Where are they now?

[Tiger Al 0]

Where's Delay, Frist, Dobson and the rest of the gang now that another, the third this year, hospital has determined that a life just isn't worth the trouble (cost) of trying to save? Why aren't Kay Bailey Hutchison and John Cornyn rushing down to Austin to get the legislature to enact a law to stop this? Why haven't the pro-"life" conservatives who mobilized the media to camp out in Florida doing the same now? If every life is precious, where are they? Where's the outrage against activist hospitals or extremist legislators? Is there not enough political capital to gain this time?

Hospital rules to unplug baby girl

Leukemia patient's parents scramble to find new care facility

By TODD ACKERMAN

Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

In Houston's latest end-of-life controversy, Memorial Hermann Hospital has decided to remove from life support a 6-month-old girl whose leukemia has spread to her brain.

The parents of Knya Dismuke-Howard, who also has multiple-organ failure and a life-threatening antibiotic-resistant infection, vowed to fight the decision. Under Texas law, they have eight days remaining to find another facility to take her.

"I think she can beat the odds," said Tamiko Dismuke, the baby's mother. "She's a fighter. The hospital's given up on her, but everyone who's witnessed her through this has been amazed at how she keeps coming back."

Dismuke said the family hasn't hired a lawyer or decided to take legal action but may still do so. She said their first priority is finding a hospital to take her.

Memorial Hermann officials said other pediatric hospitals they consulted concurred with their treatment plan and decision to discontinue care.

They said the infant, who is on a respirator, is suffering badly — she is on morphine and other opiates to relieve pain — and described her condition as hopeless.

The case is the third in Houston this spring to publicly test a 1999 state law that allows hospitals to discontinue treatment in futile cases 10 days after notifying loved ones of their intentions. The others involved a 6-month-old boy with a fatal form of dwarfism and a 68-year-old man in a persistent vegetative state.

The families delayed both those cases by appealing them to the courts, and in that time the wife of the man found a San Antonio nursing home to take him. The boy died after Texas Children's Hospital unplugged his respirator.

Knya Dismuke-Howard's case dates to early December, when Memorial Hermann diagnosed the then 5-week-old with leukemia, the most common cancer in older children but extremely rare in infants. She received treatment at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center but shuttled back and forth to Memorial Hermann because M.D. Anderson's intensive care unit only accepts children 3 and older.

The survival rate for infant leukemia is 50 percent, but it drops to 5 percent if the patient relapses, and significantly less than that once complications occur. Infant patients tolerate chemotherapy reasonably well, as long as the dosage is adjusted for their size, said an M.D. Anderson doctor.

In the last month, Knya Dismuke-Howard's leukemia relapsed and complications set in, such as the brain tumor, bacteria-resistant infection and multiple-organ failure. Her white blood cell count dropped to zero.

Memorial Hermann's ethics committee met Thursday and decided further care would be futile. They plan to discontinue treatment except for pain relief May 8.

"Knya's story is a sad one for everyone who cares for her," Memorial Hermann said in a statement. "The committee has determined that curative treatment is no longer appropriate given the specific facts of the case."

Dismuke said she wasn't surprised by the decision, hospital officials having emphasized the case was "a long shot the whole time." But busy searching the Internet and asking people for referrals in hopes of finding another facility, she said she hasn't given up.

"If you saw our daughter, you'd know why we have hope," said Dismuke. "She's fully aware — she opens her eyes when we enter the room and makes facial expressions, like moving her eyebrows or pouting. She's a trouper."

Meanwhile, the man transferred to a nursing home seemed destined again to be taken off life support earlier this week when a San Antonio hospital, where he'd been admitted with pneumonia, announced such plans.

But Friday, his wife said the nursing home agreed to take him back even in a condition requiring intravenous feeding.

LINK

[WarTim 3,456]

Since liberal judges will see to it that this little girl dies, would it be futile to make the attempt?

[Piglet 0]

I don't get it. Since the 6-month old is obviously too young to be married, don't the parents as the next of kin get the final say-so? It says the parents are the ones fighting the hospital. Who made the hospital legal guardian of a child?

Sometimes Texas just seems like a foreign country to me, like Mexico or California.

Who signed the 1999 law into effect? Must have been someone who don't care much about life, right?

[Jenny AU-92 0]

NO COMPARISON. This child, just like the other child in Houston, was DYING. DYING. NO HOPE. NO OTHER HOSPITAL WOULD TAKE THEM. Just because a parent wishes things were different, sometimes wishes aren't enough. If this child or the other one had a realistic chance in hell, then there would have been another hospital to take them. But there wasn't.

And news flash, the child in this current story died this morning while still being treated - JUST LIKE THE HOSPITAL SAID IT WOULD.

link to Houston Barnacle

The 6-month-old baby at the center of a life support battle at Memorial Hermann Children's Hospital died  this morning even though she was still getting full medical treatment.

Let me throw this one back at you. Where was the "Honorable" Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee when the fight was on for Terri Schiavo, about whom there was conflicting evidence as to her mental status? Ms. Publicity Whore Sheila Jackson Lee DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP TO VOTE on the bill about Terri Schiavo, even in opposition. But because this is a black child in Houston, all of a sudden, Lee is sticking her ugly mug in every camera and microphone within reach, even tho in this case, like the other, there is 100% evidence that the child would not and could not live/recover and is SUFFERING. This most recent case, the bacterial infection was eating this child ALIVE - same article:

She began her struggle with leukemia when she was just five weeks old, and the cancer had spread to her brain. She also had multiple-organ failure and a serious bacterial infection, the frequent cleaning of which was causing suffering, doctors said. She was on morphine and other opiates to relieve pain

The child was on MORPHINE to ease its pain. What kind of parent wants their kid to suffer like that? But now all of a sudden Lee is going to introduce a bill in Congress to stop a hospital from making this choice when the parents will not or in the case of Sun Hudson ARE NOT COMPETENT ENOUGH to make this choice. But she said not a peep about Terri Schiavo. Hypocrite.

And to answer your questio, Piglet, I would rather be in Texas than a lot of other backassward places I could think of. A lot of thought and care has gone into making this law - it's not just an arbitrary pull the plug thing. The hospital is simply refusing to provide treatment - if the family can find someplace else for the patient to go, so be it. ONCE AGAIN - NO ONE WOULD TAKE THIS CHILD - IT WAS DYING.

A 1999 Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue treatment even if the patient's family members disagree. The doctor's recommendation must be approved by the hospital's ethics committee, and family members must be given 10 days' written notice of the decision so they can look for another facility

In Dismuke-Howard's case, five hospitals had rejected requests to care for the girl.

[Tigermike 3,041]

NO COMPARISON.  This child, just like the other child in Houston, was DYING.  DYING.  NO HOPE.  NO OTHER HOSPITAL WOULD TAKE THEM.  Just because a parent wishes things were different, sometimes wishes aren't enough.  If this child or the other one had a realistic chance in hell, then there would have been another hospital to take them.  But there wasn't. 

And news flash, the child in this current story died this morning while still being treated - JUST LIKE THE HOSPITAL SAID IT WOULD.

link to Houston Barnacle

The 6-month-old baby at the center of a life support battle at Memorial Hermann Children's Hospital died  this morning even though she was still getting full medical treatment.

Let me throw this one back at you. Where was the "Honorable" Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee when the fight was on for Terri Schiavo, about whom there was conflicting evidence as to her mental status? Ms. Publicity Whore Sheila Jackson Lee DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP TO VOTE on the bill about Terri Schiavo, even in opposition. But because this is a black child in Houston, all of a sudden, Lee is sticking her ugly mug in every camera and microphone within reach, even tho in this case, like the other, there is 100% evidence that the child would not and could not live/recover and is SUFFERING. This most recent case, the bacterial infection was eating this child ALIVE - same article:

She began her struggle with leukemia when she was just five weeks old, and the cancer had spread to her brain. She also had multiple-organ failure and a serious bacterial infection, the frequent cleaning of which was causing suffering, doctors said. She was on morphine and other opiates to relieve pain

The child was on MORPHINE to ease its pain. What kind of parent wants their kid to suffer like that? But now all of a sudden Lee is going to introduce a bill in Congress to stop a hospital from making this choice when the parents will not or in the case of Sun Hudson ARE NOT COMPETENT ENOUGH to make this choice. But she said not a peep about Terri Schiavo. Hypocrite.

And to answer your questio, Piglet, I would rather be in Texas than a lot of other backassward places I could think of. A lot of thought and care has gone into making this law - it's not just an arbitrary pull the plug thing. The hospital is simply refusing to provide treatment - if the family can find someplace else for the patient to go, so be it. ONCE AGAIN - NO ONE WOULD TAKE THIS CHILD - IT WAS DYING.

A 1999 Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue treatment even if the patient's family members disagree. The doctor's recommendation must be approved by the hospital's ethics committee, and family members must be given 10 days' written notice of the decision so they can look for another facility

In Dismuke-Howard's case, five hospitals had rejected requests to care for the girl.

158475[/snapback]

Thanks Jenny for the truth of the situation.

"Ms. Publicity Whore Sheila Jackson Lee "

[Tiger Al 0]

Oh the hypocrisy! Sometimes moral relativism is good...OK, I got it.

"Hi. I'm Senator Bill Frist." "And, I'm Senator Rick Santorum." "We're Pro-Life Republicans.* We believe that all life is sacred. We're fighting everyday in the US Senate to protect precious lives from the assault coming from activist judges, universities and the pro-death liberals."

*Offer does not apply to prisoners, the poor (lazy) or those that hospitals deem otherwise unworthy. Certain other restrictions apply. See your GOP representatives for details.

[WarTim 3,456]

Hi! I am hitlary clinton. Hi! I am john kerry. We believe that life and death matters should be at the lone discretion of liberal judges. (And, hey, if a judge is not available, we libs will be more than happy to decide to kill 'em all." ( unless they are liberal VOTERS!)

p.s. You are quite welcome!

liberals....Nature's idiots.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

Funny, Al, haha. But as usual, you are glossing over the FACTS of the situation to try and slam the right.

....those that hospitals deem otherwise unworthy.

158489[/snapback]

HOW is refusing to continue extreme care to an actively dying person - not to be confused with a "terminally ill not sure when they will die" person - the same as a hospital deeming someone to be "unworthy"?? We have gone down this road before. I find it extremely telling that NO ONE would agree to take this child in, because it was DYING. AND IT DIED. How you can equate this with the right to life movement is beyond me. This was no life. This child was being eaten alive wiht infection. It's brain was riddled with cancer. It had ZERO white cells. Get that? ZERO. NIL. NONE. This was not a "life" issue - this was a "how much longer will we violate our hypocratic oath and leave this child to suffer" issue. The hospital gave the family time and assistance in locating another facility, and they still could not find one. It is doubtful the child would have even survived the transport.

It is no surprise to me that Frist and Delay and others did not get involved in this situation. There was no moral relativism here - SOMETIMES PEOPLE, EVEN CHILDREN, GET SICK AND DIE. You can't stop that. Frist and Delay got that. The Publicity Whore doesn't becuse she is a stupid b***h. There was NO question, NO doubt as to this child's condition - it was DYING. Teri Schiavo was not dying right that very minute. Her's was a quality of life issue, in which neither side was totally honest about the case, and where there was maybe doubt about not only her true condition but also her wishes in continuing life support. BIG, HUGE difference. Your feeble attempt to compare the two is disingenuious at best, stupid at worst.

What DOES surprise me is that the LIBERALS in Houston are now jumping all over this case, when they ignored Schiavo, as I mentioned before. Sheila Jackson Lee IS a publicity whore, the biggest one in town next to Quannell X. Their involvement centered around the fact that the child was black - they could give a S**T about right to life issues and hospitals making the tough choices when parents are unwilling or unable to do so. Thank goodness God saw fit to take this child before his horrible situation turned into another media frenzy.

[Tiger Al 0]

Your feeble attempt to compare the two is disingenuious at best, stupid at worst.

Not really. Not if you are TRULY pro-LIFE. The fact that a hospital can decide, against the wishes of the patients family, that any life sustaining efforts will be discontinued should be anathema to any TRULY pro-life person. Otherwise, aren't we getting into that "moral relativism" that conservatives love to accuse liberals of engaging in? It seems to me that they're more anti-choice than they are pro-life.

The truly ironic thing about this is that if they knew Knya (otherwise known as "it") was this sick while she was still in utero, they'd blow up an abortion clinic before letting her mother abort the pregnancy. However, once the hospital board decides that Knya is truly "unsavable," pro-"lifers" have no problem pulling the plug. Isn't there a disconnect to that kind of reasoning? No pun intended.

[WarTim 3,456]

I will state the FACT, once again loud and proud....."liberals, Nature's idiots"

[Tiger Al 0]

I will state the FACT, once again loud and proud....."liberals, Nature's idiots"

158521[/snapback]

Timmy, it's not polite to interrupt adults when they're talking. Run along.

[Tigermike 3,041]

Your feeble attempt to compare the two is disingenuious at best, stupid at worst.

Not really. Not if you are TRULY pro-LIFE. The fact that a hospital can decide, against the wishes of the patients family, that any life sustaining efforts will be discontinued should be anathema to any TRULY pro-life person. Otherwise, aren't we getting into that "moral relativism" that conservatives love to accuse liberals of engaging in? It seems to me that they're more anti-choice than they are pro-life.

The truly ironic thing about this is that if they knew Knya (otherwise known as "it") was this sick while she was still in utero, they'd blow up an abortion clinic before letting her mother abort the pregnancy. However, once the hospital board decides that Knya is truly "unsavable," pro-"lifers" have no problem pulling the plug. Isn't there a disconnect to that kind of reasoning? No pun intended.

158519[/snapback]

In the Judeo-Christian value system, God is the source of moral values and therefore what is moral and immoral transcends personal or societal opinion. Without God, each society or individual makes up its or his/her moral standards. But once individuals or societies become the source of right and wrong, right and wrong, good and evil, are merely adjectives describing one's preferences. This is known as moral relativism, and it is the dominant attitude toward morality in modern secular society.

Moral relativism is the position that moral propositions do not reflect absolute or universal truths. It not only holds that ethical judgments emerge from social customs and personal preferences, but also that there is no single standard by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth. Many relativists see moral values as applicable only within certain cultural boundaries. Some would even suggest that one person's ethical judgments or acts cannot be judged by another, though most relativists propound a more limited version of the theory.

Some moral relativists — for example, Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980) — hold that a personal and subjective moral core lies at the foundation of our moral acts. They believe that public morality is a reflection of social convention, and that only personal, subjective morality is truly authentic.

Moral relativism is not the same as moral pluralism, which acknowledges the co-existence of opposing ideas and practices, but does not require that they be equally valid. Moral relativism, in contrast, contends that opposing moral positions have no truth value, and that there is no preferred standard of reference by which to judge them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

In this case Al, there is an absolute and universal truth. People die. God is the giver of life and all people die at some time. Some people die at an early age others live very long lives. Your attempt to make the suffering of this family a political statement against the right is pathetic.

[Tiger Al 0]

In this case Al, there is an absolute and universal truth. People die. God is the giver of life and all people die at some time. Some people die at an early age others live very long lives. Your attempt to make the suffering of this family a political statement against the right is pathetic.

Then, why the uproar over abortion or Terri Schiavo?

[TitanTiger 20,499]

In this case Al, there is an absolute and universal truth. People die. God is the giver of life and all people die at some time. Some people die at an early age others live very long lives. Your attempt to make the suffering of this family a political statement against the right is pathetic.

Then, why the uproar over abortion or Terri Schiavo?

158532[/snapback]

Is this a serious question? Abortion and the Schiavo case are situations where people are taking it upon themselves to end the life of someone who's done nothing to deserve such treatment. How are either of these good counter-examples?

[Tiger Al 0]

In this case Al, there is an absolute and universal truth. People die. God is the giver of life and all people die at some time. Some people die at an early age others live very long lives. Your attempt to make the suffering of this family a political statement against the right is pathetic.

Then, why the uproar over abortion or Terri Schiavo?

158532[/snapback]

Is this a serious question? Abortion and the Schiavo case are situations where people are taking it upon themselves to end the life of someone who's done nothing to deserve such treatment. How are either of these good counter-examples?

158545[/snapback]

Because, if "people die", as Mike asserted, is the basis on which we judge life's value, then why do we pick and choose which lives are worth "fighting" for? My point to which Mike was responding was that if you're truly pro-life, meaning you're in favor of life over death always, then when a 13 year old girl chooses abortion or a hospital decides to pull life support or an inmate is executed, you are equally saddened because life lost out over death. If you are outraged about Schiavo, then why not about Knya, if you are pro-LIFE?

But, as I said before, it isn't that republicans are pro-life as they claim, as much as they're anti-choice. They'll flock to Florida to stop a husband from fulfilling what he thought his wife's wishes were, but not a peep out of Texas where hospital boards are almost routinely giving people 8 days to move their loved one before the hospital does what Michael Schiavo did.

[TexasTiger 12,964]

I will state the FACT, once again loud and proud....."liberals, Nature's idiots"

158521[/snapback]

"War Tim, nature's proudest, loudest idiot."

[WarTim 3,456]

Very snappy and well thought out comeback! How long did it take you and your mother to come up with that one?

[Tigermike 3,041]

In this case Al, there is an absolute and universal truth. People die. God is the giver of life and all people die at some time. Some people die at an early age others live very long lives. Your attempt to make the suffering of this family a political statement against the right is pathetic.

Then, why the uproar over abortion or Terri Schiavo?

158532[/snapback]

Al you are not that shallow or callous. You know the difference I'm sure.

Do people die Al? Everyday? Every hour? Every minute? Can you truly not see the difference. Attempting to make the vacuuming of unborn babies from a woman's womb and a child dieing of cancer an indictment on the pro life movement is not only ludicrous, but is beneath you. Not beneath most libs and the DNC, but beneath you.

[Tigermike 3,041]

In this case Al, there is an absolute and universal truth. People die. God is the giver of life and all people die at some time. Some people die at an early age others live very long lives. Your attempt to make the suffering of this family a political statement against the right is pathetic.

Then, why the uproar over abortion or Terri Schiavo?

158532[/snapback]

Is this a serious question? Abortion and the Schiavo case are situations where people are taking it upon themselves to end the life of someone who's done nothing to deserve such treatment. How are either of these good counter-examples?

158545[/snapback]

Because, if "people die", as Mike asserted, is the basis on which we judge life's value, then why do we pick and choose which lives are worth "fighting" for? My point to which Mike was responding was that if you're truly pro-life, meaning you're in favor of life over death always, then when a 13 year old girl chooses abortion or a hospital decides to pull life support or an inmate is executed, you are equally saddened because life lost out over death. If you are outraged about Schiavo, then why not about Knya, if you are pro-LIFE?

But, as I said before, it isn't that republicans are pro-life as they claim, as much as they're anti-choice. They'll flock to Florida to stop a husband from fulfilling what he thought his wife's wishes were, but not a peep out of Texas where hospital boards are almost routinely giving people 8 days to move their loved one before the hospital does what Michael Schiavo did.

158550[/snapback]

Nice try Al, but the fact that "people die" is not the basis on which we judge life's value. No one is saying that this child's life is not worth fighting for, I do believe that the hospital has fought for months to save it haven't they? The FACT is that this child would/could NEVER get better! In fact, if the truth be known, you and the libs are probably mad only because the Republicans did not fight in this case. Then you could point your self righteous fingers at the Republicans for their disregard for the suffering of the child.

Being pro-life does not mean "you are equally saddened because life lost out over death". I don't think you are so simplistic that you even believe that statement.

Since you and the libes rejoiced over the Schiavo situation, why not rejoice over this situation?

But, as I said before, liberals and democrats would rather climb a tree and twist the truth and lie than stand on the ground and tell the truth.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

ONCE AGAIN, for the slow ones among us...

There is NO COMPARISON between a child that is DYING no matter what anyone did or didn't do, AND (1) a person like Schiavo who could have continued to "live" (if you want to use a simplistic definition of life) or (2) a baby that is fully viable and healthy and would otherwise live if not for an abortion.

There was NOTHING that anyone could do to save Knya. The hospital had been fighting since the day that child was born to try and halt the progression of the disease. But at some point, you have done all you can do and there isn't anything else to do, but let someone go, ESPECIALLY if they are in horrible pain. I am pro-life, but in this case, and others like it, when you have a dying person, that is God's will too. PEOPLE DIE and there is nothing anyone can do to stop that.

Teri Schiavo wasn't dying - she was still alive, and the feeding tube was keeping her like that and would have continued to do so in perpetuity. That fight for life, as you put it, was truly a life that could be saved - the discussion was about whether or not a person's wishes should be followed, and if indeed that person actually made those wishes known.

So I see no conflict in pro-life conservatives standing up for Teri Schiavo but not getting involved in a situation where someone is already dying without anyone's help. I also see no conflict in a pro-life conservative supporting the death penalty - usually when someone is on death row, it is because they removed the "right to life" from someone else, usually in an especially heinous manner, and therefore, in my mind, they have forfeited their own right to life.

Stop trying to compare the two in an effort to simply bash the right. This is a stretch, even for you, Al.

And as an aside, you know, it figures that you would be smart ass enough to criticize me for calling the baby "it" - I even debated about the term when I made my original post, but I mistakenly thought you would be adult enough to figure that maybe I had a reason - and I did. I was saying "it" because one story said the baby was a little boy and one story said the baby was a little girl, and I didn't know which was right. The news last night showed a picture of HER in a pink dress and that answered the question. Until then, I had no official clue.

[Piglet 0]

Ah Jenny, you're giving me some hope for the American Right. That post actually made a lot of sense, thank you.

If I'm still troubled about this case, it's because I don't see info about how far along the child was in inexorably dying, and how long they expected it to last with or without artificial life-prolonging measures.

In any case, it seems to me that in a tough call, the decision on whether to continue support should be made by the parent or legal guardian, not by the government or the for-profit hospital.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

Ah Jenny, you're giving me some hope for the American Right.  That post actually made a lot of sense, thank you.

If I'm still troubled about this case, it's because I don't see info about how far along the child was in inexorably dying, and how long they expected it to last with or without artificial life-prolonging measures.

In any case, it seems to me that in a tough call, the decision on whether to continue support should be made by the parent or legal guardian, not by the government or the for-profit hospital.

158661[/snapback]

Thank you, Piglet. Much to the surprise of many on here, I am not a knee jerk conservative - I was actually on the husband's side in the Teri Schiavo case, as I would NEVER want a government or a court to interfere if I make my wishes known. If the family had won, then even if I made damn sure that half the world knew my wishes, some freak like Randall Terry could file suit to stop someone from carrying out my wishes, and might even succeed in doing so. THAT scares the hell out of me. I feel sorry for them, and I am sure that no one will ever get the whole story, but government interference in a personal matter was a serious issue for me.

As for the child in Houston, here's some additional information: Link

Knya Dismuke-Howard's case dates to early December, when Memorial Hermann diagnosed the then 5-week-old with leukemia, the most common cancer in older children but extremely rare in infants. She received treatment at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center but shuttled back and forth to Memorial Hermann because M.D. Anderson's intensive care unit only accepts children 3 and older.

The survival rate for infant leukemia is 50 percent, but it drops to 5 percent if the patient relapses, and significantly less than that once complications occur. Infant patients tolerate chemotherapy reasonably well, as long as the dosage is adjusted for their size, said an M.D. Anderson doctor.

In the last month, Knya Dismuke-Howard's leukemia relapsed and complications set in, such as the brain tumor, bacteria-resistant infection and multiple-organ failure. Her white blood cell count dropped to zero.

Memorial Hermann's ethics committee met Thursday and decided further care would be futile. They plan to discontinue treatment except for pain relief May 8.

"Knya's story is a sad one for everyone who cares for her," Memorial Hermann said in a statement. "The committee has determined that curative treatment is no longer appropriate given the specific facts of the case."

See, once again, this whole thing was blown out of proportion - they stopped treating her because there was nothing they could do. They did not let her suffer as she was on pain meds the whole time. Then she died on her own. Guess God didn't want to let this turn into another media circus.

[TexasTiger 12,964]

Very snappy and well thought out comeback! How long did it take you and your mother to come up with that one?

158616[/snapback]

You should've heard what mom wanted to say! I was actually a moderating influence.

[AURaptor 1,125]

How can you even compare this to Shiavos case ?

6-month-old girl whose leukemia has spread to her brain.

Don't you get it ? The Cult of Death has won. There's no sense in anyone trying to defend life any more.

[WarTim 3,456]

Very snappy and well thought out comeback! How long did it take you and your mother to come up with that one?

158616[/snapback]

You should've heard what mom wanted to say! I was actually a moderating influence.

I honestly do not think that anything mommy pig could come up with would shock me at all.

With libs, it is always the same old sad failed "stuff".