Minneapolis police kill unresisting black man

[bigbird 60,552]

9 hours ago, homersapien said:

 

In fact, their actions - as shown by the video - are a greater indicator of their intent than simply guessing

I really think you're misunderstanding what intentionally aid means, especially with regards to 2nd degree murder. Unless you really think they purposefully helped Chauvin murder Floyd.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

3 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I really think you're misunderstanding what intentionally aid means, especially with regards to 2nd degree murder. Unless you really think they purposefully helped Chauvin murder Floyd.

The defense is already building a case that they weren’t intentionally aiding with the statements they have made in court so far. They have an easier shot at proving that compared to the prosecution in my opinion. 

[bigbird 60,552]

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Are you suggesting they should go into the trial with the presumed opinion that there was no intent? 

You mean like innocent till proven guilty

[homersapien 11,382]

Just now, bigbird said:

I really think you're misunderstanding what intentionally aid means, especially with regards to 2nd degree murder. Unless you really think they purposefully helped Chauvin murder Floyd.

I don't think I misunderstand at all.

I don't know if they "purposefully" helped or intended to help Chauvin at all.  But that's essentially what they did by their actions.

As a juror, I would natually assume they intended to do what they did unless I heard some evidence or testimony that persuaded my otherwise.

Or to put it another way, their actions serve as evidence of their intent.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario of a robbery and we are talking about the "getaway driver".

Scenario 1:  The driver plans the robbery with the actual robbers from the beginning.

Scenario 2: The driver is completely duped by the robbers into thinking they are going into the store to buy some beer.

Scenario 3:  The driver has no idea that a robber is planned, but notices the robbers initiate activity of the robbery (perhaps pulling guns or masks out) but he does nothing to prevent it.

I am arguing that we are looking at a scenario 3 type of situation. 

In that case, a good attorney may get the driver off, but it's equally possible a jury would still hold the driver culpable as an accessory.

[bigbird 60,552]

14 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Scenario 3:  The driver has no idea that a robber is planned, but notices the robbers initiate activity of the robbery (perhaps pulling guns or masks out) but he does nothing to prevent it.

I am arguing that we are looking at a scenario 3 type of situation. 

In that case, a good attorney may get the driver off, but it's equally possible a jury would still hold the driver culpable as an accessory.

If he drove them away, then absolutely. If the driver just stood there and didn't help them rob or get away, then the driver didn't help in the commission of the crime or the getaway and wouldn't be guilty of aiding.

[homersapien 11,382]

14 minutes ago, bigbird said:

You mean like innocent till proven guilty

No, that's not what I mean.

The defendants are innocent into proven otherwise in our system.  That's a given.

But the jury should not enter a trial with preconceived notions one way or the other.  For example, if a potential juror admitted up front that he assumed a defendant was innocent - or had no intent - he would be immediately struck from the pool and rightly so. 

I am not arguing they had intent.  I am arguing that it's an open issue.  It's not precluded as a debatable or contentious issue simply by your definition of intent.

 

[Gowebb11 9,328]

All this speculation and opinion makes for good reading.  Thankfully this will ultimately  be decided by a judge, lawyers, and jury and not a message board. 

[bigbird 60,552]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

For example, if a potential juror admitted up front that he assumed a defendant was innocent - or had no intent - he would be immediately struck from the pool and rightly so. 

In the exact same manner as one would that came in admitting that they had intent.

[homersapien 11,382]

Just now, bigbird said:

In the exact same manner as one would that came in admitting that they had intent.

Exactly.

[bigbird 60,552]

2 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

All this speculation and opinion makes for good reading.  Thankfully this will ultimately  be decided by a judge, lawyers, and jury and not a message board. 

And I'm glad I'm not on it because I believe they are guilty and deserve to be punished. .. Just not for aiding and abetting.

[homersapien 11,382]

2 hours ago, bigbird said:

If he drove them away, then absolutely. If the driver just stood there and didn't help them rob or get away, then the driver didn't help in the commission of the crime or the getaway and wouldn't be guilty of aiding.

Well, in this case, they may very well have driven him away.  Probably did.

As far as I know, they certainly didn't turn him in or make a report. 

Also in this case it can certainly be argued they did "aid and abet" by refusing to intervene in an illegal act - which is their responsibility as a LEO -  and by shielding the offender from a hostile crowd.

[Gowebb11 9,328]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

And I'm glad I'm not on it because I believe they are guilty and deserve to be punished. .. Just not for aiding and abetting.

That is a fair and admirable stance on your part, in my opinion. The OJ trial taught me that these types of trials produce an amazing number of twists and turns and are unpredictable. Plea bargains come into play as well. 

[SocialCircle 570]

7 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

That is a fair and admirable stance on your part, in my opinion. The OJ trial taught me that these types of trials produce an amazing number of twists and turns and are unpredictable. Plea bargains come into play as well. 

I would be for special independent prosecutors for all trials when the police are charged with a crime. Many times the locals are too buddy buddy with the force.

[bigbird 60,552]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Also in this case it can certainly be argued they did "aid and abet" by refusing to intervene in an illegal act -

Except for one minor thing...that doesn't fulfill the requirements for that charge. That would qualify for charges more along the lines of Deliberate Indifference or Failure to Intervene

[TexasTiger 12,946]

3 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Except for one minor thing...that doesn't fulfill the requirements for that charge. That would qualify for charges more along the lines of Deliberate Indifference or Failure to Intervene

Do you think aided and abetted an assault?

[cole256 17,084]

4 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I’ve done lots more listening and studying than I’ve spent talking. I consider myself part of a black family and I consider that family part of mine. I’m chairman of my local school board and I was instrumental in bringing in a superintendent who is black to a system that is 70% white because he was the best man for the job. I helped cut a year off the previous superintendent’s contract who happened to be white in order to bring in the best person for the job. I sat on a panel in our community just a couple of months ago to hire a new police chief. I recommended and we hired a black Chief because he was the best person for the job. My agenda is not Republican or Democrat, but it is to get to the truth. With you this appears to be a one way street. On one hand I have told you I completely support the peaceful protects and I believe the bad cops should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I have also said our criminal justice system is biased against blacks and against those who aren’t wealthy. On the other hand you haven’t acknowledged anything as far as I can tell. You can’t even acknowledge or accept simple facts....like there are actually fewer police shootings now than in the past. You can’t acknowledge there has been some criminal justice reform recently. You haven’t acknowledged the fact that black unemployment got down to historic lows just prior to the pandemic. You haven’t acknowledged opportunity zones in many inner cities. You haven’t acknowledged that prior to the pandemic wages finally increased for low and middle wage earners after years of stagnation or decline. Let’s start by acknowledging facts so it is a two way street.If you are unwilling to accept facts it is hard to continue having a discussion. I wish you luck and hope you are richly blessed.

Here's a couple of things and we can end this convo. First just because you say something doesn't make it a fact, take for instance the bull**** more white people are killed by police stat. You haven't posted the first reference. Second you didn't acknowledge or have a rebuttal for any of my many many questions that I asked you.

Lastly I'm talking about policemen killing black people for nothing. That's the most important and only topic I'm talking about. I don't care that you have a black friend, don't care that you love trump, don't care that you think he's doing a good job, don't care about made up zones. I didn't ask for a discussion about that. You're not going to dictate my conversation as you've been trying. Feel free to talk to some of the other people that may actually but into that bull. I don't

[homersapien 11,382]

35 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Except for one minor thing...that doesn't fulfill the requirements for that charge. That would qualify for charges more along the lines of Deliberate Indifference or Failure to Intervene

What exactly have they been charge with?

[bigbird 60,552]

4 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Do you think aided and abetted an assault?

I think you could drop the aided and abetting part. I think you could absolutely charge them with assault. In fact, the two that held his feet might potentially be able to be charged with battery as well. I think those charges would be much more appropriate and most likely easy convictions.

 

What do you think?

[bigbird 60,552]

37 minutes ago, homersapien said:

What exactly have they been charge with?

1. Aiding and Abetting 2nd degree murder

2. Aiding and Abetting 2nd degree manslaughter

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

Here's a couple of things and we can end this convo. First just because you say something doesn't make it a fact, take for instance the bull**** more white people are killed by police stat. You haven't posted the first reference. Second you didn't acknowledge or have a rebuttal for any of my many many questions that I asked you.

Lastly I'm talking about policemen killing black people for nothing. That's the most important and only topic I'm talking about. I don't care that you have a black friend, don't care that you love trump, don't care that you think he's doing a good job, don't care about made up zones. I didn't ask for a discussion about that. You're not going to dictate my conversation as you've been trying. Feel free to talk to some of the other people that may actually but into that bull. I don't

I can't help that you don't buy into facts.  That is on you and not me. More white people are indeed killed by police.  That is a fact.  It is also a fact blacks are killed at a disproportionate high rate as it relates to % of the population, but they are not killed at a disproportionate rate as it relates to the % of the population that commits violent crimes.   "Made up zones" tells me all I need to know about how open minded you are.  BTW, I don't like Trump.  My point there is one thing we absolutely agree on is that poverty does cause crime to increase.  I was pointing out a few of the items this administration has done that were not done by the previous administration to help with poverty.  And they are facts whether you believe them or accept them or acknowledge them or not. 

I apologize for not answering your questions.   I'll try to go back and answer questions you have asked of me to the best of my ability.  

 

[SocialCircle 570]

18 hours ago, cole256 said:

Gtfoh with that nonsense. First of all it's stupid to think that an accurate metric would be kept of police brutality. Even with this incident here they wrote in their report that Floyd was resisting. We saw when they shot the man in his back in South Carolina he wrote that the guy was attacking him. Second there is 7 times the population of white people to black people of course there will be more white people killed but to try to skew numbers and be deceiving is absolutely repugnant. And please show me what race largest numbers of death isn't their own race. Anybody with a brain knows crime will happen in the community where you stay. And also the more poverty the more crime....you think there's a bunch of crime in an affluent neighborhood in Atlanta where well off black people live? You think there's high numbers of crime amongst each other there? No the civil war was not fought to free slaves. That's not true. 

Does all lives matter when a kid go shoots up the movie theater? If you think video games or music has anything to do with people killing you're completely out of touch with what's going on but you think you know. And please don't try to pretend that everybody just agree about this....it was just caught on video very well. There was another black man killed in the same manner a few years ago and many of the people on this forum didn't have a problem with it. 99.9 don't have a problem calling out police brutality! You must have gotten that number from your other statistics. 

Your administration cursed a man out and his mother for leading a peaceful protest and riled people up to physically harm citizens and now you all talk about peaceful protesters....white people didn't protest for their justice they killed for it then want to sit back and judge minorities. Try to blame things on rapvideos but refuse to acknowledge the generational wealth that came from work of slaves and land and things like that doesn't matter. You're right about one thing though we do need more personal responsibility. 

I grew up being the only black in so called Christian schools, I grew up in poverty while watching how well the other kids had it. I even work in an industry now dominated by white people and see and hear what is really thought and said....I don't need a lecture about anything what's needed is instead of old white men telling everybody what the problems are they need to sit down and listen and learn. Hell a couple of weeks ago many was saying this didn't even exist and all the black people are lying and playing a card...The constant killing of black people by policemen has NOTHING to do with any of the things you mentioned the way you try to make excuses and blame black people for it has EVERYTHING to do with it

"you think there's a bunch of crime in an affluent neighborhood in Atlanta where well off black people live?" My answer is no I don't. 

"You think there's high numbers of crime amongst each other there?" No, I don't. I have mentioned that I agree with you that there is many times more crime where poverty exists in the country. 

"No the civil war was not fought to free slaves."  I said a Civil War was fought in this country that freed slaves and to my knowledge this has never happened in any other country in world history. 

[SocialCircle 570]

On 6/4/2020 at 11:35 PM, cole256 said:

There's much more white people killed by white people than by police. Than by terrorist as well.

When any of those schools were shot up  how many times did you wonder about white on white crime or abortions? But please I'm dead serious if you want to talk Trump go find somebody else to talk to.

You 're not interested at all in trying to help or even understanding a problem we just have to wait for the generations after you

"When any of those schools were shot up  how many times did you wonder about white on white crime or abortions?"  Yes, I told you one of my biggest worries in the country is our culture is getting worse over time. My point though isn’t about black on black crime. My point is you said the biggest problem is black lives have no value. So matter who is killing blacks in places like Chicago and since more blacks are killed in Chicago and in other major cities than by police every year; why are there no protests or much attention paid to these killings. I mean stopping these killings would save more black lives than stopping police killings of blacks. Can you explain? 

[SocialCircle 570]

15 hours ago, cole256 said:

You have quoted skewed numbers and when a man is unjustly killed by policemen you brought up abortions and black on black crime......clearly you take great pride in helping black people

You said the biggest problem is that black lives aren't valued.  Are the only black lives that have value the ones killed by the police?  Do black babies being killed by abortion not have value?  Do the lives of the blacks that are murdered every weekend in Chicago and other major cities not have value?   

If the biggest problem per your own words is that black lives aren't valued, then why is the focus not on the issues that cost many, many more black lives?     

[SocialCircle 570]

On 6/5/2020 at 7:48 AM, cole256 said:

For one thing things are said the other if you look at numbers it's the same with white people, murder happens more than people being killed by terrorist attacks but since it's white people nobody thought after 9/11 to say well theoretically lost more people to murder this month than to terrorist attacks. 

You speak like what people really think white people really feel, see there's really no value or importance to a black life so you'd speak like that, it doesn't matter being killed by people that are supposed to protect you.....It's look at numbers and let's speak on it like we're talking about cattle or something.....

Why isn't the same done with white people? Why is it there's all the respect in the world for police when they are killing us but treat them as if they don't exist when it comes to stuff like being told to stay in the house? Why do you keep going over the typical Republican agenda even though it doesn't make sense? Why is it you feel that you need to do more talking as opposed to listening? Because you have a black friend?

"Why isn't the same done with white people?" I look at numbers for a living and make sense of data.  I do look at the numbers for whites.  Whites have too many divorces and church attendance is in decline in the white community.  Statistics show whites are more likely to commit suicide. So the same is done with white people as it relates to me. 

 

"Why is it there's all the respect in the world for police when they are killing us but treat them as if they don't exist when it comes to stuff like being told to stay in the house?"  Nobody I know or have witnessed respects the bad cop who murdered George Floyd and the other white cop or the other asian cop or the other black cop that just stood there and let it happen either. I do respect the law and the vast majority of them do a good job.  I do not respect the ones who do wrong. I don't treat them like they don't exist when I am told to stay in the house. I have seen no police killed because they told someone to stay in the house either....have you?  I support the right to peacefully protest for all citizens. I don’t support violent protests or protests that result in the destruction of personal property and I don’t support protests that result in stealing. I do support peaceful protests though whether it is over the unjust murder of Mr. Floyd or over what those protesters consider unjust orders as it relates to Covid-19. 

"Why do you keep going over the typical Republican agenda even though it doesn't make sense? "  I am not going over any political agenda.  I am looking at the truth and facts and evidence and forming my opinions based on that. I try to use facts and data and evidence to form my opinions. You appear to me to use emotions to form some of your opinions. I do understand how emotional this issue is, so I understand why even though I don’t agree with using emotions over facts to form opinions. I mean saying opportunity zones are made up and refusing to acknowledge the fighting of the Civil War resulted in the freeing of slaves really does tell me a lot.  

"Why is it you feel that you need to do more talking as opposed to listening? Because you have a black friend?" I've done more listening than talking. Yes, I have numerous black friends and the best lady I've ever known is a now deceased black woman who I named my youngest daughter after. 

[Grumps 3,704]

6 hours ago, bigbird said:

You mean like innocent till proven guilty

You win the internet for the day! Awesome!