Minneapolis police kill unresisting black man

[alexava 6,973]

8 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I think the bad cop was charged and arrested before a decent amount of the destruction of businesses and stealing occurred. The arrest didn’t seem to stop it at all. 

That’s about when it ramped up. It would be nice to see the other three cops charged with something. I don’t think that will help either. 

[savorytiger 182]

28 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I think the bad cop was charged and arrested before a decent amount of the destruction of businesses and stealing occurred. The arrest didn’t seem to stop it at all. 

The murder happened on Monday last week.  Protests started on Tuesday as all 4 officers involved incident were fired.  Things started escalating (both rioting and police response) Wednesday.  Chauvin wasn't arrested until Friday.

[AURex 1,998]

Moreover, the arrest charge of murder in the 3rd degree is absolutely a butt kiss to the killer cop. Here ia an analysis of the criminal complaint by the prosecutor's office in this case. Just like under the "leadership" of Kobuchar, the prosecutors office is setting this up to receive the lightest possible result for this killer cop and his brutal buddies.

Ex-prosecutor: Complaint against Minnesota cop in George Floyd case drops important clues

     The criminal complaint charging former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter for the death of George Floyd offers key clues about the Hennepin County Attorney's Office's approach to the enormously high-stakes prosecution that will unfold over the coming months.

     While the complaint sets forth a strong case, it also raises questions about the prosecutors' tactical approach and commitment to seeking a full measure of justice for Floyd's tragic death.

A complaint is, essentially, a preliminary summary of evidence that prosecutors use to lodge a criminal charge and make an arrest. It is a crucial legal document but it is not final or definitive. The complaint does not necessarily set forth everything that prosecutors know now, or will learn as the investigation progresses.

     I've written and approved thousands of complaints as a prosecutor, and I've learned to pick up on the indicators, overt and subtle, contained within. Every word in a complaint matters -- particularly here, where the statement of probable cause runs less than two narrative pages, and where the prosecutors know full well the entire nation is watching.

First, the lead charge itself -- third-degree murder -- is light, given the facts. Third-degree murder carries a maximum penalty of 25 years, and requires proof that the defendant committed an act "eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." In other words, prosecutors must show that Chauvin acted recklessly and dangerously, without necessarily intending to kill Floyd.

     But prosecutors could have charged (and still could eventually charge) Chauvin with more serious second-degree murder, which carries a potential 40-year sentence and requires proof that the defendant intentionally killed the victim, without premeditation. The evidence seems sufficient to support such a charge -- particularly given the astonishing length of time that Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck (more on this below). But prosecutors sometimes tend to be conservative in initial charges; keep an eye on whether they add the more serious second-degree charge as the case progresses.

     Overall, the complaint lays out a devastating case against Chauvin -- though it adds little to the cellphone video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck. The most compelling part of the complaint is the timeline. It notes that Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds. Even more damning, the complaint notes that Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for three full minutes after Floyd stopped moving and nearly two minutes after he apparently "ceas[ed] to breathe or speak." Another officer even checked Floyd's wrist for a pulse and said he couldn't find one -- and yet Chauvin still did not immediately move. Those facts alone could establish the intentional conduct necessary for a second-degree murder charge.

     But the complaint also contains several warning signs that raise questions about the prosecutors' tactics and commitment to achieving full justice.

The complaint fails to note that Floyd stated "Don't kill me" and "I'm about to die." The complaint notes that, as Chauvin pressed his knee into Floyd's neck, Floyd stated "I can't breathe," "mama," and "please." Yet the prosecutors inexplicably omit some of the most important lines Floyd uttered in the video: "Don't kill me," and "I'm about to die." Floyd's statements are particularly crucial because they unequivocally put Chauvin on notice that Floyd was in mortal danger -- yet Chauvin continued kneeling on his neck. Why would prosecutors leave out the clearest and most legally pivotal statements made by Floyd?

     The complaint notes that Floyd "actively resisted being handcuffed." Prosecutors have an obligation to disclose evidence that is potentially helpful to the defendant. But the detail about Floyd "actively resist[ing]" is irrelevant. What matters is not what Floyd did before he was handcuffed; what matters is what Chauvin did to Floyd after he was cuffed (rear-cuffed, no less) and debilitated. The inclusion of this detail raises questions about the prosecutors' approach.      Why include this? Are they trying to harm public perception of Floyd? Are they doing a subtle (and gratuitous) favor to Chauvin's defense?

     The complaint specifies that Floyd "is over six feet tall and weighs more than 200 pounds." Again, the inclusion of this extraneous detail is curious. Why do the prosecutors go out of their way to specify Floyd's bodily measurements? What's the relevance? The implication seems to be that Floyd was a large man and hence was somehow scary or difficult to restrain. So what? He was unarmed, rear-cuffed, sprawled out on the street, and outnumbered four to one by police officers.

     The complaint states that the autopsy "revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation." This notation seems baffling at first glance, given the crystal-clear video of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck. But the lack of "physical findings" by no means rules out the possibility that the victim died of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. In other words, a person can die of asphyxiation with or without "physical findings."The complaint is based on "preliminary findings" from the autopsy, so we await the full report, which should follow soon.

     The complaint notes that "the combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death." "Restrained" is a charitable way to describe what Chauvin did to Floyd on video; most would call that something closer to "crushed" or at least "pinned down." And in my 14 years as a prosecutor (or my 45 years of life), I've never heard of a "potential intoxicant." Did Floyd have intoxicants in his system or not? A basic toxicology test should answer that question conclusively, and there is no excuse for prosecutors to not know the answer, or to state it ambiguously, four days after Floyd's death. In any event, even if intoxicants and health conditions somehow contributed to Floyd's death, it does not matter legally. So long as Chauvin's actions were even a contributory cause of Floyd's death, then Chauvin is legally responsible. If Floyd would be alive if not for Chauvin's actions, then Chauvin can be convicted.

     This remains a strong case overall, particularly for the conservative third-degree murder charge that prosecutors have lodged. The video remains a devastating Exhibit A, and the complaint lays out a compelling timeline. But it's hard to ignore the prosecutors' inclusion of many irrelevant and ambiguous detours in the criminal complaint that could potentially detract from the charges brought against Chauvin.

[Gowebb11 9,321]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

I think the bad cop was charged and arrested before a decent amount of the destruction of businesses and stealing occurred. The arrest didn’t seem to stop it at all. 

My opinion was the the protests themselves might not have happened, or happened to a lesser extent if an arrest happened sooner. Just my opinion. Once something that big ignites, there is little that can be done to rein it in. 

[bigbird 60,525]

20 minutes ago, AURex said:

But prosecutors could have charged (and still could eventually charge) Chauvin with more serious second-degree murder, which carries a potential 40-year sentence and requires proof that the defendant intentionally killed the victim, without premeditation. The evidence seems sufficient to support such a charge -- particularly given the astonishing length of time that Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck (more on this below).

Even with the extended and unnecessary period of kneeling on his neck the iIntentionality in this case would be very difficult to prove. I support a higher charge and I think the best way to approach it is through the recklessness of the officer. 

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

5 hours ago, alexava said:

I’m going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I’m gonna be very consistent or inconsistent. You can decide. In Charlotte a couple years ago we lambasted Trump. Me included. For saying there are “very fine people “ protesting with Nazis. We claimed if you rally with Nazis you’re a damn Nazi. I stand by that. It goes both ways though. I don’t know what percentage of protesters are just attending the riots and watching the bad guys set fires and destroy property and attack innocents. If you are going to continue to be a part of that, you can’t be too damn good yourself. It’s gone too damn far. 

There is a ton of inconsistency going on right now. You have people stating that white people are ignoring the issue then you get black leaders saying white folk and other POC's need to stay away they are endangering black lives. Pissed my GF off badly cause the death they are talking about in Austin was half black and half Hispanic. This shifting of the blame is the maddest I have ever seen her. She was going this impacts my family and my people also. Videos of last night show no race was innocent:

Quote

Moore said other people of color and white people have co-opted this current moment in Austin. 

“White people have colonized the black anger and the black movement in this particular time frame and have used black pain and black outrage to just completely become anarchists in this moment,” he said.

https://www.kut.org/post/officers-use-tear-gas-and-smoke-get-demonstrators-protesting-police-killings-i-35

Quote

In Oakland, Cat Brooks, co-founder of the Anti Police-Terror Project, wrote on Twitter: “White people DONT get to use Black pain to justify living out your riot fantasies.” 

Brooks told the Guardian she was not against property destruction, but said she was worried about “black and brown bodies that get funneled into jails based on white people’s actions. 

“If a black person decides ‘I’m going to set this building on fire’ … it’s self-determination,” she said. “But I don’t want a black person to be threatened with arrest over a riot because some white people decided to do whatever the **** they wanted.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/detroit-protests-george-floyd-tensions

Seen the same idea from other cities. Then though, people post pictures of 20 something year old white kids on a patio drinking beer and they are called the problem, their information should be found and slandered on the internet, and people advocating violence against them. Just cause they didn't go to a protest doesn't mean they don't care and deserve to be harmed.

This is where equality/solidarity kicks in. You want whites and other POC's doing something then you let them stand with you in protest. Don't adjust the rules based on color. It is a two way street, a black person doing something at a protest can endanger a white/brown/yellow just like them doing something can endanger a black person. That is the risk. Don't ask people to join your fight and then segregate it when it is convenient or an advantage. I've watched live feeds from Chicago and Austin and police aren't discriminating with arrest, rubber bullets, etc.

To me it is sad that the other stuff is taking away from Mr. Floyd and what happened to him. Nobody should have to worry about their safety from those that are suppose to protect and serve. Unfortunately his name is now being removed and and news stations are just listing it as riots and violent protests.

I hope something good comes out of this and the a**holes don't destroy what is important. It is good to see though that parts of Chicago are settling tonight, there is a large group being escorted by police and stating their message. But none of them are engaging the police that are escorting them and the police aren't engaging them. It is exactly as it should be. Hoping they accomplish what they are trying to do and bring the message back to Floyd.

Though unfortunately they are shooting at police in the area where my mom lives.

[AUDub 11,148]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

Even with the extended and unnecessary period of kneeling on his neck the iIntentionality in this case would be very difficult to prove. I support a higher charge and I think the best way to approach it is through the recklessness of the officer. 

Recklessness tops out at murder 3 in Minnesota, therefore best the prosecution can do.

You want a higher charge, intent is what you have to argue. 

[bigbird 60,525]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

You want a higher charge, intent is what you have to argue. 

And it will be almost impossible.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

A good point was just brought up.  Why haven't the other three officers been arrested at all?  People are arrested every day on probable cause without an actual charge.  Maddening that the same statute isn't being applied, especially when the Minneapolis Police Chief has already called those officers complicit in the death of George Floyd for doing nothing.

[cole256 17,066]

15 hours ago, creed said:

There is no justification for what the cop did based on what I've seen. His day will come. There is no justification for the destruction and looting of property based on what I've seen. Those looting and destroying day will come. 

Some folks need to study Ghandi and how he approached civil rights. 

Just look at history.....this country literally wouldn't be here taking that approach. Then on the other hand look at blacks and the native Americans.....damn near eradicated doing that turn the other cheek philosophy. 

It's always easier to tell somebody what they should do after getting kicked in the face opposed to having to feel the pain yourself

[cole256 17,066]

7 hours ago, alexava said:

The root cause is irrelevant when buildings are burning and firefighters are being attacked. Store owners are being beaten with 2x4s for trying to protect their property....it goes on.  

No the root cause isn't irrelevant, you've ALWAYS been good to point out that one anomoly and speak on it. So there's no confusion I could say there's many saying racist things on Facebook guarantee you're going to come behind and say I didn't see it.....maybe you should try that in this situation to remain consistent. I wonder how many store owners have actually been beaten.

But hey all through out history there's been people suffering when going against the status quo. I imagine most of the black people would love to hear white people say damage to a few buildings is irrelevant when innocent men of color are being killed for no reason in broad daylight

[alexava 6,973]

2 minutes ago, cole256 said:

No the root cause isn't irrelevant, you've ALWAYS been good to point out that one anomoly and speak on it. So there's no confusion I could say there's many saying racist things on Facebook guarantee you're going to come behind and say I didn't see it.....maybe you should try that in this situation to remain consistent. I wonder how many store owners have actually been beaten.

But hey all through out history there's been people suffering when going against the status quo. I imagine most of the black people would love to hear white people say damage to a few buildings is irrelevant when innocent men of color are being killed for no reason in broad daylight

Are you burning buildings? Are you destroying cars. Are you attacking people who are trying to protect their property? Hell no you’re not. Why not?

[alexava 6,973]

9 minutes ago, cole256 said:

No the root cause isn't irrelevant, you've ALWAYS been good to point out that one anomoly and speak on it. So there's no confusion I could say there's many saying racist things on Facebook guarantee you're going to come behind and say I didn't see it.....maybe you should try that in this situation to remain consistent. I wonder how many store owners have actually been beaten.

But hey all through out history there's been people suffering when going against the status quo. I imagine most of the black people would love to hear white people say damage to a few buildings is irrelevant when innocent men of color are being killed for no reason in broad daylight

Anomaly.... That’s ******* ironic. 

[cole256 17,066]

1 minute ago, alexava said:

Are you burning buildings? Are you destroying cars. Are you attacking people who are trying to protect their property? Hell no you’re not. Why not?

Because I'm in Texas and I'd be shot and they would dig around and find my posts on this forum and justify killing me. 

I'm not burning buildings because the man wasn't in my community or part of my family so I haven't been pushed to the edge. Every day I get closer though, get closer to really punching some of these smug hide behind your privilege men right in their face. I'm more like Malcolm x was in his approach. I can go toe to toe with people intellectually.....but I'll defend myself and my loves ones by any means necessary. I'm not turning the cheek. I'm not trying to shake hands with people that are wanting to kill me. I'm not stupid either, you won't have my face on video making it easy to lock me up and kill me

[cole256 17,066]

1 minute ago, alexava said:

Anomaly.... That’s ******* ironic. 

It's what you have always done as far as interacting with me. Whatever it takes to get away from the point. Then make a post about me trying to joke or whatever. It's your thing. I could say recently in North Alabama the police have been showing inequality to blacks as opposed whites......you'll be there in a jiffy....I've never saw a policeman do anything wrong. We had these arguments with the trayvon Martin case in the past

[alexava 6,973]

32 minutes ago, cole256 said:

It's what you have always done as far as interacting with me. Whatever it takes to get away from the point. Then make a post about me trying to joke or whatever. It's your thing. I could say recently in North Alabama the police have been showing inequality to blacks as opposed whites......you'll be there in a jiffy....I've never saw a policeman do anything wrong. We had these arguments with the trayvon Martin case in the past

Man I just hope everything gets better soon. We have different experiences. I have come off wrong with you before and I gotta work on me. This has you stressed and I respect that, so I’m not going to argue those past arguments. But I’ll say this, the reason you are not setting car fires, burning buildings and businesses, attacking innocent people and stealing TVs is you are a better man than that. The people doing it are simply not good people.and yes many of them are white. 

[bigbird 60,525]

3 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

A good point was just brought up.  Why haven't the other three officers been arrested at all?  People are arrested every day on probable cause without an actual charge.  Maddening that the same statute isn't being applied, especially when the Minneapolis Police Chief has already called those officers complicit in the death of George Floyd for doing nothing.

I'm not saying it's gonna happen (if not, that's pitiful) but with the policeman's union, they will have to make sure every thing is in perfect, incontrovertible standing before acting on the others. That's unfortunate for the timeline but I rather be a little slow and nail them to the wall than let something allow them off. I hope that is the case with the slow approach

[homersapien 11,373]

8 hours ago, bigbird said:

And it will be almost impossible.

Not so sure.  Intent is pretty much implicit consider the details and duration of the incident, which is after all, recorded on video.  It's not like it happened instantly.

Might be a big  risk for the prosecution to go that route though if there no fallback position.

 

[bigbird 60,525]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Not so sure.  Intent is pretty much implicit consider the details and duration of the incident, which is after all, recorded on video.  It's not like it happened instantly.

Might be a big  risk for the prosecution to go that route though if there no fallback position.

 

I get it, but think in order to prove intent to murder, one would have to establish malice and without that there would be too much available for a defender to manipulate in their favor.

To be clear, I think he deserves the higher charge. I'm just honestly skeptical they could successfully secure the conviction, especially if there was to be a change of venue.

[AUDub 11,148]

LOL this thread 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Might be a big  risk for the prosecution to go that route though if there no fallback position.

That's what keeps happening in these situations. They go for the charge that common sense dictates, but not the one the letter of the law does. And when it comes to non-black people murdering black people, that's never gone the plaintiff's way. 

Which is the point, I know. But putting this a**hole in gen pop in a real prison for any significant length of time would be progress. 

Also- and apologies if already discussed- but is it possible to bridge the gap, so to speak, with max sentencing? 

[creed 1,635]

This guy gets it.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/former-president-barack-obama-puts-guidelines-amid-george-144700132--abc-news-topstories.html

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

That's what keeps happening in these situations. They go for the charge that common sense dictates, but not the one the letter of the law does. And when it comes to non-black people murdering black people, that's never gone the plaintiff's way. 

Which is the point, I know. But putting this a**hole in gen pop in a real prison for any significant length of time would be progress. 

Also- and apologies if already discussed- but is it possible to bridge the gap, so to speak, with max sentencing? 

Don't they try and stack charges sometimes to lengthen stays? You know where see those guys sentenced for like 125 years total.

They did actually convict and execute a white supremacist in Texas for murder of a black man. Like you said though the common sense and the letter of the law have to line up for success.

[AUDub 11,148]

 

AG Steve Marshall responded to Mayor Woodfin's promise to the protesters that the city would be removing the monument. Birmingham will be fined 25,000.

This is a win. Marshall is capitulating. The law requires he do something, and what he is saying is he will do the bare minimum. Down it comes.

[AUDub 11,148]

Welp.