Malzahn vs. Saban

[Rednilla 5,391]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

So, why are we comparing our coach to this? Isn't that an unfair comparison. For example, if you have a child who is a b student, why would you compare him to a child who is an A student but has unfair advantages in achieving that A. Why would you not just compare him to another A student from the same cloth as your child? Makes zero sense to me.

Because it took Saban time to become the coach he is now, and comparing his first five years of head coaching isn't so unfair from Gus's first five years. Malzahn is also 14 years younger than Saban, so it's not like he doesn't have time to achieve sustained success in a similar time period to Shorty.

[AU64 10,122]

8 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

I'll admit that I liked that hire of Malzahn, and his history here before becoming a head coach was a major part of that. And, again, I do think he should be given at least one more year to right the ship and get us on the right track. But having to suffer through mediocre seasons for four years (if next year isn't any better) is plenty long enough to let him train on the job at a traditional SEC power like Auburn.

Also, Orgeron was a head coach, albeit not very successfully, before, and has had time coaching under other HCs to have learned from his mistakes, so putting him in the same class is unfair.

Was thinking to put Orgeron in the same class with Kiffen who may or may not have figured out his mistakes....but I thought that might be unfair.     

Actually I'm not sure how much working as a coordinator under good HCs translates into making a guy a good HC.  Probably can't hurt...but Chiz worked under some good HCs as did Muschamp for example. too early to tell about Smart of course.     I'm afraid that Gus might fall into that category but IMO it's still to early to tell....but no doubt time is running out.  And if that's the case, he and AU will both end up being the losers. JMO  A new coach is almost always a step backward for a few years.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

7 hours ago, bigbird said:

Better than anyone ever...in the complete history of the game. No one has ever recruited like Bama has the last 10 years...EVER!

Agreed. And when you do this with 120 other teams out there you can bet they are cheating the system. WDE

[Gowebb11 9,339]

A lot of Auburn fans are tired of mediocrity, think we pay our coach too much for it, and believe we are too prominent of a program to accept it. The problem is, there are two or three dozen other programs thinking the same thing. At the end of this season, every SEC West team (minus Bama), plus Tennessee, Missouri, and UGA, had a large number of their fan base wanting to fire their coach. The challenge is, there are more teams thinking that way than there are coaches who are sure bets to do better. 

[Rednilla 5,391]

24 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Was thinking to put Orgeron in the same class with Kiffen who may or may not have figured out his mistakes....but I thought that might be unfair.     

Actually I'm not sure how much working as a coordinator under good HCs translates into making a guy a good HC.  Probably can't hurt...but Chiz worked under some good HCs as did Muschamp for example. too early to tell about Smart of course.     I'm afraid that Gus might fall into that category but IMO it's still to early to tell....but no doubt time is running out.  And if that's the case, he and AU will both end up being the losers. JMO  A new coach is almost always a step backward for a few years.

I think it helps more for coaches who have been HC before, because they can compare and contrast their own experience with how their new boss goes about things, while coaches who have only been coordinators likely don't know what to look for in their HC to find out why everything works for him.

And a new head coach has not been a step backwards for Auburn the last five times we've hired someone at the position. Dye was 9-3 his second year, and should have won the national title in his third. Bowden started his coaching stint with 20 consecutive wins. Tuberville went to the SEC Championship in his second year. Chizik won it all in his second year. And Malzahn took us to the BCS NC game in his first season before regressing the last three years. That isn't to say our next head coach will have a short turnaround to doing better than what we had before, but it is to say that with the talent we have had for the last three and a half decades, a new start can make a world of difference.

[AU64 10,122]

11 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

I think it helps more for coaches who have been HC before, because they can compare and contrast their own experience with how their new boss goes about things, while coaches who have only been coordinators likely don't know what to look for in their HC to find out why everything works for him.

And a new head coach has not been a step backwards for Auburn the last five times we've hired someone at the position. Dye was 9-3 his second year, and should have won the national title in his third. Bowden started his coaching stint with 20 consecutive wins. Tuberville went to the SEC Championship in his second year. Chizik won it all in his second year. And Malzahn took us to the BCS NC game in his first season before regressing the last three years. That isn't to say our next head coach will have a short turnaround to doing better than what we had before, but it is to say that with the talent we have had for the last three and a half decades, a new start can make a world of difference.

OK..Dye was 30 years ago and things were much different then.    As for TB and GC neither was here for very long ...kind of Roman Candle careers.....quickly burned bright....and then fizzled....and Gus is looking a lot the same. ...just hope that he is able to level things out and can meet expectations of the PTBs. 

[Rednilla 5,391]

1 minute ago, AU64 said:

OK..Dye was 30 years ago and things were much different then.    As for TB and GC neither was here for very long ...kind of Roman Candle careers.....quickly burned bright....and then fizzled....and Gus is looking a lot the same. ...just hope that he is able to level things out and can meet expectations of the PTBs. 

Well, a point in Malzahn's favor is that he does compare favorably to Tuberville, who was mediocre for three years before turning things around. I don't necessarily think he has to go undefeated to be in the same conversation as Tubs, but he does have to win 9 games in the regular season, bare minimum, and have a shot at getting to 10 with a bowl win. If we can continue trending up after the debacle of 2015, I'd say we're okay, but not doing so won't be acceptable much longer.

[aubaseball 2,629]

I think that comparing auburn to Alabama is not realistic.  Auburn compares more to Georgia than Alabama.  As much as everyone doesn't want to say it or believe it, Alabama is one of the top five schools in the country.   When these five schools have good coaches they are hard to beat: Ohio state, Michigan, USC, Texas and Alabama.  

[johnnyAU 3,634]

28 minutes ago, aubaseball said:

I think that comparing auburn to Alabama is not realistic.  Auburn compares more to Georgia than Alabama.  As much as everyone doesn't want to say it or believe it, Alabama is one of the top five schools in the country.   When these five schools have good coaches they are hard to beat: Ohio state, Michigan, USC, Texas and Alabama.  

No, not top 5 schools. Top 5 recruiting powerhouses. 

[WeagleAU 594]

32 minutes ago, aubaseball said:

I think that comparing auburn to Alabama is not realistic.  Auburn compares more to Georgia than Alabama.  As much as everyone doesn't want to say it or believe it, Alabama is one of the top five schools in the country.   When these five schools have good coaches they are hard to beat: Ohio state, Michigan, USC, Texas and Alabama.  

Also important to note, the 5 teams you mentioned have the political power and money to focus primarily on football and recruiting (as mentioned above it is all about recruiting).  The good ole boy network makes sure the talent finds bammer irresistible.

Do people really believe Saban is the greatest coach ever?  Do they think Saban ("the greatest coach ever") could have the same success at Miss State, Arkansas, Vanderbilt, Louisville, West Virginia, North Carolina, Washington, Kansas State, etc, etc, etc...

It is not so much about Saban as it is about Saban+bammer.  It's been said here before, bammer has giving him free reign, he has the head of the SEC officiating in his back pocket, and he is best friends with the head of the NCAA who gives him what he wants.  The mans got it made.  He's a great coach under the current circumstances provided for him.

 

[DAG 33,997]

1 hour ago, WeagleAU said:

Also important to note, the 5 teams you mentioned have the political power and money to focus primarily on football and recruiting (as mentioned above it is all about recruiting).  The good ole boy network makes sure the talent finds bammer irresistible.

Do people really believe Saban is the greatest coach ever?  Do they think Saban ("the greatest coach ever") could have the same success at Miss State, Arkansas, Vanderbilt, Louisville, West Virginia, North Carolina, Washington, Kansas State, etc, etc, etc...

It is not so much about Saban as it is about Saban+bammer.  It's been said here before, bammer has giving him free reign, he has the head of the SEC officiating in his back pocket, and he is best friends with the head of the NCAA who gives him what he wants.  The mans got it made.  He's a great coach under the current circumstances provided for him.

 

Greatest of all time? I don't know . Greatest of my generation? Yes. He is on a precident run.  Won a NC at two different schools and has maintained continuous success. I don't care how much leeway you think he has that is hard to do. I also think coaches like him and UM could very well have success at those schools you name.  I can almost guarantee they would leave those programs with more success than what they previous had prior to their arrival. Also what are you basing success on? Success to Arkansas could be winning their first ever SEC championship or vandy winning the SEC east/ playing on a new years day bowl, etc. 

[DAG 33,997]

1 hour ago, WeagleAU said:

Also important to note, the 5 teams you mentioned have the political power and money to focus primarily on football and recruiting (as mentioned above it is all about recruiting).  The good ole boy network makes sure the talent finds bammer irresistible.

Do people really believe Saban is the greatest coach ever?  Do they think Saban ("the greatest coach ever") could have the same success at Miss State, Arkansas, Vanderbilt, Louisville, West Virginia, North Carolina, Washington, Kansas State, etc, etc, etc...

It is not so much about Saban as it is about Saban+bammer.  It's been said here before, bammer has giving him free reign, he has the head of the SEC officiating in his back pocket, and he is best friends with the head of the NCAA who gives him what he wants.  The mans got it made.  He's a great coach under the current circumstances provided for him.

 

Mafter of fact name some better coaches right now ? And why ?

[metafour 4,969]

4 hours ago, Eagle Eye 7 said:

Agreed. And when you do this with 120 other teams out there you can bet they are cheating the system. WDE

You people talk as if they are blowing everyone else out in recruiting when the reality is that the battle for the #1 spot is incredibly close in most years, so while they continually land "#1 classes", its not like there aren't always the usual suspects right up there with them.  The difference has been the sustained consistency of Saban's program whereas those other schools have down years (or periods of down years) which bring their recruiting down.  Look at this year and notice that Ohio State actually has two more 5-stars committed and a stronger average rating (as does Georgia)...Alabama only sits "#1" because their class if almost full whereas OSU has 8 fewer commitments.

[keesler 5,924]

14 hours ago, Rednilla said:

Honestly, Saban is not a great coach. He's a good coach and a great recruiter at a place where he can get away with that combination quite easily. All he has to do is supplement the REC with his natural ability to recruit and hire good assistants to make his life pretty easy.

I agree with WDE that Auburn should never be the training ground for a head coach, but with things as they are, I still think we (the fans) should give him at least another year before throwing in the towel, particularly if he replaces Lashlee with someone who can develop a solid passing game, like Kendal Briles. In any case, however, he's going to be here for another season, and no amount of crowing from the fan base will change that.

I do, however, believe the comparison of Saban's first few years with Malzahn's first few years is legitimate, and if we wait it out, I think Gus will make us all happy that we did.

I haven't been on this board much lately.....What's the chance of Gus making a change at OC?

In the wake of the IB and getting the invite to the Sugar, it seems like folks on here haven't pushed the Rhett replacement agenda as much as they were after the UGA flop and the UAT loss.

[FoundationEagle 637]

On December 19, 2016 at 4:09 PM, 2010primetime said:

Funny how other coaches are using Gus plays but he is Garbage lol! Yes he does some dummy reactions. But theirs not 1 school in the last 6 years outside of Bama that has been more reliavent than AUBURN. WDE!

(1) there's, not theirs

(2) relevant, not reliavent

(3) Clemson, FSU, Ohio St.  All have been relevant the whole time, we were only relevant for the first 3 of those 6  and completely irrelevant since

(4) If we just take the last 3 years, there's probably about 20-30 schools more relevant

(5) Which of "Gus's plays" are other coaches using and where is the indication that they are his plays and not plays widely known by others without Gus's input?

(6) If he is such the genius that all the other coaches are stealing his plays, why can't he come up with plays that work with different personnel groupings?  Every year he seems to be able to run successfully about 5-7 plays with small wrinkles thrown in.  We usually have success when we can force our will on teams without having to adjust. When we can't do that, we typically crumble  

(7) He didn't invent the Wing T, he didn't invent the end around, he didn't invent the HUNH (though he may have invented the hurry up no huddle change the play three times and barely get the snap off), he didn't invent the read option (which is pretty much most of the plays that got him to the NC twice), he didn't invent the wheel route, he didn't invent the swing pass, he didn't invent the HB dive or ISO and he didn't invent the very basic slant route or hot route. There's pretty much his entire playbook.  

 

Heck, the only play I think we can truly give him credit for may be one of the worst plays in history...the TE WHIRLYBIRD! (He supposedly has a very thick playbook of drawn up plays...I suspect if the TE Whirlybird is any indication, we will never see them in live action)

[lionheartkc 6,150]

12 hours ago, AU64 said:

Actually I'm not sure how much working as a coordinator under good HCs translates into making a guy a good HC. 

It's all a matter of how much one chooses to learn, and how much the HC is willing to share.  It's like an apprenticeship of sorts, if the two parties are willing to make it that way. I think the most common problem seen in the transition is that a lot of the newer HCs refuse to give up elements of their coordinator position and that causes parts of the HC duties to suffer. Truth be told, HC at the college level is a lot of organization and oversight and not so much being in the trenches. 

[FoundationEagle 637]

6 minutes ago, keesler said:

I haven't been on this board much lately.....What's the chance of Gus making a change at OC?

In the wake of the IB and getting the invite to the Sugar, it seems like folks on here haven't pushed the Rhett replacement agenda as much as they were after the UGA flop and the UAT loss.

Highly unlikely I believe as Rhett seems to have been a major reason for Stidham coming on board. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

9 minutes ago, keesler said:

In the wake of the IB and getting the invite to the Sugar, it seems like folks on here haven't pushed the Rhett replacement agenda as much as they were after the UGA flop and the UAT loss.

I think the drop-off in the Rhett replacement talk is less because of people letting Gus off for landing the Sugar Bowl and more because Rhett's opportunities seem to have passed him by and Stidham (who very much likes him) should cover some inadequacies, so we are resigned to another year...

IF more smaller school HC jobs arise, I expect the replace Rhett conversation to crank back up, since Stidham is already on board.

[AUsince72 11,084]

For what it's worth (my opinion and $12 will get you a large coffee and kicked out the door at Starbuck's) the cheating goes beyond recruiting.  It continues in various ways at bammer.  I know some things over the years could be proven simply with google searches (until accounts are deleted, etc) and some things are just one man's opinion after the "eye test" but it strikes me as odd that many bammer players off to the the NFL seem to get smaller, slower & devolve.  Wink Wink Nudge Nudge....

Nobody ever questions that their RB's look like fast offensive linemen and their DT's could compete at WR?  Most teams have a freak of nature or two but bammer is always LOADED with them?  If it truly were all about the Jimmys and the Joes, as some like to say, Saban would be undefeated the last whatever years.  The fact he's not shows he ain't the best coach out there.

Wonder how he would have done at Navy compared to Niumatalolo these last few years?

[lionheartkc 6,150]

4 minutes ago, FoundationEagle said:

Which of "Gus's plays" are other coaches using and where is the indication that they are his plays and not plays widely known by others without Gus's input?

While I get your point, both in College and the NFL, over the past 3+ year, there have been numerous commentaries from announcers saying that a play was "straight out of the Auburn/Gus Malzahn playbook".  I know ripping on him for being labeled an offensive genius is the in thing right now, but he has done more than most coaches to revolutionize parts of the offensive game.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

it strikes me as odd that many bammer players off to the the NFL seem to get smaller, slower & devolve.  Wink Wink Nudge Nudge....

Deer Antler Spray

[AUsince72 11,084]

Just now, lionheartkc said:

Deer Antler Spray

I hear that in west Vance they feed 'em that stuff in brownies... 

[keesler 5,924]

10 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

Nobody ever questions that their RB's look like fast offensive linemen and their DT's could compete at WR?  Most teams have a freak of nature or two but bammer is always LOADED with them?  If it truly were all about the Jimmys and the Joes, as some like to say, Saban would be undefeated the last whatever years.  The fact he's not shows he ain't the best coach out there.

Wonder how he would have done at Navy compared to Niumatalolo these last few years?

Right now TODAY, who is the best college coach out there?

[FoundationEagle 637]

17 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

While I get your point, both in College and the NFL, over the past 3+ year, there have been numerous commentaries from announcers saying that a play was "straight out of the Auburn/Gus Malzahn playbook".  I know ripping on him for being labeled an offensive genius is the in thing right now, but he has done more than most coaches to revolutionize parts of the offensive game.

"Out of his playbook" simply means a play Auburn uses. Are these plays he designed himself and no one before ever ran them?  His offense got completely shut down by a guy who literally admitted he read a book on how to defend the Wing T to get his plan to stop Auburn.  That's revolutionary stuff lol. 

 

Correction:. he GOOGLED it!

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/9/5/12804152/brett-venables-clemson-auburn-wing-t-gus-malzahn

[AUsince72 11,084]

Just now, keesler said:

Right now TODAY, who is the best college coach out there?

Don't make me spell the Navy coach's name again. Heck, maybe today, even the Army coach...  These guys play with who the government gives them (no real recruiting to speak of) and Navy has competed at a very high level for years.

I'll take Harbaugh over Saban too.  I believe in the next year or two (unless the draw of the NFL's just too much again) he'll basically have UM where bammer is now....but WITHOUT the Scottie Pippin like assist that Emmert gives Saban.

Just look at Saban... He really THAT much better than he was before Emmert took over?