The Republican 'Freedom Caucus' Is Un-American

[icanthearyou 4,463]

That is utterly ridiculous. If there is truly no compromise, are you prepared to fight, kill, or be killed for that cause? Perhaps you should employ a little more rationale before making such an argument or, thinly veiling the accusation of hypocrisy.

There are some things I would die for. There are other things that may not rise to that level (and I'd never be asked to), but I would not compromise on it, even under threat of jail, financial ruin, loss of reputation, social rejection, etc.

And I'm not accusing you of anything other than not digging deep enough into your core principles. Because I believe there are some things that you would find you could not compromise on and you would probably even be willing to fight or die for.

Let's not forget we are talking about imposing one of those principles on others who may think differently from you.

Pedophiles feel different from me. I'm going to continue working to impose my moral views on them in our laws.

Not even in the realm of public or political debate. When you have to move to the extreme fringe to find an argument, it should tell you something.

No, it's was an extreme example to give us a starting point. So there are some things on which you would not compromise. Now that we have that established, it's just a matter of where the line is for you.

No, it is absurd. Molesting anyone against their will is illegal. Has age of consent been compromised? How about the age one can legally marry with the permission of parents?

As for the issue of abortion, and again, the late-term abortion ban vote was very close, compromise would likely be MORE effective. Some Republicans and some Democrats voted against the bill because of uncompromising restrictions or conditions related to rape, incest, the welfare of the mother. The all or nothing, uncompromising approach is NOT saving any lives. It begs the question, why, why not compromise? If you are going to fight this battle purely politically, you should be aware that the more you refuse to compromise, the greater the resistance you will encounter.

[TitanTiger 20,483]

No, it is absurd. Molesting anyone against their will is illegal. Has age of consent been compromised? How about the age one can legally marry with the permission of parents?

As for the issue of abortion, and again, the late-term abortion ban vote was very close, compromise would likely be MORE effective. Some Republicans and some Democrats voted against the bill because of uncompromising restrictions or conditions related to rape, incest, the welfare of the mother. The all or nothing, uncompromising approach is NOT saving any lives. It begs the question, why, why not compromise? If you are going to fight this battle purely politically, you should be aware that the more you refuse to compromise, the greater the resistance you will encounter.

I think you are badly misreading this conversation. For one, I never once brought up abortion. I simply said that there are some things that there are some issues that are clearly issues or right and wrong but that there were a lot of others, especially in the economic realm where I have a more pragmatic view. I steadfastly believe that. I also believe that I am not alone in that and that tons of people, on both sides of the aisle, and including you and homer, have a similar breakdown in your beliefs. There are some things you would not budge on no matter what became popular, some things that you'd accept some compromises while still working toward getting what you truly believe to be right, and then most other things you'd be rather flexible on.

[homersapien 11,379]

That is utterly ridiculous. If there is truly no compromise, are you prepared to fight, kill, or be killed for that cause? Perhaps you should employ a little more rationale before making such an argument or, thinly veiling the accusation of hypocrisy.

There are some things I would die for. There are other things that may not rise to that level (and I'd never be asked to), but I would not compromise on it, even under threat of jail, financial ruin, loss of reputation, social rejection, etc.

And I'm not accusing you of anything other than not digging deep enough into your core principles. Because I believe there are some things that you would find you could not compromise on and you would probably even be willing to fight or die for.

Let's not forget we are talking about imposing one of those principles on others who may think differently from you.

Pedophiles feel different from me. I'm going to continue working to impose my moral views on them in our laws.

Specious comparison. Abortion is legal.

Not at all. Molesting children is illegal because enough people believe it to be morally wrong and in most cases it causes lasting emotional and psychological damage. We as a society agreed and made laws that deem acting on pedophilia illegal and we impose that on those who feel differently about the matter.

Correct.

Nevertheless abortion is still legal and the majority of people still support a woman's right to get an abortion.

I don't have any problem with a minority group pushing legislation but I do have a problem when they try to extort their way in a manner that subverts our democracy.

[TitanTiger 20,483]

Correct.

Nevertheless abortion is still legal and the majority of people still support a woman's right to get an abortion.

I don't have any problem with a minority group pushing legislation but I do have a problem when they try to extort their way in a manner that subverts our democracy.

So then we agree. You aren't actually against imposing your morality on others who may think differently from you, when you believe you're right. And I suspect this would not change if for some reason a slim majority flipped to the other opinion on the matter.

[homersapien 11,379]

Correct.

Nevertheless abortion is still legal and the majority of people still support a woman's right to get an abortion.

I don't have any problem with a minority group pushing legislation but I do have a problem when they try to extort their way in a manner that subverts our democracy.

So then we agree. You aren't actually against imposing your morality on others who may think differently from you, when you believe you're right. And I suspect this would not change if for some reason a slim majority flipped to the other opinion on the matter.

Come again.

Start with the part about my being willing to impose my morality on someone else.

[TitanTiger 20,483]

Correct.

Nevertheless abortion is still legal and the majority of people still support a woman's right to get an abortion.

I don't have any problem with a minority group pushing legislation but I do have a problem when they try to extort their way in a manner that subverts our democracy.

So then we agree. You aren't actually against imposing your morality on others who may think differently from you, when you believe you're right. And I suspect this would not change if for some reason a slim majority flipped to the other opinion on the matter.

Come again.

Start with the part about my being willing to impose my morality on someone else.

You believe it is immoral and harmful for an adult to molest a child. There are people in this country that feel differently...that age of consent laws shouldn't exist or should be lowered. That there can be "loving" sexual contact between adults and children (sorry, I know it's disgusting to even read that, bear with me). But you, me and most others disagree and we impose our morality on them via the law. We have made such actions illegal and punishable with prison and other legal penalties. You have no problem with this, nor should you.

[cooltigger21 0]

Funny how it's always the Republicans who are being partisan and all this other garbage. The democrats have blocked a bill to increase funding for the VA, demanding that Republicans increase spending across the board. They want the sequester cuts, which amount to a finger prick, done away with.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Funny how it's always the Republicans who are being partisan and all this other garbage. The democrats have blocked a bill to increase funding for the VA, demanding that Republicans increase spending across the board. They want the sequester cuts, which amount to a finger prick, done away with.

Obama comes right out and SAYS that he wants to make the Oregon mass shootings a POLITICAL issue. Either he's truly this naive, or he thinks we are, but making political hay out of an issue or event means to demagogue it and use it for political gain, with out really having any interest in truly solving the problem.

Obama does not want to solve problems. The Democrats, by in large do not WANT to " fix " anything. They simply want folks screaming and shouting and protesting so much that enough of them get mobilized to go out and vote. It's about community agitating, and keeping one party in power.

NOTHING MORE.

[homersapien 11,379]

Funny how it's always the Republicans who are being partisan and all this other garbage. The democrats have blocked a bill to increase funding for the VA, demanding that Republicans increase spending across the board. They want the sequester cuts, which amount to a finger prick, done away with.

Obama comes right out and SAYS that he wants to make the Oregon mass shootings a POLITICAL issue. Either he's truly this naive, or he thinks we are, but making political hay out of an issue or event means to demagogue it and use it for political gain, with out really having any interest in truly solving the problem.

Obama does not want to solve problems. The Democrats, by in large do not WANT to " fix " anything. They simply want folks screaming and shouting and protesting so much that enough of them get mobilized to go out and vote. It's about community agitating, and keeping one party in power.

NOTHING MORE.

Regardless of how you feel about the cause, rallying the populous around a political goal is the POTUS's job. It's called leadership.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Regardless of how you feel about the cause, rallying the populous around a political goal is the POTUS's job. It's called leadership.

Troll. You know that's the biggest load of horse s*** EVER. What Obama is doing is the exact OPPOSITE of leadership. He's saying remember which politicians want to protect you, which want to ignore the problem, and then go vote. Who in the hell is he trying to bring together ? Only thing he's doing is DIVIDING this country. He has no interest in trying to work with the other side or anyone outside of his political sphere to come to a solution !

This is how the Left work ! They don't want solutions, they just want POWER . Remember when Hillary told the BLM people that she had no interest in working on solutions, or change people's hearts, what really needed to happen was more laws ought to be passed.

More FEDERAL LAWS. Do you not get it ? She's a totalitarian ! Same as Obama ! Hell, even same as George and Jeb Bush, to a lesser degree.

[cooltigger21 0]

When has Obama ever compromised or any of the Democrats for that matter. Barry has bypassed Congress with illegal Executive Orders and acted like a little kid with temper tantrums when they won't bend to his will.

[homersapien 11,379]

Correct.

Nevertheless abortion is still legal and the majority of people still support a woman's right to get an abortion.

I don't have any problem with a minority group pushing legislation but I do have a problem when they try to extort their way in a manner that subverts our democracy.

So then we agree. You aren't actually against imposing your morality on others who may think differently from you, when you believe you're right. And I suspect this would not change if for some reason a slim majority flipped to the other opinion on the matter.

Not sure where you get that. I certainly don't oppose imposing the law on anyone committing a crime as determined by our code of laws. And it's all the better if I agree with the morality aspect of the crime.

But I don't think that constitutes my imposing my morality on someone per se', that is, a morality that is not also backed by the force of law.

[homersapien 11,379]

When has Obama ever compromised or any of the Democrats for that matter. Barry has bypassed Congress with illegal Executive Orders and acted like a little kid with temper tantrums when they won't bend to his will.

Executive orders are not illegal. All presidents use them. Obama hasn't used as much as many (including Bush W. and Reagan).

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120346/obamas-vetoes-executive-orders-compared-bush-clinton-reagan

[AURaptor 1,125]

When has Obama ever compromised or any of the Democrats for that matter. Barry has bypassed Congress with illegal Executive Orders and acted like a little kid with temper tantrums when they won't bend to his will.

Executive orders are not illegal. All presidents use them. Obama hasn't used as much as many (including Bush W. and Reagan).

http://www.newrepubl...-clinton-reagan

The numbers issue is yet another straw man argument by the Left. It's not the number that's the issue. It's HOW Obama has used the E.O. And yes, they can be illegal, depending on how they are used.

Obama has exceeded his powers, but the gutless GOP Congress is too scared to do a damn thing about it. Best if we ride it out, not make a fuss, and things will eventually, magically work themselves out in the end.

Typical D.C. bull****.

[cooltigger21 0]

When has Obama ever compromised or any of the Democrats for that matter. Barry has bypassed Congress with illegal Executive Orders and acted like a little kid with temper tantrums when they won't bend to his will.

Executive orders are not illegal. All presidents use them. Obama hasn't used as much as many (including Bush W. and Reagan).

http://www.newrepubl...-clinton-reagan

The numbers issue is yet another straw man argument by the Left. It's not the number that's the issue. It's HOW Obama has used the E.O. And yes, they can be illegal, depending on how they are used.

Obama has exceeded his powers, but the gutless GOP Congress is too scared to do a damn thing about it. Best if we ride it out, not make a fuss, and things will eventually, magically work themselves out in the end.

Typical D.C. bull****.

His order to issue work permits to illegal aliens is a shining example of exceeding his authority. Even after the court told him to stop, they kept right on anyway.

[AUFAN78 3,910]

Being so partisan, that you no longer respect democracy, is un-American.

Itch, you speaking bad of our POTUS again?

[AUFAN78 3,910]

Being so partisan, that you no longer respect democracy, is un-American.

Truly! That's why I support Kasich....but I like to call out partisanship when I see it....which is about 98% of this forum. Democrats and Republicans deserve a gut punch for what they have done to this country over the last half century.

But I cannot criticize my own party. I want us to win. History proves we have never been wrong. History proves how evil those other people are. The only reason for the problems in this country are the___politicians___s.

I MUST be blindly and unconditionally loyal to my party. I will NOT support my country and democracy unless, my country supports only the policies of my party.

Why can't everyone see the perfection of my party, my ideology?

How can people not see how evil those other people are?

Why doesn't everyone live in my echo chamber and, think just like me?

Dialogue and compromise are dumb. Partisanship is more important than honesty and integrity. Thank God, we never lie. Thank God my side is righteous and virtuous.

We must suspend democracy in order to save our country from the __politicians__s. They will surely destroy us. They are our enemy.

Hmmm. Thanks Itch. Now we know why Trump is leading the polls.

[AUFAN78 3,910]

Why can we not simply embrace compromise, mutual respect, the love of democracy, and thinking for ourselves? Why can we not be more American than partisan?

How did we get to the point that we are no longer willing to recognize the imperfections of our own party/ideology and, come to believe in the pure evil of the political opposition? Does anyone own a history book? Anyone?

The magnitude of the arrogance and ignorance is simply to great to even contemplate.

Please, return to your respective echo chambers so that you may resume your education indoctrination.

ITCY, the above are questions I ask myself EVERYDAY. I've worked in politics for a long time and can tell you that I have never seen this many people so unwilling to compromise on anything for the good of our country. Right now, it is mostly the far right doing it, but I suspect that the left will have their turn at discontent... in other words, I predict it gets way worse before it gets better.

When I worked in the Senate, I worked for Members who believed very passionately that they were elected to get things done for the good of the country. Of course they had some principles they were unwilling to negotiate, but they were very few and far between and honestly, they were issues that so rarely came up that it didn't matter. Members on both sides of the aisle enjoyed getting to know one another and were even close friends (example: Ted Kennedy and Orrin Hatch). Heck, one of my former bosses made the news because he was willing to help fundraise for his best friend who happened to be on the other side of the aisle.

This forum is only a microcosm of the voters at large, but unfortunately, so many refuse to read and educate themselves on the issues themselves. I think there are some that enjoy being angry all the time. Everything is a principled issue on which there is absolutely no room for negotiation. Let's just say, folks like that really need to look in the mirror. The world isn't perfect. Those on the other side might, just might have some good ideas on which to build upon. Unfortunately, rational political discussion is hard to come by anymore. There are a few Members of Congress who I think are still trying to have rational discussions, but I fear that many of them are just tired. I expect more retirements of some of these to be announced... we will soon only be left with those who want to continue to promote anger and profit from it.

"I have never seen this many people so unwilling to compromise on anything for the good of our country. Right now, it is mostly the far right doing it, ........."

Nothing partisan in those statements? Do you really ask the right questions everyday? Do you recognize the imperfections of your own party/ideology?

Maybe it is time for Chapter Two Itch?

[cooltigger21 0]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

[TitanTiger 20,483]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

I don't understand this criticism. I see Republicans trying to oppose Democrats and Obama all the time. The problem is, while they have a majority, they don't have a veto proof or filibuster proof majority. If the Dems or the President want something a certain way bad enough, all the opposition in the world won't overcome that. It's like pissing into the wind. It seems to me like Republican voters have an unrealistic understanding of what is possible with the votes they have.

[Grumps 3,704]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

I don't understand this criticism. I see Republicans trying to oppose Democrats and Obama all the time. The problem is, while they have a majority, they don't have a veto proof or filibuster proof majority. If the Dems or the President want something a certain way bad enough, all the opposition in the world won't overcome that. It's like pissing into the wind. It seems to me like Republican voters have an unrealistic understanding of what is possible with the votes they have.

Why don't the republicans work to pass every good bill they can come up with and let the democrats filibuster or let the president veto them. At least then there would be an obvious reason for the stupidity. The republican mentality seems to be "we don't have the votes to do anything, so we won't". They are not trying. They just want to be able to act like they have an excuse. Meanwhile, the government gets bigger and bigger--just like both sides want.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

I don't understand this criticism. I see Republicans trying to oppose Democrats and Obama all the time. The problem is, while they have a majority, they don't have a veto proof or filibuster proof majority. If the Dems or the President want something a certain way bad enough, all the opposition in the world won't overcome that. It's like pissing into the wind. It seems to me like Republican voters have an unrealistic understanding of what is possible with the votes they have.

Exactly! The idea that there is a lack of will ("backbone", "belly fire") to oppose is ridiculous. Perhaps the problem is that, the courage and willingness to compromise is lacking, from both sides.

What appears to be clear to me is, politics is a greater concern than governing for the politicians and that, the rhetoric is more entertaining than the details, and consequences, of policy to the populous.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

I don't understand this criticism. I see Republicans trying to oppose Democrats and Obama all the time. The problem is, while they have a majority, they don't have a veto proof or filibuster proof majority. If the Dems or the President want something a certain way bad enough, all the opposition in the world won't overcome that. It's like pissing into the wind. It seems to me like Republican voters have an unrealistic understanding of what is possible with the votes they have.

Why don't the republicans work to pass every good bill they can come up with and let the democrats filibuster or let the president veto them. At least then there would be an obvious reason for the stupidity. The republican mentality seems to be "we don't have the votes to do anything, so we won't". They are not trying. They just want to be able to act like they have an excuse. Meanwhile, the government gets bigger and bigger--just like both sides want.

Yes. Who does that benefit? Is that made possible by the ideological/partisan divide?

[Grumps 3,704]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

I don't understand this criticism. I see Republicans trying to oppose Democrats and Obama all the time. The problem is, while they have a majority, they don't have a veto proof or filibuster proof majority. If the Dems or the President want something a certain way bad enough, all the opposition in the world won't overcome that. It's like pissing into the wind. It seems to me like Republican voters have an unrealistic understanding of what is possible with the votes they have.

Why don't the republicans work to pass every good bill they can come up with and let the democrats filibuster or let the president veto them. At least then there would be an obvious reason for the stupidity. The republican mentality seems to be "we don't have the votes to do anything, so we won't". They are not trying. They just want to be able to act like they have an excuse. Meanwhile, the government gets bigger and bigger--just like both sides want.

Yes. Who does that benefit? Is that made possible by the ideological/partisan divide?

Obviously, it benefits those governing at the expense of those being governed. Clearly, the perceived (and likely manufactured) ideological and partisan divide makes it easier for the governors to increase their power and wealth. Is that what you are looking for?

[TitanTiger 20,483]

This is a new phenomenon. We're used to seeing the Republicans just go along with the Democrats on everything. Remember Bob Michael who looked in the mirror and saw a loser. Now we're seeing dome Republicans stand up and show a backbone. The left doesn't know how to handle these guys so they lash out and try to browbeat them back into being subservient.

I don't understand this criticism. I see Republicans trying to oppose Democrats and Obama all the time. The problem is, while they have a majority, they don't have a veto proof or filibuster proof majority. If the Dems or the President want something a certain way bad enough, all the opposition in the world won't overcome that. It's like pissing into the wind. It seems to me like Republican voters have an unrealistic understanding of what is possible with the votes they have.

Why don't the republicans work to pass every good bill they can come up with and let the democrats filibuster or let the president veto them. At least then there would be an obvious reason for the stupidity. The republican mentality seems to be "we don't have the votes to do anything, so we won't". They are not trying. They just want to be able to act like they have an excuse. Meanwhile, the government gets bigger and bigger--just like both sides want.

In other words, bring government to a grinding halt to try and prove a point and hope the voters applaud the effort? Screw compromise, just beat your head into a wall you know won't go down just so you hope folks will blame the Dems and Obama for not signing off on it?