The first debate

[McLoofus 35,182]

7 minutes ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

“Yea Trump insulted Joe’s intelligence, his family and refused to denounce white supremacy, telling one group to stand by. And yea he refused to keep his mouth shut during Biden’s speaking time. But Biden stumbled on a couple of words and told Trump to shut up, so it’s basically a wash”. Both candidates are equally terrible.

-Trump supporters

The scary thing is that it's not just trump supporters. Goes for those who are going to abstain or write in, too. 

There are a few here who regularly say that they aren't going to vote for either because they think both candidates are equally bad. It's so far south of logical that "illogical" doesn't quite cut it and I can't really come up with the word for it.  I can only suspect that there's some sort of brain mechanism that makes them think that trump being so incredibly awful- just completely absent any virtue or value- means that the Democrats needed to come up with another Clinton or Obama. And that only coming up with a candidate who is less than exciting but still clearly playing in a much higher league than trump deserves some sort of punishment. 

Does. Not. Compute.

[AuCivilEng1 11,012]

7 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

The scary thing is that it's not just trump supporters. Goes for those who are going to abstain or write in, too. 

There are a few here who regularly say that they aren't going to vote for either because they think both candidates are equally bad. It's so far south of logical that "illogical" doesn't quite cut it and I can't really come up with the word for it.  I can only suspect that there's some sort of brain mechanism that makes them think that trump being so incredibly awful- just completely absent any virtue or value- means that the Democrats needed to come up with another Clinton or Obama. And that only coming up with a candidate who is less than exciting but still clearly playing in a much higher league than trump deserves some sort of punishment. 

Does. Not. Compute.

Me either man. It baffles me. The differences are clear and becoming clearer every day. It makes me think that the only real way they can stand up for him is to create false equivalencies to justify their support of him. Nobody with any sense thinks Donald Trump is a good person or a capable president. Biden is no John F Kennedy, but at the very least, at least he knows wtf is going on with policy and at least he’s willing and ready to listen to experts. That in itself makes him a huge upgrade.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, AuCivilEng1 said:

Me either man. It baffles me. The differences are clear and becoming clearer every day. It makes me think that the only real way they can stand up for him is to create false equivalencies to justify their support of him. Nobody with any sense thinks Donald Trump is a good person or a capable president. Biden is no John F Kennedy, but at the very least, at least he knows wtf is going on with policy and at least he’s willing and to listen to experts. That in itself makes him a huge upgrade.

Exactly! Another logical disconnect! "We've got a mentally syphilitic Caligula wannabe burning the White House to the ground for sport, a long and sordid trail of indictments in his wake, but god forbid we elect the guy who accepts the help he needs from people qualified to provide it".

Even when Dubya was letting Rove and Rumsfeld run the country, as least it continued to run more or less like our democracy was meant to. And, truth be told, possibly better than if Dubya had been more autocratic in his thinking. There are cabinets and vice presidents and other advisers for a reason. 

 

[TexasTiger 12,947]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

 

WTH are you talking about?

Reality. You wouldn’t understand.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

2 hours ago, ArgoEagle said:

What is the point of even having a debate between these 2?

Every poster on this forum who was a Trump supporter before the debate is still a Trump supporter, and every Biden supporter is still a Biden supporter. I would venture to say it is like this for 90+ percent of the entire US voting population.

It really simply comes down to what type of government people want to live under and not so much who the candidates are. We all know what Biden is about, and we all know what Trump is about.

Trump is about traditional Constitutional Government and Biden is about Progressive Liberal Government. In other words Trump wants the government to stay the same, and Biden wants to see wide range change in the government 

The x-factor in this year's race is the pandemic and the effect it will have election night and after election night.

Whomever is declared the winner; the other party is not going to be willing to accept the results and will claim some form of election fraud or tampering.

It is going to be a cluster for sure.

I just don't see any reason to have any more debates. Just wasting people's time.

Trump is not a traditional anything nor a Constitutionalist of any stripe.

[SaturdayGT 719]

[SocialCircle 570]

40 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

The scary thing is that it's not just trump supporters. Goes for those who are going to abstain or write in, too. 

There are a few here who regularly say that they aren't going to vote for either because they think both candidates are equally bad. It's so far south of logical that "illogical" doesn't quite cut it and I can't really come up with the word for it.  I can only suspect that there's some sort of brain mechanism that makes them think that trump being so incredibly awful- just completely absent any virtue or value- means that the Democrats needed to come up with another Clinton or Obama. And that only coming up with a candidate who is less than exciting but still clearly playing in a much higher league than trump deserves some sort of punishment. 

Does. Not. Compute.

I think the left actually needs to be held accountable by the voters for the looting and rioting and destruction they have allowed by their supporters. They sat by and just watched it burn and even bailed some of them out of jail for way too long. I do hope the voters hold them accountable for this. 

[homersapien 11,386]

Interesting and informative graphs.

Reliable polls show that Biden won the debate — so those aren’t what Trump’s allies are highlighting

Philip Bump

September 30, 2020 at 10:06 a.m. EDT

Shortly after the first presidential debate ended on Tuesday night, Fox News’s Sean Hannity seized upon two online surveys to declare victory for his friend President Trump.

One, from Telemundo, had Trump winning by a 2-to-1 margin, he said. Another, from WGN, had a similarly lopsided result.

“Early reviews, instant response, instant polls,” Hannity said. “I’m sure the, you know, the mainstream media will have corrupt polls, as they always do, but those are the two flash polls that we have already.”

The press secretary Trump actually pays made a similar argument on Twitter.

VERDICT: President @realDonaldTrump WINS ‼️

CSPAN: ✅ Trump (53% Trump; 29% Biden)

Telemundo: ✅ Trump (66% Trump; 34% Biden)

CNN: ✅ Trump (3 votes Trump; 1 vote Biden of decided voters) pic.twitter.com/eCaskcjTNk

— Kayleigh McEnany (@kayleighmcenany) September 30, 2020

The thing about those surveys is that they are garbage. This isn’t meant as disparagement; it’s meant as an accurate reflection of the utility of a survey that consists of a media outlet such as C-SPAN asking people on Twitter whom they think won. A good rule of thumb for a poll is that if anyone can weigh in on it and can encourage other people to participate as well, it’s not going to yield a useful result. When Telemundo announced the results of its informal survey, it deliberately pointed out that the results weren’t scientific, slightly moderating the uselessness of sharing such information in the first place.

Hannity, of course, offered no such qualifier — instead disparaging mainstream media polls that he certainly knew would be less generous in their assessments of the results. (If you enjoy watching Hannity amplify uninformative results to make a political point while we wait for more accurate results to come in, you’re going to want to watch Fox News on election night.)

In short order, scientific polls from reputable outlets were released. While White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany decided to share the results of a CNN reporter asking an on-air focus group whom they planned to support, the network’s actual poll, conducted with SSRS, offered a much bleaker review of Trump’s performance.

Sixty percent of respondents in CNN’s real poll thought that former vice president Joe Biden won the debate. Only 28 percent thought that Trump did.

CNN had asked its respondents before the debate whom they expected to win. Biden had the advantage there, too, by 13 points. Tellingly, Trump was far less likely to have been declared the winner than respondents expected, across party groups. Nearly 9 in 10 Republicans expected Trump to win, for example, but only about two-thirds actually did. Fully a quarter of Republicans thought Biden won, as did 1 in 8 Trump supporters.

It’s worth noting that this was a particularly friendly group of respondents. The network’s David Chalian noted in CNN’s broadcast that the pool of those interviewed skewed more heavily Democratic. That’s probably one reason, coming into the debate, 6 in 10 had favorable views of Biden compared to 4 in 10 who said the same of Trump. After the debate, there wasn’t much change — some slight shifts that aren’t statistically significant.

A poll released by CBS News and conducted by YouGov had a narrower margin of victory for Biden, with 48 percent viewing him as the winner and 41 percent saying that Trump prevailed.

The pollsters also asked respondents, both before and after the debate, how they viewed the candidates on three qualities: physical and mental stamina, honesty or trustworthiness, and the extent to which the candidates seemed to care about voters like them. The debate did little to change people’s views of Trump or Biden on these measures, with Trump maintaining an advantage on stamina and Biden being viewed as more honest and caring.

This is obviously a less clear-cut result than the one CNN offers, but the implication is the same: In a moment in which Trump very much needed a victory to redirect the course of a race that he’s losing, it seems unlikely that he did. His allies can lift up random Twitter polls to argue that he won, but that will probably serve only to bolster the confidence of his existing base of support, not to actually convince undecided voters that he triumphed.

Particularly because, in that CBS-YouGov poll, respondents were more likely to say that their view of Biden improved than worsened — and to say the opposite of Trump.

Over time, as more polls come out evaluating the debate and the race, we’ll have a better sense for what Tuesday night meant. We nonetheless focus on this “who won” question because it seems concrete, a tick forward in the long contest between the candidates. But a debate in which Trump didn’t clearly advance relative to Biden is a loss for the president.

No matter what Hannity says Telemundo said.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/30/reliable-polls-show-that-biden-won-debate-so-those-arent-what-trumps-allies-are-highlighting/

[homersapien 11,386]

9 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I think the left actually needs to be held accountable by the voters for the looting and rioting and destruction they have allowed by their supporters. They sat by and just watched it burn and even bailed some of them out of jail for way too long. I do hope the voters hold them accountable for this. 

Damn man, but that's some embarrassingly irrational thinking.  In fact, it doesn't qualify as thinking at all. 

It makes as much sense as holding the right accountable for the fires in California or the number of hurricanes this year.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

6 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Interesting and informative graphs.

Reliable polls show that Biden won the debate — so those aren’t what Trump’s allies are highlighting

Philip Bump

September 30, 2020 at 10:06 a.m. EDT

Shortly after the first presidential debate ended on Tuesday night, Fox News’s Sean Hannity seized upon two online surveys to declare victory for his friend President Trump.

One, from Telemundo, had Trump winning by a 2-to-1 margin, he said. Another, from WGN, had a similarly lopsided result.

“Early reviews, instant response, instant polls,” Hannity said. “I’m sure the, you know, the mainstream media will have corrupt polls, as they always do, but those are the two flash polls that we have already.”

The press secretary Trump actually pays made a similar argument on Twitter.

VERDICT: President @realDonaldTrump WINS ‼️

CSPAN: ✅ Trump (53% Trump; 29% Biden)

Telemundo: ✅ Trump (66% Trump; 34% Biden)

CNN: ✅ Trump (3 votes Trump; 1 vote Biden of decided voters) pic.twitter.com/eCaskcjTNk

— Kayleigh McEnany (@kayleighmcenany) September 30, 2020

The thing about those surveys is that they are garbage. This isn’t meant as disparagement; it’s meant as an accurate reflection of the utility of a survey that consists of a media outlet such as C-SPAN asking people on Twitter whom they think won. A good rule of thumb for a poll is that if anyone can weigh in on it and can encourage other people to participate as well, it’s not going to yield a useful result. When Telemundo announced the results of its informal survey, it deliberately pointed out that the results weren’t scientific, slightly moderating the uselessness of sharing such information in the first place.

Hannity, of course, offered no such qualifier — instead disparaging mainstream media polls that he certainly knew would be less generous in their assessments of the results. (If you enjoy watching Hannity amplify uninformative results to make a political point while we wait for more accurate results to come in, you’re going to want to watch Fox News on election night.)

In short order, scientific polls from reputable outlets were released. While White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany decided to share the results of a CNN reporter asking an on-air focus group whom they planned to support, the network’s actual poll, conducted with SSRS, offered a much bleaker review of Trump’s performance.

Sixty percent of respondents in CNN’s real poll thought that former vice president Joe Biden won the debate. Only 28 percent thought that Trump did.

CNN had asked its respondents before the debate whom they expected to win. Biden had the advantage there, too, by 13 points. Tellingly, Trump was far less likely to have been declared the winner than respondents expected, across party groups. Nearly 9 in 10 Republicans expected Trump to win, for example, but only about two-thirds actually did. Fully a quarter of Republicans thought Biden won, as did 1 in 8 Trump supporters.

It’s worth noting that this was a particularly friendly group of respondents. The network’s David Chalian noted in CNN’s broadcast that the pool of those interviewed skewed more heavily Democratic. That’s probably one reason, coming into the debate, 6 in 10 had favorable views of Biden compared to 4 in 10 who said the same of Trump. After the debate, there wasn’t much change — some slight shifts that aren’t statistically significant.

A poll released by CBS News and conducted by YouGov had a narrower margin of victory for Biden, with 48 percent viewing him as the winner and 41 percent saying that Trump prevailed.

The pollsters also asked respondents, both before and after the debate, how they viewed the candidates on three qualities: physical and mental stamina, honesty or trustworthiness, and the extent to which the candidates seemed to care about voters like them. The debate did little to change people’s views of Trump or Biden on these measures, with Trump maintaining an advantage on stamina and Biden being viewed as more honest and caring.

This is obviously a less clear-cut result than the one CNN offers, but the implication is the same: In a moment in which Trump very much needed a victory to redirect the course of a race that he’s losing, it seems unlikely that he did. His allies can lift up random Twitter polls to argue that he won, but that will probably serve only to bolster the confidence of his existing base of support, not to actually convince undecided voters that he triumphed.

Particularly because, in that CBS-YouGov poll, respondents were more likely to say that their view of Biden improved than worsened — and to say the opposite of Trump.

Over time, as more polls come out evaluating the debate and the race, we’ll have a better sense for what Tuesday night meant. We nonetheless focus on this “who won” question because it seems concrete, a tick forward in the long contest between the candidates. But a debate in which Trump didn’t clearly advance relative to Biden is a loss for the president.

No matter what Hannity says Telemundo said.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/30/reliable-polls-show-that-biden-won-debate-so-those-arent-what-trumps-allies-are-highlighting/

FAKE NEWS!  BIASED MEDIA!

Just getting that out of the way.

[homersapien 11,386]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

FAKE NEWS!  BIASED MEDIA!

Just getting that out of the way.

I like how Trump beat Biden for having the "needed stamina" (next to last chart). 

That's like giving kudos to a 2 year old for a very prolonged temper tantrum. 

[SocialCircle 570]

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Damn man, but that's some embarrassingly irrational thinking.  In fact, it doesn't qualify as thinking at all. 

It makes as much sense as holding the right accountable for the fires in California or the number of hurricanes this year.

Or holding one man responsible for all of the COVID-19 deaths in the US

[McLoofus 35,182]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Damn man, but that's some embarrassingly irrational thinking.  In fact, it doesn't qualify as thinking at all. 

It makes as much sense as holding the right accountable for the fires in California or the number of hurricanes this year.

I'd say your task is sisyphean, but I kinda want Social to be able to understand that I'm insulting him. 

[ArgoEagle 1,790]

39 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Trump is not a traditional anything nor a Constitutionalist of any stripe.

Again, your opinion, not mine.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I like how Trump beat Biden for having the "needed stamina" (next to last chart). 

That's like giving kudos to a 2 year old for a very prolonged temper tantrum. 

None of us have the stamina to deal with a septuagenarian toddler loudly and obnoxiously babbling nonsense for 90 minutes straight.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

The Commission on Presidential Debates issues statement :

“The Commission on Presidential Debates sponsors televised debates for the benefit of the American electorate. Last night’s debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues.  The CPD will be carefully considering the changes that it will adopt and will announce those measures shortly.  The Commission is grateful to Chris Wallace for the professionalism and skill he brought to last night’s debate and intends to ensure that additional tools to maintain order are in place for the remaining debates.”

https://www.alabamanews.net/2020/09/30/commission-on-presidential-debates-issues-statement-after-last-nights-trump-biden-debate/

My guess is there will be come mic muting available to future moderators.

[SocialCircle 570]

43 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

FAKE NEWS!  BIASED MEDIA!

Just getting that out of the way.

I thought the Telemondo poll was very shocking. 

[Leftfield 2,608]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I thought the Telemondo poll was very shocking. 

Congratulations. You get my first-ever facepalm.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I thought the Telemondo poll was very shocking. 

Yeah, you tend to get skewed results from just asking folks what they think on Twitter.

[SocialCircle 570]

53 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

FAKE NEWS!  BIASED MEDIA!

Just getting that out of the way.

I heard today that Hillary was thought to have won all 3 debates last cycle vs Trump based on these polls.  

[homersapien 11,386]

54 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Or holding one man responsible for all of the COVID-19 deaths in the US

Wrong, false equivalence.

That man (not a political or ideological group) as POTUS had the responsibility of formulating our country's pandemic response.  Compared to the response of every other advanced country, he failed miserably. If anything, he was counter productive.

While one cannot say for sure he is personally responsible for any given death, he is certainly responsible for 10's of thousands of additional deaths due to his piss poor performance. (And note that we still do not have a coordinated federal response.)

It's perfectly rational to hold Trump responsible for our countries poor pandemic response. It was his job to organize one.

[Leftfield 2,608]

7 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I heard today that Hillary was thought to have won all 3 debates last cycle vs Trump based on these polls.  

I've always said the Political forums need their own a4e. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

People's opinion of the candidates is a lot closer than I expected. 

 

There were no winners last night, only losers. The American people being the biggest loser out of all this.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

9 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Wrong, false equivalence.

That man (not a political or ideological group) as POTUS had the responsibility of formulating our country's pandemic response.  Compared to the response of every other advanced country, he failed miserably. If anything, he was counter productive.

While one cannot say for sure he is personally responsible for any given death, he is certainly responsible for 10's of thousands of additional deaths due to his piss poor performance. (And note that we still do not have a coordinated federal response.)

It's perfectly rational to hold Trump responsible for our countries poor pandemic response. It was his job to organize one.

Yeah, when you have a country as advanced and prosperous as ours that has only 4-5% of the world's population but 25% of the world's COVID deaths, that's a leadership problem.  It's having no coherent plan.

[SocialCircle 570]

18 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Wrong, false equivalence.

That man (not a political or ideological group) as POTUS had the responsibility of formulating our country's pandemic response.  Compared to the response of every other advanced country, he failed miserably. If anything, he was counter productive.

While one cannot say for sure he is personally responsible for any given death, he is certainly responsible for 10's of thousands of additional deaths due to his piss poor performance. (And note that we still do not have a coordinated federal response.)

It's perfectly rational to hold Trump responsible for our countries poor pandemic response. It was his job to organize one.

That is not what Fauci said about Trump under oath. The worst response to the pandemic came from those govs (all Dems) who put elderly folks with Covid-19 back in to those facilities with other elderly folks who did not have the virus. And also to those govs who continue to keep things shut down in their states for too long after the science says they should open back up.