Malzahn vs. Saban

[abw0004 10,125]

Glad I created this thread.  Everyone is being respectful with their differences in views for once.  Maybe because it's Christmas time with people in better moods, but we need more like this.  

[bigbird 60,573]

48 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

The thing that amazes me is that people actually think that one guy can be so much better at recruiting and coaching than anyone else out there ...

Better than anyone ever...in the complete history of the game. No one has ever recruited like Bama has the last 10 years...EVER!

[GwillMac6 20,689]

1 minute ago, bigbird said:

Better than anyone ever...in the complete history of the game. No one has ever recruited like Bama has the last 10 years...EVER!

it would be a lot easier to digest if the dude had the personality of pete carroll at usc. Now THAT makes sense. I get why he was a dynamic recruiter.

[Tiger 8,829]

I know Saban seems like a major ass when he's being interviewed and such but I have no doubt that he's a charmer on the recruiting trail. And I bet he shows a lot more love to his players behind the scenes than what is shown on TV during games.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 minute ago, GwillMac6 said:

it would be a lot easier to digest if the dude had the personality of pete carroll at usc. Now THAT makes sense. I get why he was a dynamic recruiter.

You don't have to be a dynamic recruiter when your visits are followed by phone calls from people making big promises that they deliver on.

That is the one thing the Gus and Nick have in common... they both have the personality of a tree stump.

[bigbird 60,573]

8 minutes ago, GwillMac6 said:

it would be a lot easier to digest if the dude had the personality of pete carroll at usc. Now THAT makes sense. I get why he was a dynamic recruiter.

Sure, but even Pete and USC were busted with Bush.  However, anything that blows back on Saban blows back on Emmert and that won't happen. Saban will go down as the greatest coach and Emmert will go down as one of the NCAA's best presidents. residing over the NCAA during the most profitable years.

[AUsince72 11,084]

4 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Sure, but even Pete and USC were busted with Bush.  However, anything that blows back on Saban blows back on Emmert and that won't happen. Saban will go down as the greatest coach and Emmert will go down as one of the NCAA's best presidents. residing over the NCAA during the most profitable years.

Bean-Go!

[AUTigers910 45]

7 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Sure, but even Pete and USC were busted with Bush.  However, anything that blows back on Saban blows back on Emmert and that won't happen. Saban will go down as the greatest coach and Emmert will go down as one of the NCAA's best presidents. residing over the NCAA during the most profitable years.

This

[lionheartkc 6,150]

7 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Sure, but even Pete and USC were busted with Bush.

And that was just scratching the surface.  He literally had Hollywood recruiting for USC.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

8 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Saban will go down as the greatest coach and Emmert will go down as one of the NCAA's best presidents. residing over the NCAA during the most profitable years.

And when they are old and gray, some enterprising college student will manage to get an interview where they tell all, turn it into a book, and have the best seller of all time that tells the real story about how two men bought and sold college football.

[GwillMac6 20,689]

12 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

You don't have to be a dynamic recruiter when your visits are followed by phone calls from people making big promises that they deliver on.

That is the one thing the Gus and Nick have in common... they both have the personality of a tree stump.

I am just talking pure surface level superficial stuff if anyone had no knowledge of the inner workings of big time cfb programs. Its just easier to see why pete carroll was a great recruiter.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, GwillMac6 said:

I am just talking pure surface level superficial stuff if anyone had no knowledge of the inner workings of big time cfb programs. Its just easier to see why pete carroll was a great recruiter.

Yup... he was the exotic car salesmen of college football. I think Gus was trying to channel him a little when he bought his i8.

[AU64 10,122]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

Sure, but even Pete and USC were busted with Bush.  However, anything that blows back on Saban blows back on Emmert and that won't happen. Saban will go down as the greatest coach and Emmert will go down as one of the NCAA's best presidents. residing over the NCAA during the most profitable years.

All probably true....and our misfortune to be stuck in the same state with NS while all this has been happening.....

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, AU64 said:

All probably true....and our misfortune to be stuck in the same state with NS while all this has been happening.....

On the upside, when the machine isn't working as well as they like, they get bored and start taking pot-shots at us. At least we haven't had to deal with that crap in a while.

[Never2Yield 1,005]

1 hour ago, lionheartkc said:

On the upside, when the machine isn't working as well as they like, they get bored and start taking pot-shots at us. At least we haven't had to deal with that crap in a while.

Yeah, they are too busy winning SEC and National Championships ...

"Ain't nobody got time for that!!!"

[AUIH1 1,515]

2 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

On the upside, when the machine isn't working as well as they like, they get bored and start taking pot-shots at us. At least we haven't had to deal with that crap in a while.

I know you are not stupid. I am just checking in to make sure you are not delusional too.

 

wde

[Rednilla 5,391]

Honestly, Saban is not a great coach. He's a good coach and a great recruiter at a place where he can get away with that combination quite easily. All he has to do is supplement the REC with his natural ability to recruit and hire good assistants to make his life pretty easy.

I agree with WDE that Auburn should never be the training ground for a head coach, but with things as they are, I still think we (the fans) should give him at least another year before throwing in the towel, particularly if he replaces Lashlee with someone who can develop a solid passing game, like Kendal Briles. In any case, however, he's going to be here for another season, and no amount of crowing from the fan base will change that.

I do, however, believe the comparison of Saban's first few years with Malzahn's first few years is legitimate, and if we wait it out, I think Gus will make us all happy that we did.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

On 12/19/2016 at 11:48 AM, lionheartkc said:

I think you misread what Bird was implying. 

Bama might backslide with the next coach, but the machine is in motion, so I would bet that the next coach will just step in and keep it going... until someone stops it by stopping the machine.  As I've said before, when he leaves, it's not like everyone around him is going to forget how he did things and stop doing them that way. The only twist could be that the next guy won't have the NCAA connections.

Exactly. It is not just talent and coaching. They not only got key people into the SEC and NCAA, they also got in with ESPN and web sites like 247. So their Recruiting classes, especially to start with were bluffed up so as to create an image of a place to be. After a few classes they actually started getting those better recruits. Still today they are openly biased to grading any player who commits to uat higher than others. The owner of 247 even admits that they do grade a player by where he is going and not just his quality coming in. If you think that uat does not have a well oiled, undercover machine then you just don't look at the obvious. But it will end with nick to some degree. The reason is that I don't think they will give another coach the same control they gave him. There will also be a major power vacuum that will be created  at uat when he leaves. I suspect sometime after that most of their violations will come into view. WDE

[AU64 10,122]

25 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

Honestly, Saban is not a great coach. He's a good coach and a great recruiter at a place where he can get away with that combination quite easily. All he has to do is supplement the REC with his natural ability to recruit and hire good assistants to make his life pretty easy.

I agree with WDE that Auburn should never be the training ground for a head coach, but with things as they are, I still think we (the fans) should give him at least another year before throwing in the towel, particularly if he replaces Lashlee with someone who can develop a solid passing game, like Kendal Briles. In any case, however, he's going to be here for another season, and no amount of crowing from the fan base will change that.

I do, however, believe the comparison of Saban's first few years with Malzahn's first few years is legitimate, and if we wait it out, I think Gus will make us all happy that we did.

Guess I don't understand where this comes from....like saying that Florida or Georgia or LSU or Tennessee or ....????? should not be a training ground for a head coach...but look the real world out there .    

Experienced and successful HCs at the upper level almost never leave voluntarily so where will AU or any other Power 5 get those experienced and successful HCs?  Bring in guys who were fired for "cause" or their inability to satisfy the PTBs at their school...or some guy who was a Coordinator at a major school and hope he can make the transition. 

Just suggesting that if we lose patience with Gus, we will end up with another guy with no Power 5 resume and will have to hope he can adapt to the SEC. Maybe UF gave up on Muschamp too soon.....guess we will find out in a few years......and how long will Smart have at UGa?   

[Rednilla 5,391]

15 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Guess I don't understand where this comes from....like saying that Florida or Georgia or LSU or Tennessee or ....????? should not be a training ground for a head coach...but look the real world out there .    

Experienced and successful HCs at the upper level almost never leave voluntarily so where will AU or any other Power 5 get those experienced and successful HCs?  Bring in guys who were fired for "cause" or their inability to satisfy the PTBs at their school...or some guy who was a Coordinator at a major school and hope he can make the transition. 

Just suggesting that if we lose patience with Gus, we will end up with another guy with no Power 5 resume and will have to hope he can adapt to the SEC. Maybe UF gave up on Muschamp too soon.....guess we will find out in a few years......and how long will Smart have at UGa?   

We hired Tommy Tuberville from Ole Miss, Gene Chizik from Iowa State (which was probably a mistake considering his first head coach job was only for two bad years). Even Tater Tot was head coach at Samford for six years before taking over at Auburn, and Pat Dye was head honcho at East Carolina and Wyoming for seven seasons before taking the AU job. No, coaching at a lower level school isn't always going to translate into a successful head coach, but I think having more than a single year of head coaching should be at least preferable to a coach who hasn't been the head man at all or for a very short time period. Plucking a coach from a second tier Power 5 school or a lower level shouldn't be too difficult at a place like Auburn, because those schools are where coaches should be learning the basics of running a whole team rather than just half of it.

[DAG 33,997]

1 hour ago, Rednilla said:

Honestly, Saban is not a great coach. He's a good coach and a great recruiter at a place where he can get away with that combination quite easily. All he has to do is supplement the REC with his natural ability to recruit and hire good assistants to make his life pretty easy.

I agree with WDE that Auburn should never be the training ground for a head coach, but with things as they are, I still think we (the fans) should give him at least another year before throwing in the towel, particularly if he replaces Lashlee with someone who can develop a solid passing game, like Kendal Briles. In any case, however, he's going to be here for another season, and no amount of crowing from the fan base will change that.

I do, however, believe the comparison of Saban's first few years with Malzahn's first few years is legitimate, and if we wait it out, I think Gus will make us all happy that we did.

 

If Saban is not great then why the hell are we comparing Gus to him? Why is this lucky, good coach the litmus test for how we should perceive ours? 

[AU64 10,122]

7 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

We hired Tommy Tuberville from Ole Miss, Gene Chizik from Iowa State (which was probably a mistake considering his first head coach job was only for two bad years). Even Tater Tot was head coach at Samford for six years before taking over at Auburn, and Pat Dye was head honcho at East Carolina and Wyoming for seven seasons before taking the AU job. No, coaching at a lower level school isn't always going to translate into a successful head coach, but I think having more than a single year of head coaching should be at least preferable to a coach who hasn't been the head man at all or for a very short time period. Plucking a coach from a second tier Power 5 school or a lower level shouldn't be too difficult at a place like Auburn, because those schools are where coaches should be learning the basics of running a whole team rather than just half of it.

All examples are true....but in the past few years things have changed drastically as salaries have increased and expectations have also increased.  That's why UGa hired Smart, and UF hired Muschamp and Tennessee hired young Dooley and LSU has now hired Orgeron.  I mean the list goes on.....  schools who are dipping down at least one level to find a coach though some at least have more than a year of HC work, but as UT found out, a career at La Tech was not a good indicator of success in the SEC. Seems that many AU people gave Gus credit for the 2010 title and I guess thought he as like a co-HC or something.

I've followed AU football for half a century and much as I hate to say it, there is very little about Auburn these days that would cause a successful Power 5 coach to leave his current job to come here.   IMO, our next HC will be like Gus.....a good coaching resume' but no way to know if it means anything in the SEC and probably no wins at the Power 5 level.   

[Rednilla 5,391]

Just now, DAG said:

If Saban is not great then why the hell are we comparing Gus to him? Why is this lucky, good coach the litmus test for how we should perceive ours? 

It isn't that he's lucky, it's that he and the REC combine to make a more than formidable recruiting machine, and he's good enough to make that count, particularly in getting the assistant coaches he wants at the price they want.

[DAG 33,997]

Just now, Rednilla said:

It isn't that he's lucky, it's that he and the REC combine to make a more than formidable recruiting machine, and he's good enough to make that count, particularly in getting the assistant coaches he wants at the price they want.

 

So, why are we comparing our coach to this? Isn't that an unfair comparison. For example, if you have a child who is a b student, why would you compare him to a child who is an A student but has unfair advantages in achieving that A. Why would you not just compare him to another A student from the same cloth as your child? Makes zero sense to me.

[Rednilla 5,391]

3 minutes ago, AU64 said:

All examples are true....but in the past few years things have changed drastically as salaries have increased and expectations have also increased.  That's why UGa hired Smart, and UF hired Muschamp and Tennessee hired young Dooley and LSU has now hired Orgeron.  I mean the list goes on.....  schools who are dipping down at least one level to find a coach though some at least have more than a year of HC work, but as UT found out, a career at La Tech was not a good indicator of success in the SEC. Seems that many AU people gave Gus credit for the 2010 title and I guess thought he as like a co-HC or something.

I've followed AU football for half a century and much as I hate to say it, there is very little about Auburn these days that would cause a successful Power 5 coach to leave his current job to come here.   IMO, our next HC will be like Gus.....a good coaching resume' but no way to know if it means anything in the SEC and probably no wins at the Power 5 level.   

I'll admit that I liked that hire of Malzahn, and his history here before becoming a head coach was a major part of that. And, again, I do think he should be given at least one more year to right the ship and get us on the right track. But having to suffer through mediocre seasons for four years (if next year isn't any better) is plenty long enough to let him train on the job at a traditional SEC power like Auburn.

Also, Orgeron was a head coach, albeit not very successfully, before, and has had time coaching under other HCs to have learned from his mistakes, so putting him in the same class is unfair.