Woman accuses Kavanaugh of sexual assault decades ago

[AUDub 11,158]

Ridiculous. Three people allegedly in the room, but we only want to hear from two of them? Come on, Lindsey. 

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23 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I'm probably alone but even if Ford's story is true, it shouldn't prevent the confirmation of a good man who has apparently spent over 30 years since the accusers date without a hitch on his behavior. I'm sure some of my HS girlfriends could say some bad things about me. I'm not what I ought to be but thank God I'm not what I used to be.

I'm not sure where the line is for me - there are some youthful indiscretions I will excuse - but attempted rape crosses it. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

47 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I'm probably alone but even if Ford's story is true, it shouldn't prevent the confirmation of a good man who has apparently spent over 30 years since the accusers date without a hitch on his behavior. I'm sure some of my HS girlfriends could say some bad things about me. I'm not what I ought to be but thank God I'm not what I used to be.

Did you pin any of your girlfriends down and clamp your hand over her mouth while trying to rape her?  And the only thing that stopped you was not you coming to your senses and apologizing, but your bumbling, drunk-ass friend accidentally knocking all of you to the floor allowing her a chance to escape?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

13 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Did you pin any of your girlfriends down and clamp your hand over her mouth while trying to rape her?  And the only thing that stopped you was not you coming to your senses and apologizing, but your bumbling, drunk-ass friend accidentally knocking all of you to the floor allowing her a chance to escape?

No. But did Kavanaugh? And I would note there are a lot of other things besides attempted rape that I'm not proud of and wouldn't look good on my record. Heck just getting too close in a slow dance would be frowned on today. Did you ever do that or anything you wouldn't want to see in the public media today?

[AUDub 11,158]

1 minute ago, Proud Tiger said:

No. But did Kavanaugh?

Allegedly, but that's different from the point you were trying to make. If he did it, it's disqualifying, full stop. This isn't some run of the mill "fooling around" accusation. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

21 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

No. But did Kavanaugh? And I would note there are a lot of other things besides attempted rape that I'm not proud of and wouldn't look good on my record. Heck just getting too close in a slow dance would be frowned on today. Did you ever do that or anything you wouldn't want to see in the public media today?

That isn't the point you made.  You said even if he did it it shouldn't matter.  So we're past asking whether he did it or not.

But you also went on to say that you're sure some of your HS girlfriends would have some bad things to say about you.  So I asked if you were ever accused of doing something as serious as what he's accused of, because otherwise you being a crappy boyfriend in HS is irrelevant.  

Finally, I've done plenty of things in my life, especially as a teenager that I'd be embarrassed about.  But none of them are anything remotely close to attempted rape and have zero bearing on whether attempted rape should be an automatic disqualifier.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Can we please stop using this hackneyed argument about how many years ago something horrible happened?  It's irrelevant.  It has been explained time and again why people choose not to say anything when a traumatic event like sexual assault happens, and then what sort of event might finally push them over the edge to speak up years or even decades later.  This is not hard.  

And also, while traumatic events affect every individual differently, it is completely normal for a situation like this to affect a person for years, decades, or even the rest of their life.  Nothing about the time frame makes it any more or any less credible or possible.

If you don't believe her for other reasons, fine.  But the "after all these years!" defense is ignorant.  Stop using it.

I do have problem with " he said she said" after decades. My wife and other women in my life feel the same. 

Lets leave it at I do not believe her for other reasons.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

13 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

I do have problem with " he said she said" after decades. My wife and other women in my life feel the same. 

You and the circle of women in your life aren't the standard by which this is judged.  There are very good reasons women don't come forward at the time and very good reasons why they sometimes feel compelled to do so years later.  This isn't just my opinion, it is the educated opinion of experts who study such things for a living and have worked with hundreds of victims of sexual trauma over decades.

 

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Lets leave it at I do not believe her for other reasons.

Then don't believe her for other reasons.  But the "been too long" argument is stupid.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I understand lots of women not wanting to come forward. The problem for me in this case is the way it came out and the timing in a highly charged political atmosphere. She should have come out long ago while Kavanaugh was a federal judge.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

17 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But the "been too long" argument is stupid.

I am not making the "been to long" argument. Just saying I have a problem with truth coming out after decades. Especially when going back to high school years.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

I am not making the "been to long" argument. Just saying I have a problem with truth coming out after decades. Especially when going back to high school years.

That is the "been too long" argument.  Call it the "coming out after decades" argument if that makes you happy.  It's the same thing and still stupid.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

9 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I understand lots of women not wanting to come forward. The problem for me in this case is the way it came out and the timing in a highly charged political atmosphere. She should have come out long ago while Kavanaugh was a federal judge.

I'm sure she appreciates men explaining to her how she should handle her own sexual assault.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I'm sure she appreciates men explaining to her how she should handle her own sexual assault.

Do you mean how to handle claim of sexual assault 

[Zeek 16,657]

On 9/14/2018 at 11:46 AM, TitanTiger said:

I am all about the MeToo moment we're having.  It's long overdue.  But at some point we're going to have to come up with some minimum standard of evidence or proof or corroboration or something.  It's getting to where the mere accusation can ruin a man's reputation and derail his career.  Does it (a false accusation) happen often?  I don't think it does, at least in the general population of men.  But might it happen more often when the stakes are high?  Absolutely.  Especially if it can be done anonymously.

This is where I'm at with this. There are definitely sections where the elites work and live where it is likely more prevalent than the "average joe". However, it has gotten almost like a lynch mob where the burden of proof no longer exists. Innocent until proven guilty in the U.S.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Just now, SaltyTiger said:

Do you mean how to handle claim of sexual assault 

We are speaking of why women who actually victims of sexual assault don't speak up sooner and PT added on that she should have said something when he became a federal judge.  We're all aware that it's still allegations.  The point is, men telling women who've been assaulted how they should handle it is laughable and ridiculous.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Let's try a different scenario. Suppose she reported the incident when it happened. Would Kavanaugh be arrested just based on her word. Let's assume yes. Then it gets to court and a jury. If she couldn't provide any more info than she has now would any jury convict Kavanaugh? No way. And that is why a lot of women don't come forward. They can't prove it, even if true, and they don't want to acknowledge they have been assaulted or raped.

 

 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Just now, Zeek said:

This is where I'm at with this. There are definitely sections where the elites work and live where it is likely more prevalent than the "average joe". However, it has gotten almost like a lynch mob where the burden of proof no longer exists. Innocent until proven guilty in the U.S.

However, things have changed from when I typed this.  I stand by what I said, but in this instance we no longer have an anonymous letter and nothing else.  We have a woman going on the record with the Washington Post and who is now willing to testify to Congress and answer direct questions.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

We are speaking of why women who actually victims of sexual assault don't speak up sooner and PT added on that she should have said something when he became a federal judge.  We're all aware that it's still allegations.  The point is, men telling women who've been assaulted how they should handle it is laughable and ridiculous.

I wasn't trying to "tell" her anything. Just expressing my curiousity of why she didn't do it sooner when he was federal judge for. so many years. You are right......it's her choice when she decides to come out but I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to question her timing without it being "laughable and ridiculous."

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, Proud Tiger said:

Let's try a different scenario. Suppose she reported the incident when it happened. Would Kavanaugh be arrested just based on her word. Let's assume yes. Then it gets to court and a jury. If she couldn't provide any more info than she has now would any jury convict Kavanaugh? No way. And that is why a lot of women don't come forward. They can't prove it, even if true, and they don't want to acknowledge they have been assaulted or raped.

This is absolutely true.  It's probably the #1 reason more women don't come forward, particularly with attempted rape.  At least with a rape if the woman is able to get to a hospital and get a rape kit done there's a chance of physical evidence being collected that can bolster her claim.  But if not, she has to decide whether it's worth it to challenge some rich prep school kid and his family and get dragged through the mud and called a liar and a slut or worse.  

Then if she doesn't say something and a few years go by, it seems easier to just put it in the past and try to move on.  But it's not always easy to move on.  The fear and trauma of what she experienced lingers on and affects future relationships, especially as it comes to trust and sex.  After it's been a while and she's made something of a normal life for herself, the cost of coming forward seems way too steep without a very compelling reason otherwise.  But an unelected, lifetime appointment to the most powerful court in the land?  That is a pretty compelling reason to try and overcome your fear of dragging your family through hell, being accused of being paid off, being a liar, a psycho, a slut, and God knows what else.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

However, things have changed from when I typed this.  I stand by what I said, but in this instance we no longer have an anonymous letter and nothing else.  We have a woman going on the record with the Washington Post and who is now willing to testify to Congress and answer direct questions.

She hasn't agreed to testify to Congress yet.

 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

3 minutes ago, Proud Tiger said:

I wasn't trying to "tell" her anything. Just expressing my curiousity of why she didn't do it sooner when he was federal judge for. so many years. You are right......it's her choice when she decides to come out but I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to question her timing without it being "laughable and ridiculous."

You said she "should have" come out sooner.  That is telling her (or victims in general) how they are supposed to handle their sexual assaults.

And yes, it is laughable and ridiculous to question the truthfulness of a sexual assault allegation based on some self-imposed length of time you deem acceptable since it occurred.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Just now, Proud Tiger said:

She hasn't agreed to testify to Congress yet.

Yes she has.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/17/politics/brett-kavanaugh-testimony/index.html

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Ford teaches at Stanford. Condelezza Rice, who strongly endorsed Kavanaugh, is on the Stanford Board of Regents. If I was Rice I would call a meeting of the Board and have Ford present her case to them. Let them decide how convincing her case is before she maybe flunks on the national scale and embarrasses the university.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, Proud Tiger said:

Ford teaches at Stanford. Condelezza Rice, who strongly endorsed Kavanaugh, is on the Stanford Board of Regents. If I was Rice I would call a meeting of the Board and have Ford present her case to them. Let them decide how convincing her case is before she maybe flunks on the national scale and embarrasses the university.

That is not the proper venue for such a thing and Stanford should have zero say in whether she goes forward with her testimony.  For the purposes of this confirmation, Congress is the proper venue.

[Zeek 16,657]

12 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

However, things have changed from when I typed this.  I stand by what I said, but in this instance we no longer have an anonymous letter and nothing else.  We have a woman going on the record with the Washington Post and who is now willing to testify to Congress and answer direct questions.

Understood, but I don't think the burden of proof disappears and it's unfortunate that we have reached a time where these things have to be questioned in the first place; though it may always have been this way. I don't put it past either party to set something like this up or pay to promote a narrative. Not saying this is the case with Kav's accuser but we live in an extremely monochrome world with every shade of gray and very little black and white.