The first debate

[DKW 86 7,426]

1 hour ago, johnnyAU said:

Total clown show. Then again, is anyone surprised?

We have been electing clowns in DC for 40 years. Problem: It probably would not have looked too much different with the next set of candidates. 

[TexasTiger 12,949]

10 hours ago, creed said:

Maybe not, but this is a crap product the network and its debate staff is broadcasting. 

The crap product they’ve been promoting won the Presidency 4 years ago so this is on the American people.

[AUDub 11,153]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

Biden had his poor moments last night, but at least 80% of the responsibility for that shitshow last night was the President's behavior.  He sent that thing off the rails early and continued to just make it more and more embarrassing and worthless as the night went on.  Biden joined in on some of the interrupting and calling him a clown, but I have zero doubt that if Trump doesn't pull the s*** he pulled, Biden was there to have a reasonable discussion and it never gets anywhere close to what it became.  It was as George Conway tweeted, like trying to debate "a monkey that just makes noises and throws poop."

Biden kept his composure far better than I would have. 

[TexasTiger 12,949]

21 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

We have been electing clowns in DC for 40 years. Problem: It probably would not have looked too much different with the next set of candidates. 

Biden’s never been in a debate like this, but you’re delusional so go ahead.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

26 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

We have been electing clowns in DC for 40 years. Problem: It probably would not have looked too much different with the next set of candidates. 

There are times where the "both sides" response makes sense, but this isn't one of them.  With any other functioning adult in the Republican slot, that's a normal debate.  You can't point to another debate in either of our lifetimes that was even in the same zip code as that shitshow.

[AUEngineer2016 407]

9 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Lol.  The key takeaway was that Trump behaved like an snot-nosed, adolescent bully.  Everything else falls way down the list of key takeaways from the evening.   He hurt himself tonight.

I disagree to an extent. My top 3 takeaways from it were:

1. When given the absolute softest of softball questions in "Do you condemn White Supremacy", Trump responded that a known racist and right-wing extremist group called the Proud Boys should "Stand Back and Stand By". As much as Trump yelled about Biden not saying "Law and Order", Trump refused on multiple occasions to condemn white supremacy. Side note: He also says he ended racial sensitivity training because it's racist, which is just ridiculous 

2. Trump refused to say that he would accept the election results either way, and explicitly said he intends to use the Supreme Court to decide the victor (which is a problem given that 2/8 or 3/9 of the justices were appointed by him).

3. Trump described multiple ways in which he's attempting to suppress votes - including calling mail-in ballots into question (during a global pandemic when people are socially distancing and will be using mail-in ballots more heavily) and encouraging people to be "poll watchers" (meaning, in his words "go into the polls and watch very carefully because that's what has to happen"). 

Trump 100% acted like an absolute child tonight. He agreed to terms for the debate, and did not abide by them. If you're as masochistic as I am, I encourage you go to back and watch some of the Romney v Obama debates- it's a night and day difference in terms of professionalism, civility, and actually discussing issues.

Everyone reading this- VOTE. V O T E. Vote early if you can, vote in person if you can. I don't care who you vote for, that's your business. Just vote. Texas early voting starts 8/13, and my wife and I will do our best to vote as early as we can here in Houston.

[AUEngineer2016 407]

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

There are times where the "both sides" response makes sense, but this isn't one of them.  With any other functioning adult in the Republican slot, that's a normal debate.  You can't point to another debate in either of our lifetimes that was even in the same zip code as that shitshow.

Just going to drop this here as an example:

 

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

16 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

There are times where the "both sides" response makes sense, but this isn't one of them.  With any other functioning adult in the Republican slot, that's a normal debate.  You can't point to another debate in either of our lifetimes that was even in the same zip code as that shitshow.

That entire thing was disturbing. Sounded like a “ AU fifty smack talk “ thread reads. 

 

 

 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

[aubiefifty 16,807]

16 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

That entire thing was disturbing. Sounded like a “ AU fifty smack talk “ thread reads. 

 

 

 

well thank you salty. i believe trump needs to be smacked and often. at least i am consistent.

[aubiefifty 16,807]

poor dkw................lol

[creed 1,640]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

The crap product they’ve been promoting won the Presidency 4 years ago so this is on the American people.

That’s really not my point. Candidates aside the debate teams or networks need to put together a format/rules that allows the viewing public to understand a candidate’s response. If it’s cutting off the mike DO IT and not allow what I saw last night. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, creed said:

That’s really not my point. Candidates aside the debate teams or networks need to put together a format/rules that allows the viewing public to understand a candidate’s response. If it’s cutting off the mike DO IT and not allow what I saw last night. 

The American people need to decide that participants who are incapable of controlling their own impulses to the point that they need a goddamned nanny to get through a debate will never again participate in one.

This is 100% on trump voters. It is not the media's job to convince grown ass adults to make adult decisions. 

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

Regarding that middle tweet, the best line I heard all night was that trump never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. 

Biden and Wallace both probably had to take multiple showers to get the stink of that off of them. 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

Aliens flying by earth last night saw that shitshow and locked their doors and sped the hell up to get away. 

[AUFAN78 3,911]

10 hours ago, Leftfield said:

Biden was pretty mediocre, which as many said going into this was all he really needed. I thought refusing to answer the question about packing the court was his biggest misstep. He also allowed himself to be pulled into the interrupting game. Granted, he probably thought he wasn't going to get any time unless he did that, but I still think he did it too much. Whatever the case, at least he came out of it looking competent and, quite importantly, like a decent human being.

Biggest takeaway for Trump above all else was that he refused to condemn white supremacists. Please let that sink in: In 2020, the President of the United States refused to condemn white supremacists. I couldn't believe what I was watching.

Then, of course, instead of outright condemning any violence from right-wing fringe groups, he says "Stand back and stand by." When he said "stand back", I thought he had merely misspoke and took it to mean "stand down," but then he immediately said "stand by" and my wife and I looked at each other, making sure what we'd just heard. I have zero doubt he meant it. He had ample opportunity to think about what he was going to say, and then to correct himself after the fact. Certainly the Proud Boys thought he meant it - media is already reporting that they've seized on "stand back and stand by" and are using it as a rally cry. He is all but encouraging his supporters to go to polling locations and intimidate voters, so he is giving implicit approval for them to commit a felony.

I simply cannot believe someone this disgraceful has made it to the highest office in our country. 

A lot of people are hanging their hat on that and I have no idea what Trump meant by his statement, but what is clear and on record is his previous condemnation of white supremacy. In fact multiple accounts.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

"Will You Shut Up, Man"

Four lowlights from last night's merdefest

Charlie Sykes

Well, that was awful. As in, screaming, feces-throwing monkey ghastly.

I’m not sure if you watched the entire debate last night, but if you made the rational choice to turn it off and do something more pleasant — like perform root-canal surgery on yourself — you did not miss a great moment for democracy. 

A quick list of losers would be 1. America, 2. The Presidency, 3. Trump, and 4. The National Sanity. I’d put Chris Wallace on the list, but short of slamming his fist on a non-existent mute button, I’m not sure what he could have done. I imagine that this morning he’s examining his life choices. Aren’t we all?

But if you could bear to watch this unwatchable merdefest, there were memorable moments.

At one point, the former vice president of the United States said to the current president, ‘Will you shut up, man?” 

And he spoke for all of America.

As JVL writes in this morning’s Bulwark, “The Cleveland debate was a miniature, 90-minute version of the last 4 years: depressing, exhausting, full of craziness and lies.”

It was also a reminder what happens when you elevate a blustering, mendacious, bully to the Oval Office. The whole world cringed.

Yes, Biden could have been sharper. He let some of Trump’s gibes go unanswered. At the beginning he seemed old and shaky. The constant interruptions occasionally seemed to fluster him. As time when on, though, he recovered and instant polls suggest he won the night.

But this isn’t the usual catalogue of winners and losers, because the real story here was Trump, whose performance was a toxic brew of horrific and shambolic. 

Of course, his usual fluffers saw Trump as an “apex predator,” and thrilled to his insults, attacks, interruptions, and constant hectoring. Hugh Hewitt did his usual contortions to see #winning. 

But this felt like the last twitches of desperate sycophancy. The reality is that Trump was appalling — an insult to the institution of the presidency, the democratic process, and our intelligence. His chronic indecency almost goes without saying.

“Trump was something else entirely — some kind of post-truth, street-fighting, full-spectrum bulls**t artist,” wrote Damon Linker. “Say anything. Dominate constantly. Display no warmth. No compassion. No empathy. Just fight, fight, fight.” Bill Kristol noted that the debate “was a disgrace because of the behavior of one man, Donald Trump. The interrupting and the bullying, the absence of both decency and dignity— gave the affair the rare and sickening character of a national humiliation.” James Fallows called last night “a disgusting moment for democracy. Donald Trump made it so, and Chris Wallace let him.”

“But this is our country on Trump,” writes Amanda Carpenter. “We are constantly assailed by belligerent bull**** from our Manbaby-in-Chief.”

Before I turn over the podium to my colleagues, four lowlights stuck with me:

 

Trump went Full Captain Queeg. 

If you have unhinged ranting about Obamagate on your bingo card, you won. Feel the paranoia:

So when I listen to Joe talking about a transition, there has been no transition from when I won. I won that election. And if you look at crooked Hillary Clinton, if you look at all of the different people, there was no transition, because they came after me trying to do a coup. They came after me spying on my campaign. 

They started from the day I won, and even before I won. From the day I came down the escalator with our first lady, they were a disaster. 

They were a disgrace to our country, and we’ve caught them. We’ve caught them all. We’ve got it all on tape. We’ve caught them all. And by the way, you gave the idea for the Logan Act against General Flynn. You better take a look at that, because we caught you in a sense, and President Obama was sitting in the office.

 

The whole Hunter Biden thing. 

I’m sure that Trump thought he scored by repeating the same charges against Biden’s son, but his constant interruptions were so obnoxious that they may have turned off any undecided voters still watching this s*** show. Check out this headline from Vanity Fair: “TRUMP INTERRUPTS JOE BIDEN TALKING ABOUT DEAD SON TO CALL THE ONE THAT’S STILL ALIVE A DEADBEAT.” 

The transcript:

Biden: And speaking of my son, the way you talk about the military, the way you talk about them being losers and being and just being suckers. My son was in Iraq. He spent a year there. He got the Bronze Star. He got the Conspicuous Service Medal. He was not a loser. He was a Patriot and the people left behind there were heroes.

President Donald J. Trump: (47:39)
Really?

Vice President Joe Biden: (47:39)
And I resent-

President Donald J. Trump: (47:40)
Are you talking Hunter, are you talking about Hunter.

Vice President Joe Biden: (47:42)
I’m talking about my son, Beau Biden, you’re talking about Hunter?

President Donald J. Trump: (47:44)
I don’t know Beau. I know Hunter. Hunter got thrown out of the military. He was thrown out dishonorably discharged.

Vice President Joe Biden: (47:51)
That’s not true he was not dishonorably discharged.

President Donald J. Trump: (47:53)
For cocaine use. And he didn’t have a job until you became vice president.

Vice President Joe Biden: (47:56)
None of that is true.

President Donald J. Trump: (47:56)
Once you became vice president he made a fortune in Ukraine, in China, in Moscow and various other places.

Vice President Joe Biden: (48:01)
That is not true.

President Donald J. Trump: (48:04)
He made a fortune and he didn’t have a job.

Vice President Joe Biden: (48:07)
My son like a lot of people at home had a drug problem. He’s overtaking it. He’s fixed it. He’s worked on it. And I’m proud of him, I’m proud of my son.

President Donald J. Trump: (48:17)
But why was he given tens of millions of dollars?

Vice President Joe Biden: (48:19)
He wasn’t given tens of millions of dollars. [crosstalk 00:48:23] It was all discredited.

Chris Wallace: (48:27)
We’ve already been through this. I think the American people would rather hear about more substantial subjects. Well, as the moderator, sir, I’m going to make a judgment call here.

 

He refused to condemn white supremacists. 

Via the Wapo.

Asked whether he was willing to denounce white supremacists and militia groups, Trump said, “Sure.” He added, speaking broadly, “Sure, I’m willing to do that, but I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing.”

Biden and Wallace then invited Trump to say it more explicitly, but he went in a different direction. Trump asked them to name specific groups, at which point Biden volunteered the “Proud Boys.”

Trump offered something besides a condemnation.

“Proud Boys: Stand back and stand by,” Trump said, adding: “But I’ll tell you what, I’ll tell you what: Somebody’s got to do something about antifa and the left, because this is not a right-wing problem.”

The most charitable read on Trump’s comments is that he was truly suggesting that such groups back off. But he clearly didn’t condemn them, and the Proud Boys didn’t take it as such.

The Proud Boys are ecstatic tonight about getting mentioned in the debate tonight. "Trump basically said to go **** them up! this makes me so happy," writes one prominent Proud Boy. 

 

He refused to say that he would accept the results of the election. 

Via CNN.

"I'm urging supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully," Trump said, on a night where he continued his unfounded attacks on voting by mail. "If it's a fair election, I am 100% on board. But if I see tens of thousands of ballots being manipulated, I can't go along with that."

Biden, by contrast, pointed out that Trump's own FBI director, Christopher Wray, has said there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud. Biden agreed he would not declare victory until the election was certified.

 

We’ll have to wait to see whether last night’s debate really changed anything. But this was an interesting reaction:

in Frank Luntz's focus group, Ruthie from PA (upper right corner) said she was undecided coming into tonight..... but now likes Biden b/c Trump was behaving like a "crackhead" and made the debate impossible to watch 

Words undecided voters in @FrankLuntz's focus group had for Trump: "arrogant," "crackhead" and "un-American" Biden: "better than expected," "more professional," "restraint and compassion," "Predictable" "coherent" "leader"

And this from Fox:

Brian Kilmeade: "Donald Trump ruined the biggest layup in the history of debates by not condemning white supremists. I don't know if he didn't hear it, but he's gotta clarify that right away. ... Why the president didn't just knock it out of the park, I'm not sure."

 

https://morningshots.thebulwark.com/p/will-you-shut-up-man

[AUFAN78 3,911]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Biden had his poor moments last night, but at least 80% of the responsibility for that shitshow last night was the President's behavior.  He sent that thing off the rails early and continued to just make it more and more embarrassing and worthless as the night went on.  Biden joined in on some of the interrupting and calling him a clown, but I have zero doubt that if Trump doesn't pull the s*** he pulled, Biden was there to have a reasonable discussion and it never gets anywhere close to what it became.  It was as George Conway tweeted, like trying to debate "a monkey that just makes noises and throws poop."

I think Chris Wallace deserves a good portion of that 80%.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

2 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

A lot of people are hanging their hat on that and I have no idea what Trump meant by his statement, but what is clear and on record is his previous condemnation of white supremacy. In fact multiple accounts.

Well, the Proud Boys certainly took it the way most others seem to have:

 

[AUFAN78 3,911]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Well, the Proud Boys certainly took it the way most others seem to have:

 

That's like giving attention to Antifa. I don't care what some inbred stated.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Just now, AUFAN78 said:

That's like giving attention to Antifa. I don't care what some inbred stated.

I'm just saying, it's not just people on Twitter or the media that picked up on that meaning.  "The President basically said to go **** them up" and "Standing by sir" make that pretty clear.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

9 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

I think Chris Wallace deserves a good portion of that 80%.

There was literally nothing Chris Wallace could have done other than shut off mics, and he didn't have that power.  He tried on several occasions to get them (mostly Trump, who was by far the main offender) to stop interrupting and talking over the other person during their 2 minutes, even raising his voice to meet Trump's level, but Trump doesn't listen to anyone.  He just kept barreling straight ahead.

I think personally, the only way to do a format like this with someone who doesn't give a s*** about the rules is to literally make it part of the ground rule that during each person's 2 mins of "uninterrupted" speaking time, the opposing candidates mic is automatically muted.  But I'd also give the moderator a kill switch for both mics to use as needed.

[DKW 86 7,426]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

We have been electing clowns in DC for 40 years. Problem: It probably would not have looked too much different with the next set of candidates. 

 

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Biden’s never been in a debate like this, but you’re delusional so go ahead.

WTH are you talking about?

[DKW 86 7,426]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

There are times where the "both sides" response makes sense, but this isn't one of them.  With any other functioning adult in the Republican slot, that's a normal debate.  You can't point to another debate in either of our lifetimes that was even in the same zip code as that shitshow.

Anyone remember the 2012 VP Debate? Swapped Roles.  You know, when you have no context things lose perspective. In 2012, Biden was a complete ass then.

 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

3 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Anyone remember the 2012 VP Debate? Swapped Roles.  You know, when you have no context things lose perspective. In 2012, Biden was a complete ass then.

 

That debate would have been a beacon of light and hope compared to last night and you know it.  Trump was on another level.

[Mikey 16,624]

I do wish President Trump had let Biden speak more. The more Biden speaks, the more he screws up. Biden is his own worst enemy and Trump didn't allow him enough time to shoot himself in the foot, which he would certainly have done.

Watching that whole thing was like sitting through a really, really bad movie. After it's over, you ask yourself "Why did I sit through that entire thing?"

I vote for the moderators in the future debates to have a cutoff switch on both mics.