bigbird 60,560 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 38 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said: If someone is choking you out, and I’m sitting on your legs am I not aiding? Not quibbling with you, but I think a good lawyer has plenty to work with. However, the statute states, "A person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime." They didn't advise Chauvin to kneel on Floyd's neck for 8+ minutes even after he was unconscious, they didn't hire Chauvin to kill him, they didn't counsel him on how to murder him, and they didn't all come together before the incident and conspire on murdering Floyd. That only leaves intentionally aiding Chauvin in the murder. I think it almost impossible to prove that the officer holding his legs was doing it for the express purpose to help Chauvin murder Floyd and even more so for the officers standing around. I guess one could try and make the argument that their inaction aided in the ability for him to die, but proving they didn't act with the intention of letting Chauvin murder Floyd would be equally difficult and even more illogical. Also, as for your proposed situation goes, the only way you could be guilty of aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder is if you knew the person choking me out was actually trying to kill me and you continued to hold me down. If you did have prior knowledge of that then it would be premeditated and then the precipitating charge would be murder one. Again, I think they are guilty of a crime, just not the one they have been charged with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,385 Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 13 hours ago, bigbird said: Not trying to be rude, but do you understand what aiding and abetting is? Of course I do. Don't patronize me. The other officers aided and abetted the guilty officer by keeping the crowd away while Floyd was being murdered, period. Apparently, you are considering only the narrow, legal aspects of the term, which I understand also. But it's possible that - in this case - the legal definitions are not precisely determinative - that is, the issue is debatable in a court of law. A good lawyer might convince a jury they were guilty of aiding and abetting and that's all it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdefromtx 3,159 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, bigbird said: However, the statute states, "A person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime." They didn't advise Chauvin to kneel on Floyd's neck for 8+ minutes even after he was unconscious, they didn't hire Chauvin to kill him, they didn't counsel him on how to murder him, and they didn't all come together before the incident and conspire on murdering Floyd. That only leaves intentionally aiding Chauvin in the murder. I think it almost impossible to prove that the officer holding his legs was doing it for the express purpose to help Chauvin murder Floyd and even more so for the officers standing around. I guess one could try and make the argument that their inaction aided in the ability for him to die, but proving they didn't act with the intention of letting Chauvin murder Floyd would be equally difficult and even more illogical. Also, as for your proposed situation goes, the only way you could be guilty of aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder is if you knew the person choking me out was actually trying to kill me and you continued to hold me down. If you did have prior knowledge of that then it would be premeditated and then the precipitating charge would be murder one. Again, I think they are guilty of a crime, just not the one they have been charged with. I think a good defense attorney has a lot of room for reasonable doubt. It’s almost as they wanted to charge the other three so they can say they did, but with charges they know probably won’t stick so they can get off. Now if unintentional aiding and bedding was a thing then they’d have a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird 60,560 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 31 minutes ago, wdefromtx said: I think a good defense attorney has a lot of room for reasonable doubt. It’s almost as they wanted to charge the other three so they can say they did, but with charges they know probably won’t stick so they can get off. Now if unintentional aiding and bedding was a thing then they’d have a case. That's kinda what I though too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_M4_AU 7,853 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 46 minutes ago, wdefromtx said: I think a good defense attorney has a lot of room for reasonable doubt. It’s almost as they wanted to charge the other three so they can say they did, but with charges they know probably won’t stick so they can get off. Now if unintentional aiding and bedding was a thing then they’d have a case. I have a feeling it will be the O.J. Simpson trial in reverse. Those guys are toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexava 6,973 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I think they have overcharged all of them. If they are acquitted we get to go through all this s*** again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,426 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Do BLM? Or do just some BLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,816 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 9 hours ago, Gowebb11 said: That’s interesting, and needs to change in my opinion. I would be curious to know if they have that policy in place for all situations and crimes or just some? Is the misdemeanor arrest for shoplifting treated the same as a felony arrest for armed robbery and is that technique applied uniformly whether or not the suspect is resisting? I hope all of these policies get reviewed as a result of this tragedy. "That policy"? They were talking technique when needed. Point is that if they have to use that procedure to get the person on their feet asap after they are controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,385 Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 7 hours ago, bigbird said: However, the statute states, "A person is criminally liable for a crime committed by another if the person intentionally aids, advises, hires, counsels, or conspires with or otherwise procures the other to commit the crime." They didn't advise Chauvin to kneel on Floyd's neck for 8+ minutes even after he was unconscious, they didn't hire Chauvin to kill him, they didn't counsel him on how to murder him, and they didn't all come together before the incident and conspire on murdering Floyd. That only leaves intentionally aiding Chauvin in the murder. I think it almost impossible to prove that the officer holding his legs was doing it for the express purpose to help Chauvin murder Floyd and even more so for the officers standing around. I guess one could try and make the argument that their inaction aided in the ability for him to die, but proving they didn't act with the intention of letting Chauvin murder Floyd would be equally difficult and even more illogical. Also, as for your proposed situation goes, the only way you could be guilty of aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder is if you knew the person choking me out was actually trying to kill me and you continued to hold me down. If you did have prior knowledge of that then it would be premeditated and then the precipitating charge would be murder one. Again, I think they are guilty of a crime, just not the one they have been charged with. Standing there screening enraged observers from the officer choking Floyd - instead of getting him to stop - sounds pretty much "intentional aiding" to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdefromtx 3,159 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 17 minutes ago, homersapien said: Standing there screening enraged observers from the officer choking Floyd - instead of getting him to stop - sounds pretty much "intentional aiding" to me. There’s a huge open space for the defense to wiggle and plant a ton of reasonable doubt though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexava 6,973 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 24 minutes ago, homersapien said: Standing there screening enraged observers from the officer choking Floyd - instead of getting him to stop - sounds pretty much "intentional aiding" to me. Two of those guys had been on the job 3 and 4 days. Their trainer, Derek Chauvin. I can see cutting those two a little slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,385 Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, alexava said: Two of those guys had been on the job 3 and 4 days. Their trainer, Derek Chauvin. I can see cutting those two a little slack. I didn't know that. So yeah, I can see that. Chauvin was their trainer!!!!! Holy irony! I wonder what was going through their minds at the time? Guess we'll find out in the trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird 60,560 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, homersapien said: Standing there screening enraged observers from the officer choking Floyd - instead of getting him to stop - sounds pretty much "intentional aiding" to me. Maybe you need to refresh your memory of what intent means. in·tent /inˈtent/ Learn to pronounce noun intention or purpose. "with alarm she realized his intent" adjective 1. resolved or determined to do something 2. showing earnest and eager attention. To convict as a principal of aiding and abetting the commission of a crime, a jury must find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant knowingly and intentionally aided and abetted the principal(s) in each essential element of the crime. United States v. Bancalari, 110 F.3d 1425, 1429 (9th Cir. 1997). The government must prove that the defendant associated with the criminal venture, purposefully participated in the criminal activity, and sought by his actions to make the venture successful. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2474-elements-aiding-and-abetting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 It's crazy how literally have a video of these guys murdering a man and we think they'll get off and they've been overcharged etc. Yet we have black men in jail for 25 years for marijuana and stuff like that. Since when was it hard to go to jail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 On 6/2/2020 at 12:03 PM, SocialCircle said: A Civil War was fought largely by whites here in this country and it freed mostly black slaves. MLK Jr. led great change through peaceful protests. The employment percentage and wages for blacks were both indeed increasing in recent years until Covid-19. The trend of all police brutality has actually been trending down....against whites and blacks. There has recently been criminal justice reform. There is no doubt things aren't perfect and together we can always improve more. However, things overall have been improving. I think too many have lost sight of these facts. Much work still needs to be done in the area of our too often tiered justice system. Those with money and power tend to have much better results in our justice system than those without power and money. However, the biggest problem facing us is our culture. There is too little regard for life. There are way too many broken families. There are way too many completely irresponsible people. How do we heal our culture? The civil war wasn't fought to free slaves. MLK led great change and people ABSOLUTELY hated him, and he was assassinated. The trend of police brutality going down is completely made up. You saying people lost sight of that is actually ironic, how would you know that? And why would you feel black people have lost sight of it and please let's be serious here and not call them facts. So we will all have our opinion on what the biggest problem is, and the biggest problem to me is there is absolutely no value for a black life. Then you have systemic racism that's so strong and structured that people now have problems if you even try to call out injustices. Pretty much one team has cheated to win a race and they refuse to stop the race and start off fair and they also refuse to play catch up either.....they have just agreed that if you can make up this huge gap that we've been afforded then we will call you the winner......good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdefromtx 3,159 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 8 minutes ago, cole256 said: It's crazy how literally have a video of these guys murdering a man and we think they'll get off and they've been overcharged etc. Yet we have black men in jail for 25 years for marijuana and stuff like that. Since when was it hard to go to jail? It’s a shame the system is setup like this in the first place and the fact we are worried about them getting off. I don’t think Chauvin will, but the other three I can see it happening. I don’t think they were overcharged from a moral perspective, but from a legal perspective I think a good defense attorney can convince a jury otherwise. Hope I’m wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McLoofus 35,182 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, cole256 said: It's crazy how literally have a video of these guys murdering a man and we think they'll get off and they've been overcharged etc. Yet we have black men in jail for 25 years for marijuana and stuff like that. Since when was it hard to go to jail? You're absolutely right. But it's been hard to put cops away forever. I don't know how to fix that. I can yell and scream and donate to NAACP and ACLU and whoever else. But people do that and it never matters. So I'm left hoping they do what they can to get these mother ****ers behind bars. And that they spend at least a couple years in gen pop in a real prison. Wish I had a better response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird 60,560 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 45 minutes ago, cole256 said: It's crazy how literally have a video of these guys murdering a man and we think they'll get off and they've been overcharged etc. You're absolutely right. To be clear, when I said overcharged it's based on the legal statutes not off their culpability. They absolutely deserve to be punished. 48 minutes ago, cole256 said: Yet we have black men in jail for 25 years for marijuana and stuff like that. Yeah the disparity and discrepancy in sentencing is just one of the things that the justice system needs to scrap and begin new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird 60,560 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 2 hours ago, alexava said: Two of those guys had been on the job 3 and 4 days. Their trainer, Derek Chauvin. I can see cutting those two a little slack. 2 hours ago, homersapien said: I didn't know that. So yeah, I can see that. Chauvin was their trainer!!!!! Holy irony! I wonder what was going through their minds at the time? Guess we'll find out in the trial. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-minneapolis-cop-told-other-officers-you-shouldn-t-do-n1225136 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbird 60,560 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, bigbird said: Maybe you need to refresh your memory of what intent means. in·tent /inˈtent/ Learn to pronounce noun intention or purpose. "with alarm she realized his intent" adjective 1. resolved or determined to do something 2. showing earnest and eager attention. To convict as a principal of aiding and abetting the commission of a crime, a jury must find beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant knowingly and intentionally aided and abetted the principal(s) in each essential element of the crime. United States v. Bancalari, 110 F.3d 1425, 1429 (9th Cir. 1997). The government must prove that the defendant associated with the criminal venture, purposefully participated in the criminal activity, and sought by his actions to make the venture successful. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2474-elements-aiding-and-abetting ICHY, I understand you don't like this post but I'm not sure as to what it is you actually disprove of. Nothing in the post is an opinion. It's literally the dictionary definition of intent and the actual criminal resource manual from the Department of Justice explaining the Elements of Aiding and Abetting and the necessary requirements to convict under aiding and abetting. Sure wish you would explain why those facts disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 3 hours ago, homersapien said: I didn't know that. So yeah, I can see that. Chauvin was their trainer!!!!! Holy irony! I wonder what was going through their minds at the time? Guess we'll find out in the trial. Nah they should be held accountable, as soon as I was at the plant if I was to do a job where my partner didn't tie off or he didn't wear his proper ppe and I was with him even though I'm not qualified to do anything at the plant? I'd lose my job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdefromtx 3,159 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 43 minutes ago, cole256 said: Nah they should be held accountable, as soon as I was at the plant if I was to do a job where my partner didn't tie off or he didn't wear his proper ppe and I was with him even though I'm not qualified to do anything at the plant? I'd lose my job I agree 100%, unfortunately they don’t exactly recognize what a “stop card” is. In fact it’s a culture of turning a blind eye to this type of stuff as well as others. Then you have the unions covering their @$$. If there is any bright side so far I’ve seen in Houston is where the city has recognized that they need to follow through with taking a hard look into the systems in place and make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialCircle 570 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 3 hours ago, cole256 said: The civil war wasn't fought to free slaves. MLK led great change and people ABSOLUTELY hated him, and he was assassinated. The trend of police brutality going down is completely made up. You saying people lost sight of that is actually ironic, how would you know that? And why would you feel black people have lost sight of it and please let's be serious here and not call them facts. So we will all have our opinion on what the biggest problem is, and the biggest problem to me is there is absolutely no value for a black life. Then you have systemic racism that's so strong and structured that people now have problems if you even try to call out injustices. Pretty much one team has cheated to win a race and they refuse to stop the race and start off fair and they also refuse to play catch up either.....they have just agreed that if you can make up this huge gap that we've been afforded then we will call you the winner......good luck! The CDC reports police brutality is down over recent years. There were 9 unarmed black men shot and killed by police in the US last year. There were 19 unarmed white men shot and killed by police last year. How many blacks were shot and killed by other blacks in Chicago last year? Which is the biggest problem for the black community? Do those blacks value other black lives? The Civil War was indeed largely fought to free slaves. What other country has ever done that? I agree many people did hate MLK, but through peaceful protests he led very positive racial change in this country. How can anyone say we value life in this country today based on the number of abortions people elect to have? Nobody has a problem calling out the police brutality that occurred in MN and 99.9% of this country support the full prosecution of the police in this case. Most people understand we have a tiered justice system in the US and want it to change. It is biased against blacks and biased against those who don’t have money. I don’t see people having a problem calling this out in this country at all. Thankfully the current administration pushed for and has finally gotten some criminal justice reform. I am white. However, My wife and my children and I are considered a member of a black family in town by that family. We named our youngest after a black woman in that family and we sat in the family section during her funeral and we spoke at her funeral. So I don’t need a lecture about how much I care about blacks. Our culture in the US needs to change. We need more couples sticking together and raising children together and less single mothers. We need church attendance increasing instead of decreasing. We need less abortions instead of more. We need less killing mentioned in music and on video games and on TV. We need more personal responsibility. We need more people valuing education. As long as our culture continues down a path that shows these key indicators going in the wrong direction we are going to have these type of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, wdefromtx said: I agree 100%, unfortunately they don’t exactly recognize what a “stop card” is. In fact it’s a culture of turning a blind eye to this type of stuff as well as others. Then you have the unions covering their @$$. If there is any bright side so far I’ve seen in Houston is where the city has recognized that they need to follow through with taking a hard look into the systems in place and make changes. Then they shouldn't be policemen. Besides knowing what's right there's a bunch of adrenaline and testosterone pumping. You know something may come up and you have to calm your partner down. Hell we even expect that from these teenage athletes. If somebody gets mad on the field and late hit or something like that people will be on this board calling him a thug, saying he shouldn't be playing for the school, question his character, how he was raised....all of that. So grown men at a profession should get leeway at being scared to say hey man you're going to kill this guy. Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdefromtx 3,159 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 1 minute ago, cole256 said: Then they shouldn't be policemen. Besides knowing what's right there's a bunch of adrenaline and testosterone pumping. You know something may come up and you have to calm your partner down. Hell we even expect that from these teenage athletes. If somebody gets mad on the field and late hit or something like that people will be on this board calling him a thug, saying he shouldn't be playing for the school, question his character, how he was raised....all of that. So grown men at a profession should get leeway at being scared to say hey man you're going to kill this guy. Nope I’m not saying it’s right. I’m saying that’s the way it is in the law enforcement profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.