, except that we don't really know the relative role of culture in such aberrations. (Which as 59 pointed out, is also an evolved trait.)

Regarding "abhorrent behavior", I define it as behavior that victimizes innocent people.

And I have never considered such behavior as an "alternative" life style in the sense of being acceptable. Victimizing behavior should never be acceptable regardless of it's origins.

[Aufan59 65]

That is not what I want to prove, though.

[TitanTiger 20,495]

If evolution brought us transgenderism, it definitely brought us religion.

A faith-based claim if I've ever seen one.

You aren't the first on is forum to not understand the definition of faith, and probably won't be the last.

I understand it just fine. Faith doesn't require a deity or a supernatural target. It just requires a willingness to believe in something they have no proof of and that is virtually untestable. Congrats. You're a man of faith.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I assumed he meant Christian faith. That seem logical in this thread.

[Aufan59 65]

If evolution brought us transgenderism, it definitely brought us religion.

A faith-based claim if I've ever seen one.

You aren't the first on is forum to not understand the definition of faith, and probably won't be the last.

I understand it just fine. Faith doesn't require a deity or a supernatural target. It just requires a willingness to believe in something they have no proof of and that is virtually untestable. Congrats. You're a man of faith.

Humans resulted from evolution. Religion resulted from humans. Ergo religion resulted from evolution.

Nothing to do with faith.

[TitanTiger 20,495]

If evolution brought us transgenderism, it definitely brought us religion.

A faith-based claim if I've ever seen one.

You aren't the first on is forum to not understand the definition of faith, and probably won't be the last.

I understand it just fine. Faith doesn't require a deity or a supernatural target. It just requires a willingness to believe in something they have no proof of and that is virtually untestable. Congrats. You're a man of faith.

Humans resulted from evolution. Religion resulted from humans. Ergo religion resulted from evolution.

Nothing to do with faith.

I guess it depends on your definition of "religion." If it's merely the rites and rituals and traditions that people use to express their devotion to a deity, sure. But if you're talking about the more encompassing view that most people use that incorporates not just those things but the object of worship, then yours is a position of faith.

[Aufan59 65]

It doesn't depend on the definition of religion.

However you want to define Christianity, the fact that you worship Jesus and God is a result of evolution. Same with every other religion.

[TitanTiger 20,495]

It doesn't depend on the definition of religion.

However you want to define Christianity, the fact that you worship Jesus and God is a result of evolution. Same with every other religion.

Nope. Sorry. You're back to faith based positions again.

[Aufan59 65]

It doesn't take faith to believe in evolution...

[TitanTiger 20,495]

I quite agree, as I believe in evolution also. But then, that wasn't what was being argued.

[cooltigger21 0]

As someone who has seen this phenomenon play out in people I have known, I have sympathy for the genuine psychological conflicts this brings to an individual. There is no question of a biological element to this. Some people are easily susceptible to alcohol and being alcoholic. Others don't have any trouble at all. I cannot abide with the idea of cutting off body parts and essentially mutilating people. I don't pretend to have all the answers but there is so much about the human brain that we still don't know. We are learning ways to reprogram it to a degree that help deal with a whole host of things. They need competent professional help to work out how to resolve these issues. I don't know the actual statistics but there are a large number of people that have regrets afterwards. Lots of suicide and general unhappy people. We've become way too accepting that this and other things are just natural and ok and should be accepted.

[Aufan59 65]

I quite agree, as I believe in evolution also. But then, that wasn't what was being argued.

Then explain to me what takes faith? Believing that religion came from humans?

Even if your denomination of Christianity is true, there are lots of religions other than Christianity that must then be untrue, created by humans. Thus evolution has given us religion.

[TitanTiger 20,495]

I quite agree, as I believe in evolution also. But then, that wasn't what was being argued.

Then explain to me what takes faith? Believing that religion came from humans?

Even if your denomination of Christianity is true, there are lots of religions other than Christianity that must then be untrue, created by humans. Thus evolution has given us religion.

As I said before, this turns on your definition of religion. You rejected that nuance but now seem to be relying on it. Simply put, if there is no supernatural then of course, all religion is simply made up and part of the evolutionary process. If there is a supernatural being, a Creator if you will, then while the rites, traditional and rituals may be created by humans they object of the worship they are used for is not.

But the bottom line is, to insist that all religion (you did not qualify "some" or "just the untrue ones") is simply a product of evolution is not provable and thus an article of faith.

[Aufan59 65]

Is it a religion if nobody follows it? Doesn't religion require humans, or at the very least some sort of evolved intelligence?

The reason I bring up false religions is to give us common ground. You obviously beleive here are some false religions, that there is religion that is created by humans.

Either way, religion is a function of evolution. I feel that this is another example of you being inherently disgusted by the premise, therefore you reject it.

[TitanTiger 20,495]

Is it a religion if nobody follows it? Doesn't religion require humans, or at the very least some sort of evolved intelligence?

The reason I bring up false religions is to give us common ground. You obviously beleive here are some false religions, that there is religion that is created by humans.

Either way, religion is a function of evolution. I feel that this is another example of you being inherently disgusted by the premise, therefore you reject it.

I honestly believe you get exquisite pleasure out of being obtuse.

[Aufan59 65]

Is it a religion if nobody follows it? Doesn't religion require humans, or at the very least some sort of evolved intelligence?

The reason I bring up false religions is to give us common ground. You obviously beleive here are some false religions, that there is religion that is created by humans.

Either way, religion is a function of evolution. I feel that this is another example of you being inherently disgusted by the premise, therefore you reject it.

I honestly believe you get exquisite pleasure out of being obtuse.

You call me obtuse when we disagree and you have no valid point to counter.

I assume that concludes this discussion.

[TitanTiger 20,495]

I call you obtuse because you are.

The thing is, we don't really disagree in any important sense. You just enjoy picking at nits for some reason to make it sound that way. We both agree that if there is no supernatural, then all religions are obviously made up and a byproduct of our evolutionary history. We also both agree that the false religions, to whatever degree they diverge from truth regarding the supernatural, have made some things up and those things to varying degrees, would be a byproduct of evolution (except those parts which are borrowed from the "true religion.")

The only part where I guess we would disagree would be on the subject of a true religion. I mean, if all you're requiring to grant evolution credit for religion is that is requires humans, I suppose that ends the discussion. I don't think that formulation necessarily follows though. For religion, which is the systematizing of worship and honor of God, would most likely spring from God himself, not humans. He would merely impart what He expects and they would listen and carry it out. So in that sense, religion wouldn't be a "function" of evolution, would it? It wouldn't be beyond the abilities of God to have created the world in a different fashion that did not employ evolution at all and still have religion. For all we know, such a God could have done just that in some other galaxy, on some other planet on the other side of the universe.

We could go on and on about this, mix in a little diddling about wondering how many angels can fit on the head of a pin and that sort of stuff, but I'm not sure what the point is. While I can see that aspects of the rites, rituals and traditions of a true religion (I'll stick with Christianity just to keep things familiar and easy to explain)...things we've added in to religion that God did not say one way or the other one...would have been influenced by our evolutionary history and development. But I don't know that it follows that one can flatly declare that "evolution brought us religion." That is an untestable assertion. The most one could say, if there is a true religion, is that evolution brought us humans. Humans merely discovered religion or were handed it through divine revelation. At least those are two real possibilities which still negates your assertion.

Now I think I'm done. Because while the mental exercise is interesting for a while, it ultimately feels like a pointless discussion. Obtuse even.

[Aufan59 65]

We both agree evolution gave us human intelligence, and human intelligence allows for religion. A simple deduction is that evolution allowed for religion. Nothing too much to analyze with that statement.

I think you interpreted that as evolution is required for religion, as evidence by your unrelated tangent about God in some other galaxy. I assure you I was only commenting on our current situation, which is why I used the pronoun us. God can create whatever he wants, obviously.

I'm glad it was entertaining. Must be nice to nitpick a simple statement to death, call the other person obtuse and then retire when you are bored. I've learned my lesson.

[TitanTiger 20,495]