The first debate

[TitanTiger 20,510]

The Problem Is Not on "Both Sides"

The media falls for Trump, again.

Jonathan V. Last Sep 30

Let’s stipulate that most of the time, your perception of who wins a debate aligns closely with your priors. If you like Candidate X, you are likely to think that Candidate X won the debate.

I do not like Donald Trump. I think he probably “lost” the debate last night. But my opinion on that doesn’t really matter. That debate wasn’t for me and Trump’s performance wasn’t designed to resonate with people like me. I would bet the mortgage that for some segment of voters, Trump absolutely crushed it and gave them everything they wanted.

So let’s put aside the question of winning and losing. Instead, let’s focus on who is responsible for what happened on the stage in Cleveland.

Looking around the media landscape this morning, just about everyone is decrying how awful both Donald Trump and Joe Biden were. How boorish. How uncouth. How impolite. How unpresidential.

Here are some headlines:

“Insults Fly in Chaotic Presidential Debate” —Detroit News

“Trump, Biden Debate Descends into Chaos” —Orange County Register

“Yelling, Name-Calling Mark First Debate” —Denver Post

“Insults, Interruptions: Candidates take the stage—and shots at each other, when they’re not getting in each other’s way.” —Cleveland Plain Dealer

These headlines are so painfully, falsely equivalent that they don’t reflect the reality of what actually happened.

Imagine a newspaper reporting on the Soviet invasion of Poland in September of 1939 with a headline saying:

“Russians, Poles, trade fire in latest outbreak of violence.”

There is only one person responsible for what happened at the debate: Donald Trump.

It’s on him. Entirely.

Joe Biden tried to conduct himself in a normal manner.

He mostly abided by the rules of the debate. On the few occasions he did not and Chris Wallace admonished him, he deferred.

He mostly refused to come down to Trump’s level. On the few occasions he did sink, he did so plainly out of exasperation, not malice.

He mostly said things which were factually true. On the few occasions he did not, his factual errors were minor.

Was Biden’s performance close to perfect? No. He called the president of the United States a “clown” at least twice. He told the president to shut up.

On the other hand, he did not lie about the president’s children (as Trump did). He did not lie about the president’s policy proposals (as Trump did).

He did not encourage a white nationalist group to “stand by.” He did not refuse to tell his supporters to behave peacefully following the election.

These are not small things. There is no equivalence here.

Once again, Donald Trump has used the media’s desire to appear “fair” against America.

https://thetriad.thebulwark.com/p/the-problem-is-not-on-both-sides

[TitanTiger 20,510]

4 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

That is not what Fauci said about Trump under oath. The worst response to the pandemic came from those govs (all Dems) who put elderly folks with Covid-19 back in to those facilities with other elderly folks who did not have the virus. And also to those govs who continue to keep things shut down in their states for too long after the science says they should open back up. 

Two of the top four states in COVID deaths are red states with Republican governors (TX and FL).  California has roughly the same number of deaths as both even though they have a much higher overall population.

[McLoofus 35,182]

21 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

People's opinion of the candidates is a lot closer than I expected. 

 

There were no winners last night, only losers. The American people being the biggest loser out of all this.

bull****. Biden won.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

bull****. Biden won.

True.  But almost by default.  He basically managed to be a normal human being and last night that was all that was required.

[homersapien 11,440]

3 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

That is not what Fauci said about Trump under oath. The worst response to the pandemic came from those govs (all Dems) who put elderly folks with Covid-19 back in to those facilities with other elderly folks who did not have the virus. And also to those govs who continue to keep things shut down in their states for too long after the science says they should open back up. 

That sounds exactly like Trump - blame everyone but himself.  He'd be proud of your sycophancy.  You are truly one of his useful idiots.

States weren't responsible for formulating and executing a NATIONAL plan, that's the job of the POTUS.

(And you don't get to 206,000 deaths from rest home fatalities.)

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

True.  But almost by default.  He basically managed to be a normal human being and last night that was all that was required.

Yup. 

I get that people are dispirited but the "they're both bad" talk is just nonsense. One is clearly, significantly better than the other. Your comment applies to the actual presidency. All Biden has to do is "not further deteriorate our democracy" and he's still lapping the competition. 

The crazies are who they are. The smart people falling into this apathy trap piss me off. 

[homersapien 11,440]

4 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

You could say the same thing about Biden as it relates to Antifa.
 

Meanwhile Trump has in fact publicly denounced white supremists. I don’t believe Biden has ever denounced Antifa. 

Do your ******* homework: 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-condemns-antifa-violent-protests

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/03/donald-trump/trump-campaign-wrong-biden-has-repeatedly-condemne/

And Trump's "denounced" white supremacists only because of the outrage and pressure he got from his earlier refusal to do so ("fine people on both sides").  And considering his statements since then - most recently last night -  it's obvious to anyone who's not one of his useful idiots that he was totally insincere.

 

 

 

[SocialCircle 570]

22 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Two of the top four states in COVID deaths are red states with Republican governors (TX and FL).  California has roughly the same number of deaths as both even though they have a much higher overall population.

Incredibly misleading.  You must do better. 

 https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

[homersapien 11,440]

3 hours ago, DAG said:

I will say I agree . Biden does need more townhalls. I want to hear specifics about his plan with COVID, addressing the defunding or lack of for policing, and how he is going to go about paying for ways to deal with global warming. 

I agree we perhaps need to hear more specifics but he does have published positions and/or statements on all of the topics you mentioned:

https://joebiden.com/covid-plan/

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/510763-biden-says-he-supports-additional-funding-for-the-police

https://joebiden.com/climate-plan/#

Now I would like for Trump to present his positions on such issues so we can compare.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

Incredibly misleading.  You must do better. 

 https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

New Jersey and Connecticut are basically that way due to being part of the NYC metro area.  Taking that into account, of the top 10 death rates listed, 7 of them belong to Democratically run states and 6 belong to Republican run states.

Backing what I said, TX and FL have death rates 1.5 to 2X higher than California.

You do better.

[SocialCircle 570]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

New Jersey and Connecticut are basically that way due to being part of the NYC metro area.  Taking that into account, of the top 10 death rates listed, 7 of them belong to Democratically run states and 6 belong to Republican run states.

Backing what I said, TX and FL have death rates 1.5 to 2X higher than California.

You do better.

The king of spin returns.  Whine, whine.....cry....cry....CT and NJ don't count.  

[TitanTiger 20,510]

8 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

The king of spin returns.  Whine, whine.....cry....cry....CT and NJ don't count.  

They count, but there's context that matters.  NY state really isn't overrun with COVID as the numbers suggest at first blush.  New York City and it's in-state suburbs account for 92% of all the state's cases.  And counties in NJ and CT that function as suburbs of NYC account for 62% (NJ) and 57% (CT) of their state's cases respectively.  That's why counting them separately doesn't really tell a true story.  It's their proximity to NYC that matters, not who their governors are.

I'm sorry you don't so much beyond surface analysis enough to get it.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

33 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

bull****. Biden won.

For the record I never said Biden is as bad as trump. If Biden won, it was akin to Auburn beating MSU 3-2. All he needed to do was show up to win. If we are having to judge which one was more mature to declare a winner then really who wins out of all this? Certainly not the American people. The bar is so low it’s sitting on the ground now. 

[SocialCircle 570]

6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

They count, but there's context that matters.  NY state really isn't overrun with COVID as the numbers suggest at first blush.  New York City and it's in-state suburbs account for 92% of all the state's cases.  And counties in NJ and CT that function as suburbs of NYC account for 62% (NJ) and 57% (CT) of their state's cases respectively.  That's why counting them separately doesn't really tell a true story.  It's their proximity to NYC that matters, not who their governors are.

I'm sorry you don't so much beyond surface analysis enough to get it.

Keep spinning.  8 of top 11 listed  have Dems are governors (mayor in the case of DC).  Also the top 2 are governors who put elderly who were positive back in facilities with other elderly who did not have the virus. 

You could spin arguments for several states, but the facts are the facts......everything else is opinion. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, wdefromtx said:

For the record I never said Biden is as bad as trump. If Biden won, it was akin to Auburn beating MSU 3-2. All he needed to do was show up to win. If we are having to judge which one was more mature to declare a winner then really who wins out of all this? Certainly not the American people. The bar is so low it’s sitting on the ground now. 

Except Biden did not participate in lowering the bar. That's all on one guy. Yet you still implicate Biden. That's trump's entire strategy and I'll give it to him, it's working. He's clowning so many of y'all so badly. 

And hell no Biden didn't just win 3-2. That's the entire logical fallacy that you're falling into. Biden looked about as graceful as a normal adult can while beating down a ******* s*** flinging toddler having a tantrum, but he did indeed beat that toddler down. It's not his fault that he's stuck debating this ******* clown.

You've got to be smarter than this. 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

1 minute ago, SocialCircle said:

Keep spinning.  8 of top 11 listed  have Dems are governors (mayor in the case of DC).  Also the top 2 are governors who put elderly who were positive back in facilities with other elderly who did not have the virus. 

You could spin arguments for several states, but the facts are the facts......everything else is opinion. 

Even facts don't give a fuller picture if you don't look at the details.  That's not spin, it's giving something thoughtful consideration instead of just stopping when you get a look you like.

[homersapien 11,440]

How pathetic is it that MAGAs like Social resort to politicizing the pandemic death rate when the problem is clearly that Trump totally failed to lead the country in an effective national effort, and -in fact - made things worse?

Democratic governors - hell Republican governors also - aren't responsible for formulating and executing the national response.  Meanwhile, Trump is playing blue states off against red states in a blatant effort to politicize the problem. I don't know it that was to mask his incompetence or his indifference to the responsibilities of the job, but it doesn't matter.

 

[SocialCircle 570]

6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Even facts don't give a fuller picture if you don't look at the details.  That's not spin, it's giving something thoughtful consideration instead of just stopping when you get a look you like.

The facts are the facts and you can spin those facts to make them "feel" better to you, but it doesn't change the facts. 

[SocialCircle 570]

11 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Except Biden did not participate in lowering the bar. That's all on one guy. Yet you still implicate Biden. That's trump's entire strategy and I'll give it to him, it's working. He's clowning so many of y'all so badly. 

And hell no Biden didn't just win 3-2. That's the entire logical fallacy that you're falling into. Biden looked about as graceful as a normal adult can while beating down a ******* s*** flinging toddler having a tantrum, but he did indeed beat that toddler down. It's not his fault that he's stuck debating this ******* clown.

You've got to be smarter than this. 

You are a clown and you are a racist and you are Putin's Puppy didn't help lower the bar????  What planet are you on????

[homersapien 11,440]

15 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

They count, but there's context that matters.  NY state really isn't overrun with COVID as the numbers suggest at first blush.  New York City and it's in-state suburbs account for 92% of all the state's cases.  And counties in NJ and CT that function as suburbs of NYC account for 62% (NJ) and 57% (CT) of their state's cases respectively.  That's why counting them separately doesn't really tell a true story.  It's their proximity to NYC that matters, not who their governors are.

I'm sorry you don't so much beyond surface analysis enough to get it.

Anything to divert accountability from the one person who is literally responsible for leading the whole country, not just the red states.

He can't admit he supports a total loser.  A person who has been totally hoodwinked is the last to admit it.

[homersapien 11,440]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

The facts are the facts and you can spin those facts to make them "feel" better to you, but it doesn't change the facts. 

What is the conclusion you draw from those "facts"?

[homersapien 11,440]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

You are a clown and you are a racist and you are Putin's Puppy didn't help lower the bar????  What planet are you on????

"The facts are the facts."  Right? 

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Just now, SocialCircle said:

The facts are the facts and you can spin those facts to make them "feel" better to you, but it doesn't change the facts. 

You're offering "facts" as if just raw numbers speak for themselves.  They don't.  Context matters.  Put Connecticut next to Illinois or Virginia for instance and their numbers plummet.  Same for NJ.  It wouldn't matter who was governor, proximity to the largest city in the US that has the most international flights coming and going from it makes a huge difference.  It's also why almost 30,000 out of the 32,000 cases NY state has are all concentrated in the NYC Metro Area.  Other metro areas (Syracuse, Buffalo, Rochester, Albany) in NY State pale by comparison.

[homersapien 11,440]

1 hour ago, SocialCircle said:

That is not what Fauci said about Trump under oath. The worst response to the pandemic came from those govs (all Dems) who put elderly folks with Covid-19 back in to those facilities with other elderly folks who did not have the virus. And also to those govs who continue to keep things shut down in their states for too long after the science says they should open back up. 

Yeah, it's everyone's fault but the one person who is actually responsible for our national response.  (And it's not over yet.)

You are a cultist.

[SocialCircle 570]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You're offering "facts" as if just raw numbers speak for themselves.  They don't.  Context matters.  Put Connecticut next to Illinois or Virginia for instance and their numbers plummet.  Same for NJ.  It wouldn't matter who was governor, proximity to the largest city in the US that has the most international flights coming and going from it makes a huge difference.  It's also why almost 30,000 out of the 32,000 cases NY state has are all concentrated in the NYC Metro Area.  Other metro areas (Syracuse, Buffalo, Rochester, Albany) in NY State pale by comparison.

Great point. Let's just put the University of Alabama in WV so they can't recruit as well.  

The context that both the NY and NJ governors put elderly who were positive with the virus back into facilities with elderly people who didn't have the virus seems to escape your "context" for some reason.  I wonder why??? This is one reason what you are doing is spinning.