Malzahn vs. Saban

[DAG 34,017]

2 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I'd rather have Urban Meyer as my coach than Nick Saban. And I football-hate Urban. Their recruiting ability is essentially equal IMO but I don't think Saban could've won a national title with a 3rd string QB even in the BCS era. Forget winning a title where he has to navigate through a conference championship game, a playoff game, and a national title game with his 3rd string QB.

 

Worst of luck to both of them though.

 

I have no argument with UM. 1a and 1b IMO. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

First of all, You can't even put Shaw in this argument. Shaw never built a single thing. He took a legit Stanford team that Jim Harbaugh built and just utilized the same blueprint. Guess what? That is totally okay. You should use whatever aid you can to maintain a Succesful program. I am not going to take cool points away from him for that. However, he has never built anything. He never took on a program and left them better for the next person. Harbaugh and Saban both did that.  Now, could Saban have had the same success he had at Stanford that Harbaugh? I have no freaking clue. What I can say is everywhere that NS has gone, he has left that program for the better, much better than what he had to take on. Could Harbaugh win at Alabama like Saban has? Who knows. Saban in his second year won the SEC with Alabama, took them to a BCS bowl game, which they lost and won an NC his third year. Harbaugh is at UM now. They have lost to tOSU two years in a row now. He hasn't won a big ten championship yet. Will he win an NC next year? We will see. 

I don't disagree on Shaw necessarily... I threw him in there only because my point that though I agree Saban is a very good coach (I'm not disagreeing with that either), I just feel that what we saw at MSU & LSU are the real Saban.  If he had to actually abide by the rules (or at least tone it down to only cheating the same amount as everybody else) then he's just another "Gene Stallings" at bammer.  Good coach? Yes.  Bahr like god? No.  So he would be no better, on probably not as good as, those others named.

[DAG 34,017]

Just now, AUsince72 said:

I don't disagree on Shaw necessarily... I threw him in there only because my point that though I agree Saban is a very good coach (I'm not disagreeing with that either), I just feel that what we saw at MSU & LSU are the real Saban.  If he had to actually abide by the rules (or at least tone it down to only cheating the same amount as everybody else) then he's just another "Gene Stallings" at bammer.  Good coach? Yes.  Bahr like god? No.  So he would be no better, on probably not as good as, those others named.

 

Fair enough my friend.

[Tiger 8,830]

This might be hijacking some but here goes...

 

Why do we try to throw a wild wrinkle in there so early in some of the games? Like pulling JJ in the Iron Bowl for the 2nd play, or going to the whirly bird so early in the Clemson game, or pulling SW after the first snap in the Clemson game? Isn't that signaling to the defense "STAY AT HOME. DON'T FALL FOR ANYTHING BECAUSE SOMETHING CRAZY MIGHT HAPPEN"? Doesn't that hurt our chances of outsmarting the defense if we haven't established something first? Don't you increase your chances of tricking the D if you set some sort of pattern or idea for the defense to follow before getting wonky with the play calls? It's entirely possible I'm being dumb as hell here though

 

Unless maybe we are trying to run a "regular" play out of a different formation/look/guy taking the snap and then try to come back to that look later on but then run an unconventional play....but I just called that potential theory out and I'm just a joe schmoe message board guy. We gotta do a better job including these exotic looks IMO

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 hours ago, FoundationEagle said:

How so?  Wyche claimed he could double the amount of plays run. I guess maybe Gus runs it slower?  Also, the HUNH has nothing to do with scheme, it has to with pace. Gus got his pace from Wyche and his plays from the Wing T.  We can give him credit for using some good philosophies rarely used at the time, but not for creating them. 

*yawn* You're exhausting.

The HUNH has a lot to do with scheme.  You can't just walk out on the field and say "ok, go fast".  There strategy on what plays are run and when, how the plays are called in, when to slow down and why, when to speed up and why, etc.  There are also formation strategies. How about this... you go buy the book and learn all about it, and I'll go back to more productive activities. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

57 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Why do we try to throw a wild wrinkle in there so early in some of the games? Like pulling JJ in the Iron Bowl for the 2nd play, or going to the whirly bird so early in the Clemson game, or pulling SW after the first snap in the Clemson game? Isn't that signaling to the defense "STAY AT HOME. DON'T FALL FOR ANYTHING BECAUSE SOMETHING CRAZY MIGHT HAPPEN"? Doesn't that hurt our chances of outsmarting the defense if we haven't established something first? Don't you increase your chances of tricking the D if you set some sort of pattern or idea for the defense to follow before getting wonky with the play calls? It's entirely possible I'm being dumb as hell here though

It's a double edged sword.  If you can run multiple plays out of the same formation, it doesn't really matter what you show, because the D has to be ready for all of it. If you show a wrinkle early, they know it exists, but they still have to cover it, as well as the standard play run out of that formation.  The trick is to design the two plays in a way that covering one puts a defender out of position to cover the other one, so if the defenders sell out, you can burn them. 

Gus used to be know for being able to run 5-10 plays out of the same formation, always keeping defenses guessing. He fell out of that in 2015, when the O just wasn't capable of being that diverse (this is why he harps so much on receiver blocking, because he needs the same guys in on run and pass plays). I hope, now that we've got established talent on that side of the ball, that we'll start to see him get back to 50 different plays being run out of 5 formations, with the same personnel. 

[Tiger 8,830]

33 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

It's a double edged sword.  If you can run multiple plays out of the same formation, it doesn't really matter what you show, because the D has to be ready for all of it. If you show a wrinkle early, they know it exists, but they still have to cover it, as well as the standard play run out of that formation.  The trick is to design the two plays in a way that covering one puts a defender out of position to cover the other one, so if the defenders sell out, you can burn them. 

Gus used to be know for being able to run 5-10 plays out of the same formation, always keeping defenses guessing. He fell out of that in 2015, when the O just wasn't capable of being that diverse (this is why he harps so much on receiver blocking, because he needs the same guys in on run and pass plays). I hope, now that we've got established talent on that side of the ball, that we'll start to see him get back to 50 different plays being run out of 5 formations, with the same personnel. 

Good points all around. I guess I was wondering more about the timing of some of the calls rather than the calls themselves. Seemed our timing of such calls was much better in 2013-14 and when Gus was OC. Of course they all looked like they are timed well when they work lol

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, Tiger said:

Good points all around. I guess I was wondering more about the timing of some of the calls rather than the calls themselves. Seemed our timing of such calls was much better in 2013-14 and when Gus was OC. Of course they all looked like they are timed well when they work lol

Gus has been coaching scared.  He didn't feel like he fully had the personnel to run his system the way he likes to run it, so when he faces stiff competition, he started throwing plays out there to see what worked, since he didn't think he could win running a standard offense.  Hopefully he learned from that.

[keesler 5,928]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

I'd rather have Urban Meyer as my coach than Nick Saban. And I football-hate Urban. Their recruiting ability is essentially equal IMO but I don't think Saban could've won a national title with a 3rd string QB even in the BCS era. Forget winning a title where he has to navigate through a conference championship game, a playoff game, and a national title game with his 3rd string QB.

 

Worst of luck to both of them though.

I agree with you somewhat, but if uat wins another NC with a truefrosh QB then Saban is neck 'n neck with Meyer IMO, with NS having the edge in the trophy case.  

Bottom line though, none of the great coaches mentioned in this thread would ever be a "fit" for Auburn.  Our Administration would never tolerate the ego, attitude, or cut throat characteristics of a Meyer/Saban/Harbaugh.  

[GwillMac6 20,742]

12 minutes ago, keesler said:

I agree with you somewhat, but if uat wins another NC with a truefrosh QB then Saban is neck 'n neck with Meyer IMO, with NS having the edge in the trophy case.  

Bottom line though, none of the great coaches mentioned in this thread would ever be a "fit" for Auburn.  Our Administration would never tolerate the ego, attitude, or cut throat characteristics of a Meyer/Saban/Harbaugh.  

which is a shame. Why do we hate to be great? That is the whole point of major big time college athletics TO WIN!

[keesler 5,928]

1 hour ago, lionheartkc said:

Gus has been coaching scared.  He didn't feel like he fully had the personnel to run his system the way he likes to run it, so when he faces stiff competition, he started throwing plays out there to see what worked, since he didn't think he could win running a standard offense.  Hopefully he learned from that.

Coaching scared?  We have a HC pulling +$4.5mm/yr coaching scared in the freaking SEC - sad.

He didn't feel like he had the personnel to run his system?  We have a HC with a roster full of HIS players,  recruiting rankings top 10 in the nation but he doesn't feel like they can run his system - sad.

He throws plays out there to see what will work?  We have a HC that is running by the seat of his pants, basically throwing crap against the wall to see what will stick - sad.

[Tiger 8,830]

15 minutes ago, keesler said:

I agree with you somewhat, but if uat wins another NC with a truefrosh QB then Saban is neck 'n neck with Meyer IMO, with NS having the edge in the trophy case.  

Bottom line though, none of the great coaches mentioned in this thread would ever be a "fit" for Auburn.  Our Administration would never tolerate the ego, attitude, or cut throat characteristics of a Meyer/Saban/Harbaugh.  

scared of success.....

[Rednilla 5,397]

6 hours ago, keesler said:

I haven't been on this board much lately.....What's the chance of Gus making a change at OC?

In the wake of the IB and getting the invite to the Sugar, it seems like folks on here haven't pushed the Rhett replacement agenda as much as they were after the UGA flop and the UAT loss.

I don't think it's very high, but we can hope to see better management of the passing game, regardless.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

31 minutes ago, keesler said:

Coaching scared?  We have a HC pulling +$4.5mm/yr coaching scared in the freaking SEC - sad.

He didn't feel like he had the personnel to run his system?  We have a HC with a roster full of HIS players,  recruiting rankings top 10 in the nation but he doesn't feel like they can run his system - sad.

He throws plays out there to see what will work?  We have a HC that is running by the seat of his pants, basically throwing crap against the wall to see what will stick - sad.

Yup... The Clemson game was the definitive definition of sad...

[lionheartkc 6,150]

45 minutes ago, keesler said:

Bottom line though, none of the great coaches mentioned in this thread would ever be a "fit" for Auburn.  Our Administration would never tolerate the ego, attitude, or cut throat characteristics of a Meyer/Saban/Harbaugh.  

I think AU might go for Harbaugh, but you're right, AU wouldn't tolerate Saban or Meyer and I'm completely ok with that.

[FoundationEagle 637]

3 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

*yawn* You're exhausting.

The HUNH has a lot to do with scheme.  You can't just walk out on the field and say "ok, go fast".  There strategy on what plays are run and when, how the plays are called in, when to slow down and why, when to speed up and why, etc.  There are also formation strategies. How about this... you go buy the book and learn all about it, and I'll go back to more productive activities. 

Lmao. You're argument now to try and prove he invented something is there has to be some kind of scheme other than "go fast"?  You're right. I'm sure there wasn't any scheme in the no huddle, and no slowing down ever for certain reasons, or any calling plays in.  The formation strategies are mostly wing T or basic shotgun, he didn't invent those either. Essentially you're now claiming he invented it because he ran a wing T instead of a pro offense and because he had a different way of calling in plays. Ok then. 

[aubaseball 2,652]

 

I think AU might go for Harbaugh, but you're right, AU wouldn't tolerate Saban or Meyer and I'm completely ok with that.   And this is the reason that Auburn will always be second fiddle.   It's this mentality that so many AU people have that they will never go out and find the top coach

[corchjay 5,311]

Just gonna throw this out there.  Auburn is much more then a coach... much more then a football team.  It's a university of higher learning and a "family".  Enjoy football for what it is, "entertainment", don't let it define who you are by who you cheer for.  Just sit back and enjoy the growth of the young men that bleed orange and blue.  

[GwillMac6 20,742]

39 minutes ago, corchjay said:

Just gonna throw this out there.  Auburn is much more then a coach... much more then a football team.  It's a university of higher learning and a "family".  Enjoy football for what it is, "entertainment", don't let it define who you are by who you cheer for.  Just sit back and enjoy the growth of the young men that bleed orange and blue.  

And I am going to throw this out there. SO many Auburn people use that as a crutch to justify losing and it needs to stop. 

[bigbird 60,580]

1 hour ago, corchjay said:

Just gonna throw this out there.  Auburn is much more then a coach... much more then a football team.  It's a university of higher learning and a "family".  Enjoy football for what it is, "entertainment", don't let it define who you are by who you cheer for.  Just sit back and enjoy the growth of the young men that bleed orange and blue.  

We are used to that so it is easier to say. We have a completely different perspective because we have had the ire of fans directed towards us. Many can't grasp the concept of it being a game and do wrap much of their identity into the record of the team. I most likely did as well before I was apart of the other side. 

[bigman334 56]

i am and will always be a fan of college football. i can understand not wanting to give a rival school credit. Thats just the way it is. But i can count on 1 hand the number of coaches who are on the level of Sabes.. I'd put Meyer on his level but he's beneath nobody. He will not be there forever though. I dont think Harbaugh nor Shaw is on the level of Meyer or Sabes. One thing that makes Sabes so good is he's a good evaluator of talent for the system he runs. He doesnt recruit guys that dont fit. Which i think is one of our biggest issues.

[DAG 34,017]

3 hours ago, GwillMac6 said:

And I am going to throw this out there. SO many Auburn people use that as a crutch to justify losing and it needs to stop. 

The thing is Auburn people are full of crap just like Bama and every other fanbase. Every freaking body curves the rules one way or another. We have a terrible past and I am not too convinced we did things 100 percent right under the chizik era. That being said , I love AU and I hope the people who actually make the decisions, prioritize in getting the best possible in everything they do. Quite frankly , the people who say they wouldn't take this guy or that guy are not believable. Let's face it , we've taken players who have been very shady at their previous institutions of study. Not speculation , proven history of breaking the law , rules or whatever. In the real world , often not, you don't get a 2nd or 3rd chance UNLESS you have some sort of ability not common to the layman. This is reality. If you don't care and just want to enjoy the game of football, cool. This is your prerogative. However, do not complain about the the Bama and tOSU of the world in one breath, while holding on to that mindset with the next.

[AUsince72 11,084]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

We are used to that so it is easier to say. We have a completely different perspective because we have had the ire of fans directed towards us. Many can't grasp the concept of it being a game and do wrap much of their identity into the record of the team. I most likely did as well before I was apart of the other side. 

Amen.  I stand guilty of this often, on game day, but then perspective calls me "Daddy" and I forget football even exists for awhile.

However, this is exactly what so many of us (dare I say most?) accuse bammer fan of, and quite frankly, many of them (dare I say most?) seem to do so.

I want Auburn to win as much as anybody but if wanted Auburn to think & act like uat.... I'd just be a bammer.

[corchjay 5,311]

7 hours ago, GwillMac6 said:

And I am going to throw this out there. SO many Auburn people use that as a crutch to justify losing and it needs to stop. 

I think my attitude has changed as I've aged.  Plus being a part of 3 state championships as a player and 2 as a coach makes you realize the affect you have on people are much more then wins in the win column.  

Sure college football is big business.  Hell high school football is big business now.  One of my good friends Josh Niblett makes 125,000 a year... for coaching high school football.  

And again I want Auburn to win every game in every sport every year but that's not going to happen as much as we want it.  Plus I'm tired of changed coaches every 5 years.  Lets see what someone can build.  I assure you there are about 75-100 schools out there that kill to have what us Auburn fans have.  Great Tradition, great wins, great players, and great coaches. 

[AURandy56 148]

I am still amazed at how Saban gets all those 4 and 5 star players, with a lot of them knowing they're going to ride the pine for a few years before getting any significant playing time, or at best being on the punt teams. I don't doubt that the REC helps, but do they help that much? Do they "help" any more than "help" players might be getting to go to AU or UGA or any other school? If the REC is doing all that's suspected, why aren't the other coaches in the league and outside the league raising hell about it? I realize Saban and Emmert have a long history together, but could/would Emmert totally ignore outcries from other coaches, in and out of the SEC? Maybe I'm being naive about all this. I also wonder if AU is also recruiting these same 4 and 5 star recruits that Bama is going after? I read an article by Sports Down South on predicting where the top uncommitted 2017 recruits will go, and AU was NOT in the running for any of them. NONE. 

As far as the winning issue---Gus is paid 4.5 million dollars to WIN, not just to make the AU faithful feel good. Professors are paid to produce smart students. If they don't produce, they are sent packing. Why shouldn't college coaches be held to the same standard of producing a winning product? I agree that teams shouldn't expect to win every game every year---outside of those in Tuscaloosa---but we should expect that our coaches put out the best effort to win, not just to make us all feel good. I think we would all feel GREAT with winning.