Minneapolis police kill unresisting black man

[Gowebb11 9,328]

6 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

"That policy"? They were talking technique when needed. Point is that if they have to use that procedure to get the person on their feet asap after they are controlled.

 

Ok, procedure not policy. I would love to have a police officer explain how having a knee in someone’s neck while that person is prone helps get them to their feet. 

[cole256 17,084]

16 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

The CDC reports police brutality is down over recent years. There were 9 unarmed black men shot and killed by police in the US last year. There were 19 unarmed white men shot and killed by police last year. How many blacks were shot and killed by other blacks in Chicago last year? Which is the biggest problem for the black community? Do those blacks value other black lives? The Civil War was indeed largely fought to free slaves. What other country has ever done that? I agree many people did hate MLK, but through peaceful protests he led very positive racial change in this country. How can anyone say we value life in this country today based on the number of abortions people elect to have? Nobody has a problem calling out the police brutality that occurred in MN and 99.9% of this country support the full prosecution of the police in this case. Most people understand we have a tiered justice system in the US and want it to change. It is biased against blacks and biased against those who don’t have money. I don’t see people having a problem calling this out in this country at all. Thankfully the current administration pushed for and has finally gotten some criminal justice reform. I am white. However, My wife and my children and I are considered a member of a black family in town by that family. We named our youngest after a black woman in that family and we sat in the family section during her funeral and we spoke at her funeral. So I don’t need a lecture about how much I care about blacks. Our culture in the US needs to change. We need more couples sticking together and raising children together and less single mothers. We need church attendance increasing instead of decreasing. We need less abortions instead of more. We need less killing mentioned in music and on video games and on TV. We need more personal responsibility. We need more people valuing education. As long as our culture continues down a path that shows these key indicators going in the wrong direction we are going to have these type of issues.

 

 

Gtfoh with that nonsense. First of all it's stupid to think that an accurate metric would be kept of police brutality. Even with this incident here they wrote in their report that Floyd was resisting. We saw when they shot the man in his back in South Carolina he wrote that the guy was attacking him. Second there is 7 times the population of white people to black people of course there will be more white people killed but to try to skew numbers and be deceiving is absolutely repugnant. And please show me what race largest numbers of death isn't their own race. Anybody with a brain knows crime will happen in the community where you stay. And also the more poverty the more crime....you think there's a bunch of crime in an affluent neighborhood in Atlanta where well off black people live? You think there's high numbers of crime amongst each other there? No the civil war was not fought to free slaves. That's not true. 

Does all lives matter when a kid go shoots up the movie theater? If you think video games or music has anything to do with people killing you're completely out of touch with what's going on but you think you know. And please don't try to pretend that everybody just agree about this....it was just caught on video very well. There was another black man killed in the same manner a few years ago and many of the people on this forum didn't have a problem with it. 99.9 don't have a problem calling out police brutality! You must have gotten that number from your other statistics. 

Your administration cursed a man out and his mother for leading a peaceful protest and riled people up to physically harm citizens and now you all talk about peaceful protesters....white people didn't protest for their justice they killed for it then want to sit back and judge minorities. Try to blame things on rapvideos but refuse to acknowledge the generational wealth that came from work of slaves and land and things like that doesn't matter. You're right about one thing though we do need more personal responsibility. 

I grew up being the only black in so called Christian schools, I grew up in poverty while watching how well the other kids had it. I even work in an industry now dominated by white people and see and hear what is really thought and said....I don't need a lecture about anything what's needed is instead of old white men telling everybody what the problems are they need to sit down and listen and learn. Hell a couple of weeks ago many was saying this didn't even exist and all the black people are lying and playing a card...The constant killing of black people by policemen has NOTHING to do with any of the things you mentioned the way you try to make excuses and blame black people for it has EVERYTHING to do with it

[cole256 17,084]

25 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

I’m not saying it’s right. I’m saying that’s the way it is in the law enforcement profession. 

I'm not saying you are saying it's right and I know how it goes but responding to those other comments I'm pointing out how other people in society has to be accountable so they should as well and they shouldn't get cut any slack

[wdefromtx 3,159]

7 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I'm not saying you are saying it's right and I know how it goes but responding to those other comments I'm pointing out how other people in society has to be accountable so they should as well and they shouldn't get cut any slack

10-4 and Agree, and it’s going to take a sweeping change in their professional culture to make it happen. One that should have never existed, hopefully there’s enough pressure in society to get people’s head out of the sand this time. Turning a blind eye or making excuses to marginalize the problem is the same as endorsing it in my opinion. 

[SocialCircle 570]

32 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Gtfoh with that nonsense. First of all it's stupid to think that an accurate metric would be kept of police brutality. Even with this incident here they wrote in their report that Floyd was resisting. We saw when they shot the man in his back in South Carolina he wrote that the guy was attacking him. Second there is 7 times the population of white people to black people of course there will be more white people killed but to try to skew numbers and be deceiving is absolutely repugnant. And please show me what race largest numbers of death isn't their own race. Anybody with a brain knows crime will happen in the community where you stay. And also the more poverty the more crime....you think there's a bunch of crime in an affluent neighborhood in Atlanta where well off black people live? You think there's high numbers of crime amongst each other there? No the civil war was not fought to free slaves. That's not true. 

Does all lives matter when a kid go shoots up the movie theater? If you think video games or music has anything to do with people killing you're completely out of touch with what's going on but you think you know. And please don't try to pretend that everybody just agree about this....it was just caught on video very well. There was another black man killed in the same manner a few years ago and many of the people on this forum didn't have a problem with it. 99.9 don't have a problem calling out police brutality! You must have gotten that number from your other statistics. 

Your administration cursed a man out and his mother for leading a peaceful protest and riled people up to physically harm citizens and now you all talk about peaceful protesters....white people didn't protest for their justice they killed for it then want to sit back and judge minorities. Try to blame things on rapvideos but refuse to acknowledge the generational wealth that came from work of slaves and land and things like that doesn't matter. You're right about one thing though we do need more personal responsibility. 

I grew up being the only black in so called Christian schools, I grew up in poverty while watching how well the other kids had it. I even work in an industry now dominated by white people and see and hear what is really thought and said....I don't need a lecture about anything what's needed is instead of old white men telling everybody what the problems are they need to sit down and listen and learn. Hell a couple of weeks ago many was saying this didn't even exist and all the black people are lying and playing a card...The constant killing of black people by policemen has NOTHING to do with any of the things you mentioned the way you try to make excuses and blame black people for it has EVERYTHING to do with it

There isn’t constant killing of black people by police. There is some and even one is too many. There is actually much more killing of black people by other black people. And there are even more abortions people elect to have that kill black babies at a disproportionately high rate. You see I do believe all black lives matter. I’m not making any excuses whatsoever. The police who committed that murder needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Everybody I know absolutely agrees with that and has agreed with it from the start. We need more criminal justice reform. Our culture also needs to change as I mentioned. I agree with you also that poverty has something to do with it too. Under this administration for the first time in a long, long time wages were actually increasing at a good clip for middle and low wage earners and there were more jobs than people. There have been opportunity zones created to help decrease poverty in many mostly black inner cities under this administration as well. 

[cole256 17,084]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

There isn’t constant killing of black people by police. There is some and even one is too many. There is actually much more killing of black people by other black people. And there are even more abortions people elect to have that kill black babies at a disproportionately high rate. You see I do believe all black lives matter. I’m not making any excuses whatsoever. The police who committed that murder needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Everybody I know absolutely agrees with that and has agreed with it from the start. We need more criminal justice reform. Our culture also needs to change as I mentioned. I agree with you also that poverty has something to do with it too. Under this administration for the first time in a long, long time wages were actually increasing at a good clip for middle and low wage earners and there were more jobs than people. There have been opportunity zones created to help decrease poverty in many mostly black inner cities under this administration as well. 

There's much more white people killed by white people than by police. Than by terrorist as well.

When any of those schools were shot up  how many times did you wonder about white on white crime or abortions? But please I'm dead serious if you want to talk Trump go find somebody else to talk to.

You 're not interested at all in trying to help or even understanding a problem we just have to wait for the generations after you

[SocialCircle 570]

14 minutes ago, cole256 said:

There's much more white people killed by white people than by police. Than by terrorist as well.

When any of those schools were shot up  how many times did you wonder about white on white crime or abortions? But please I'm dead serious if you want to talk Trump go find somebody else to talk to.

You 're not interested at all in trying to help or even understanding a problem we just have to wait for the generations after you

I worry about our culture all the time. It is one of my biggest concerns. This includes abortions and mass shootings, etc... I help more than you can believe right here in my local community. You have no idea how much I help and I take great proud in helping and serving my fellow man. 

[cole256 17,084]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

I worry about our culture all the time. It is one of my biggest concerns. This includes abortions and mass shootings, etc... I help more than you can believe right here in my local community. You have no idea how much I help and I take great proud in helping and serving my fellow man. 

You have quoted skewed numbers and when a man is unjustly killed by policemen you brought up abortions and black on black crime......clearly you take great pride in helping black people

[SocialCircle 570]

4 hours ago, cole256 said:

You have quoted skewed numbers and when a man is unjustly killed by policemen you brought up abortions and black on black crime......clearly you take great pride in helping black people

One of my goals in life is to always help my fellow man. My point is it perhaps is more helpful to focus on where more innocent deaths are occurring as that has the potential to save more lives and thus help a larger number of people. Right now the focus is way out of balance as compared to where the most innocent deaths are occurring. These bad cops have been charged and are being prosecuted. Meanwhile, there is little being done or said and very little protest over the innocent babies being aborted and over the killings occurring every week in places like Chicago. Why is that? I’m really curious. 

[DKW 86 7,426]

13 hours ago, cole256 said:

It's crazy how literally have a video of these guys murdering a man and we think they'll get off and they've been overcharged etc. Yet we have black men in jail for 25 years for marijuana and stuff like that. Since when was it hard to go to jail?

Sir, welcome to my world. Since the 1994 Crime Bill, the Three Strikes Bill, we have donme nothing but fill prisons to shove money toward the For-Profit-Prison-Industry. The rest is obvious if you back up. If DJT meant what he has said over and over he would be releasing some of these NON-VIOLENT Black men from prison. Apprently he means it only for about 30 seconds when in front of the right cameras. The 1994 Crime Bill is on Jozo. On some issues he is more of a pathetic joke than Trump, of course now Jozo is tryng to siatance himself from the 94CB. He is talking out his ass about being so racially sensitive when the clear reality is that he could not care less. 

He should be talking a clear overhaul of the 94CB and be very specific. Nonviolent offenders let go etc. folks, 25 years for weed IS STOOPID. It is stupid to waste that much money on incarceration and to waste the lives of good men that did something stupid 25 years ago. If it is nonviolent, fine them and move on. 

[DKW 86 7,426]

8 hours ago, cole256 said:

 I grew up being the only black in so called Christian schools, I grew up in poverty while watching how well the other kids had it. I even work in an industry now dominated by white people and see and hear what is really thought and said....I don't need a lecture about anything what's needed is instead of old white men telling everybody what the problems are they need to sit down and listen and learn. Hell a couple of weeks ago many was saying this didn't even exist and all the black people are lying and playing a card...The constant killing of black people by policemen has NOTHING to do with any of the things you mentioned the way you try to make excuses and blame black people for it has EVERYTHING to do with it

My dealings with racial issues has become intentional. I have to go out and make it happen with my black friends and coworkers. Casual things really dont mean crap. I am still waiting for some white man or woman call out the outrageous differences in sentencing. 

[DKW 86 7,426]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

One of my goals in life is to always help my fellow man. My point is it perhaps is more helpful to focus on where more innocent deaths are occurring as that has the potential to save more lives and thus help a larger number of people. Right now the focus is way out of balance as compared to where the most innocent deaths are occurring. These bad cops have been charged and are being prosecuted. Meanwhile, there is little being done or said and very little protest over the innocent babies being aborted and over the killings occurring every week in places like Chicago. Why is that? I’m really curious. 

I am puzzled by this too. Why are weekly deaths of black men not even news anymore? 

https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html

[cole256 17,084]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

One of my goals in life is to always help my fellow man. My point is it perhaps is more helpful to focus on where more innocent deaths are occurring as that has the potential to save more lives and thus help a larger number of people. Right now the focus is way out of balance as compared to where the most innocent deaths are occurring. These bad cops have been charged and are being prosecuted. Meanwhile, there is little being done or said and very little protest over the innocent babies being aborted and over the killings occurring every week in places like Chicago. Why is that? I’m really curious. 

For one thing things are said the other if you look at numbers it's the same with white people, murder happens more than people being killed by terrorist attacks but since it's white people nobody thought after 9/11 to say well theoretically lost more people to murder this month than to terrorist attacks. 

You speak like what people really think white people really feel, see there's really no value or importance to a black life so you'd speak like that, it doesn't matter being killed by people that are supposed to protect you.....It's look at numbers and let's speak on it like we're talking about cattle or something.....

Why isn't the same done with white people? Why is it there's all the respect in the world for police when they are killing us but treat them as if they don't exist when it comes to stuff like being told to stay in the house? Why do you keep going over the typical Republican agenda even though it doesn't make sense? Why is it you feel that you need to do more talking as opposed to listening? Because you have a black friend?

[DKW 86 7,426]

2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.[59]
Race, ethnicity	% of US population	% of U.S. incarcerated population	% of racial group
White (non-Hispanic)	64	39	0.45
Hispanic	16	19	1.1875
Black	13	40	2.306
Asian	5.6	1.5	0.21

Here is one of several problems we have to address. Unequal outcomes in the judicial branch.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

9 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

Ok, procedure not policy. I would love to have a police officer explain how having a knee in someone’s neck while that person is prone helps get them to their feet. 

Re read what I originally said. The neck was never mentioned in my conversation with the officers. 

[bigbird 60,554]

12 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

2010. Inmates in adult facilities, by race and ethnicity. Jails, and state and federal prisons.[59]
Race, ethnicity	% of US population	% of U.S. incarcerated population	% of racial group
White (non-Hispanic)	64	39	0.45
Hispanic	16	19	1.1875
Black	13	40	2.306
Asian	5.6	1.5	0.21

Here is one of several problems we have to address. Unequal outcomes in the judicial branch.

 

13 hours ago, bigbird said:

Yeah the disparity and discrepancy in sentencing is just one of the things that the justice system needs to scrap and begin new.

Great minds and all that stuff...

[DKW 86 7,426]

3 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Great minds and all that stuff...

Bird, this is first grade simple. We are working on destroying a second generation of Black Males. Lets be conservative and say we have 4% of the Black Male population in prison. As some get out, we imprison more. We maintain 4% of the BM Population in prison over time (since we are being conservative, lets say since 1994, or for 26 years) we may have 10-maybe 15% permanently disenfrachised to vote and certainly damaged chances to ever get a good paying job once released. We have damaged their lives. their marriages, their kids, We have compromised a generation of Black Male income AND damaged a whole generation, soon to be two generations, of Black Community Wealth Creation and Retention...AND the answer is to continue to do this? WTF? Folks most of these arent violent crimes, most are simple possesion charges and non-violent crimes. We are wasting $10BNs to destroy a whole segment of our population, THE LEAST ABLE TO AFFORD TO DEFEND ITSELF. We have to address the outcomes. 

If the crime rates are falling dramatically, violent crime is falling steadily since 1991, how the frick are we still adding more and more people to prisons? Why are we still building prisons? What are we filling prisons with? Non-violent perps that are by and large YBMs.

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 hours ago, cole256 said:

you think there's a bunch of crime in an affluent neighborhood in Atlanta where well off black people live?

Cascade Road, safest area in the city. And you never hear a peep about those folks sitting on their porches with loaded AR-15s just waiting for those thugs from downtown to show up. 

[homersapien 11,385]

16 hours ago, bigbird said:

Maybe you need to refresh your memory of what intent means.

in·tent

/inˈtent/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. intention or purpose.

   "with alarm she realized his intent"

    

1. adjective

    

   1. resolved or determined to do something 

   2. showing earnest and eager attention.

    

    

    

    

    

To convict as a principal of aiding and abetting the commission of a crime, a jury must find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant knowingly and intentionally aided and abetted the principal(s) in each essential element of the crime. United States v. Bancalari, 110 F.3d 1425, 1429 (9th Cir. 1997). The government must prove that the defendant associated with the criminal venture, purposefully participated in the criminal activity, and sought by his actions to make the venture successful. 

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2474-elements-aiding-and-abetting

 

And pray tell, how do you determine their intent other than by their actions?

If they didn't intend to shield their murderous pal from the crowd and they didn't intend to let Chauvin continue to kneel on Floyd's neck without making and effort to intervene - thus aiding him in his actions - then why did they do exactly that?

I get your point about legal requirements, but you act as if the jury needs to presume there was no intent (based on what?). They are not required to presume there was no intent. 

In fact, their actions - as shown by the video - are a greater indicator of their intent than simply guessing. 

Now maybe the defense attorney can convince the Jury they had no intent.  But until they do, I think it's reasonable for a jury to assume they intended to do exactly what they did, until convinced otherwise.  Again, there is no presumption of a lack of intent.

Likewise, Chauvin may not have "intended" to kill that man, but he certainly intended to kneel on his neck until he passed out. Because he did so, even with plenty of time to reconsider.

As for my understanding, I tend to assume people intended to do what they actually did, until convinced otherwise. 

I think that's a reasonable standard.

 

[SocialCircle 570]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

My dealings with racial issues has become intentional. I have to go out and make it happen with my black friends and coworkers. Casual things really dont mean crap. I am still waiting for some white man or woman call out the outrageous differences in sentencing. 

Wait no longer as I called that out earlier in this thread.

[Gowebb11 9,328]

2 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Re read what I originally said. The neck was never mentioned in my conversation with the officers. 

I stand corrected and apologize that I have mis-represented your point. 

[SocialCircle 570]

2 hours ago, cole256 said:

For one thing things are said the other if you look at numbers it's the same with white people, murder happens more than people being killed by terrorist attacks but since it's white people nobody thought after 9/11 to say well theoretically lost more people to murder this month than to terrorist attacks. 

You speak like what people really think white people really feel, see there's really no value or importance to a black life so you'd speak like that, it doesn't matter being killed by people that are supposed to protect you.....It's look at numbers and let's speak on it like we're talking about cattle or something.....

Why isn't the same done with white people? Why is it there's all the respect in the world for police when they are killing us but treat them as if they don't exist when it comes to stuff like being told to stay in the house? Why do you keep going over the typical Republican agenda even though it doesn't make sense? Why is it you feel that you need to do more talking as opposed to listening? Because you have a black friend?

I’ve done lots more listening and studying than I’ve spent talking. I consider myself part of a black family and I consider that family part of mine. I’m chairman of my local school board and I was instrumental in bringing in a superintendent who is black to a system that is 70% white because he was the best man for the job. I helped cut a year off the previous superintendent’s contract who happened to be white in order to bring in the best person for the job. I sat on a panel in our community just a couple of months ago to hire a new police chief. I recommended and we hired a black Chief because he was the best person for the job. My agenda is not Republican or Democrat, but it is to get to the truth. With you this appears to be a one way street. On one hand I have told you I completely support the peaceful protects and I believe the bad cops should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I have also said our criminal justice system is biased against blacks and against those who aren’t wealthy. On the other hand you haven’t acknowledged anything as far as I can tell. You can’t even acknowledge or accept simple facts....like there are actually fewer police shootings now than in the past. You can’t acknowledge there has been some criminal justice reform recently. You haven’t acknowledged the fact that black unemployment got down to historic lows just prior to the pandemic. You haven’t acknowledged opportunity zones in many inner cities. You haven’t acknowledged that prior to the pandemic wages finally increased for low and middle wage earners after years of stagnation or decline. Let’s start by acknowledging facts so it is a two way street.If you are unwilling to accept facts it is hard to continue having a discussion. I wish you luck and hope you are richly blessed.

[bigbird 60,554]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

you act as if the jury needs to presume there was no intent (based on what?). They are not required to presume there was no intent. 

You're correct, they aren't required to presume innocence. The prosecutor is required to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, the intention.

[bigbird 60,554]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

, I think it's reasonable for a jury to assume they intended to do exactly what they did

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of an impartial jury

[homersapien 11,385]

40 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of an impartial jury

No.  Not at all. Perhaps you misunderstood.

To clarify:

I am not saying they go into the trial with a presupposed opinion of intent. 

I am saying that short of evidence to the contrary, it would be perfectly rational for them to assume intent based on the actions of the defendants.

Are you suggesting they should go into the trial with the presumed opinion that there was no intent?