Pence has classified documents. Honestly, does anyone actually believe that there is a President or Vice President that doesn't have some documents?

[Gowebb11 9,389]

10 minutes ago, GoAU said:

This has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats, and has to do instead with the “ruling class” being held to different standards than our military.  
 

Amen. I knew of soldiers who suffered bad consequences for mishandling documents. I want our Commanders in Chief to lead to the standard they expect others to follow.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by Gowebb11

[homersapien 11,461]

13 hours ago, GoAU said:

Actually on this topic I have no partisan leanings at all, and have been very consistent in my stance.  Just like I’ve said about Trump and Biden, I will say the same for Pence - unless the context of the documents (not content) can be shared, we have to assume they do threaten national security.  That being the case, all 3 should be prosecuted.  The same standards we hold out military members to can and should used for elected officials.   

Hillary took very intentional actions to circumvent controls hide activity and should be prosecuted even more than the other 3.  
 

This has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats, and has to do instead with the “ruling class” being held to different standards than our military.  
 

I am, however, deeply enjoying watching Biden eat copious amounts of crow for his comments on classified documents.   But that doesn’t affect how I think it should be handled within the legal system.  

Prosecution with the lack of knowledge or intent is not appropriate in these cases.

[homersapien 11,461]

18 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Maybe not, but I sleep well at night. Do you think that the American People will just allow this re-emergence of the privileged class go? Maybe that is what this whole trump thing has been about?

 

Demonstrating outrage by electing one of the most egregious examples of the privileged class president?   

Edited January 30, 2023 by homersapien

[AU9377 5,051]

16 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

Amen. I knew of soldiers who suffered bad consequences for mishandling documents. I want our Commanders in Chief to lead to the standard they expect others to follow.  

You cannot honestly believe that there is no difference between the number and kind of classified documents that cross the desk of a President or Vice President and documents being handled by an enlisted person with a clearance.    Some of these documents with "classified markings" are personal notes made by that executive.  Do you believe that they file their own papers?  They don't.  They never have.  Is it mishandling a document if the person doesn't and has no reason to know that it has been mishandled?  Overall, the law says that it is not.  That is the difference between both the person who inadverdently finds themselves in possession of the documents and the content of the documents in question.  It isn't as simple as something being marked classified being found in someone's possession and them being charged. 

[aubiefifty 16,931]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:50 PM, I_M4_AU said:

And neither had the right to have them in the first place.

yes they did. they did not have the right to leave them lying around. but if you are trying to compare them with trump it i a bad look. they give him months to give the docs back. he refused. so they told him they were coming and he bent it all out of shape with his normal lying crap. he was crying about how unfair they did him compare4d to joe. joe did the right thing and trump did the trump bullcrap. if an enlisted man had lost docs because of carelessness when i was in the service they went to prison. and i was stationed at the pentagon so we were read the riot act on that stuff. so lets summarize. biden and i assume all others compled. trump did not. like the turd he is.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/retired-air-force-intel-boss-192536128.html

[AU9377 5,051]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/retired-air-force-intel-boss-192536128.html

Willful retention is the key, in addition to the information being "top secret."   

One thing is clear.. We over classify on a grand scale in this country.  That over classification has protected governmental action time and time again that the public, in a democracy, should have access to.

[DKW 86 7,451]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

Demonstrating outrage by electing one of the most egregious examples of the privileged class president?   

But he is hated by the Privileged Class...My enemies enemy is my friend sort of thing, maybe.

Edited January 30, 2023 by DKW 86

[DKW 86 7,451]

3 hours ago, AU9377 said:

You cannot honestly believe that there is no difference between the number and kind of classified documents that cross the desk of a President or Vice President and documents being handled by an enlisted person with a clearance.    Some of these documents with "classified markings" are personal notes made by that executive.  Do you believe that they file their own papers?  They don't.  They never have.  Is it mishandling a document if the person doesn't and has no reason to know that it has been mishandled?  Overall, the law says that it is not.  That is the difference between both the person who inadverdently finds themselves in possession of the documents and the content of the documents in question.  It isn't as simple as something being marked classified being found in someone's possession and them being charged. 

Yes, it is indeed that simple. It is as simple as a being competent. It is as simple as one standard for all people. 

It really is just that simple. 

[DKW 86 7,451]

3 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

yes they did. they did not have the right to leave them lying around. but if you are trying to compare them with trump it i a bad look. they give him months to give the docs back. he refused. so they told him they were coming and he bent it all out of shape with his normal lying crap. he was crying about how unfair they did him compare4d to joe. joe did the right thing and trump did the trump bullcrap. if an enlisted man had lost docs because of carelessness when i was in the service they went to prison. and i was stationed at the pentagon so we were read the riot act on that stuff. so lets summarize. biden and i assume all others compled. trump did not. like the turd he is.

But even having the docs is against the same law as well. They have no excuse.

IE: They should be prosecuted for 1-2 Laws Broken, trump for more. BUT THEY SHOULD ALL BE PROSECUTED.

[DKW 86 7,451]

3 hours ago, AU9377 said:

You cannot honestly believe that there is no difference between the number and kind of classified documents that cross the desk of a President or Vice President and documents being handled by an enlisted person with a clearance.    Some of these documents with "classified markings" are personal notes made by that executive.  Do you believe that they file their own papers?  They don't.  They never have.  Is it mishandling a document if the person doesn't and has no reason to know that it has been mishandled?  Overall, the law says that it is not.  That is the difference between both the person who inadverdently finds themselves in possession of the documents and the content of the documents in question.  It isn't as simple as something being marked classified being found in someone's possession and them being charged. 

You do realize that some enlisteds handle far more classified docs than even the President? Like I said, I was at a site where we generated 5-6K docs a day. 

[DKW 86 7,451]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

Prosecution with the lack of knowledge or intent is not appropriate in these cases.

Firmly disagree. All should be prosecuted or we should simply stop labelling anything classified.

[DKW 86 7,451]

Majority of voters, including Democrats, believe Biden’s mishandling of classified documents is a scandal

A Rasmussen poll out Monday, and exclusively revealed here, shows that almost three-quarters of voters (72%) regard the president’s handling of classified records as a scandal. That includes a majority (55%) of Democrats. 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/29/majority-of-voters-believe-bidens-mishandling-of-classified-documents-is-a-scandal/

 

[homersapien 11,461]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

But he is hated by the Privileged Class...My enemies enemy is my friend sort of thing, maybe.

That may be true, but it's irrelevant to the marketing image he's created with his followers. 

In fact, it sort of proves my point.  Trump's "popularism" is total marketing. He's no different than the evangelicals who are in it for the money and themselves.  

[aubiefifty 16,931]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

But even having the docs is against the same law as well. They have no excuse.

IE: They should be prosecuted for 1-2 Laws Broken, trump for more. BUT THEY SHOULD ALL BE PROSECUTED.

i said that in an earlier thread bro. my point being if I had done it i would have gone to prison and lost voting and guns rights much less probably not ever getting a decent paying job.

[homersapien 11,461]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

Firmly disagree. All should be prosecuted or we should simply stop labelling anything classified.

Well, I think the law is actually on my side - Intent and knowledge a required component in at least some laws.  And in particular some of the laws covering possession of classified documents.  (I have posted the reference several times already.)  Military regulations/laws may vary.

I'll let one of the actual lawyer's weigh in. 

[aubiefifty 16,931]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

You do realize that some enlisteds handle far more classified docs than even the President? Like I said, I was at a site where we generated 5-6K docs a day. 

i dealt with several hundred classified docs when i was at the pentagon. i had to sort them for pick up to the right folks. i cannot swear on it david but i believe the crisis center i worked at everyone had to have a top secret clearance. those that did not had to have an escort at all times. and if i had to go the intelligence section i had to have an escort and i had a top secret clearance. and those guys got the really good stuff like the presidents and joint chiefs of staff got. so they did not play. again if i had done what any of those cats did i would be in prison. but they are not going to do a damn thing to ANY president nor vice president so all of this is just political crap. but it is not fair.

[aubiefifty 16,931]

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, I think the law is actually on my side - Intent and knowledge a required component in at least some laws.  And in particular some of the laws covering possession of classified documents.  (I have posted the reference several times already.)  Military regulations/laws may vary.

I'll let one of the actual lawyer's weigh in. 

were you in the military homie?

 

[GoAU 1,603]

19 hours ago, homersapien said:

Prosecution with the lack of knowledge or intent is not appropriate in these cases.

I assume you are referring to my comment about Hillary being prosecuted?  
 

Im trying to understand your post here - are you referring to her knowledge of the law, or my knowledge of the situation?   If you are referring to my knowledge, I am basing this off the FBI / Comey investigation.  She clearly set up personal servers to circumvent the .gov system - this was not disputed by anyone.   Comey (wrongly) chose not to prosecute, but the facts of her actions with the servers are undisputed.  If you are referring to her not having knowledge- ignorance of the law is not a defense in the handling of classified documents.   And if you believe she did it know, I can assure you she had more than enough training and advisers to keep her from making a “mistake”.  
 

Her “intent” was also very clear - these were not accidental steps - including her actions to cover it up.  
 

If you are referring to something else, please clarify.  

[DKW 86 7,451]

12 hours ago, homersapien said:

That may be true, but it's irrelevant to the marketing image he's created with his followers. 

In fact, it sort of proves my point.  Trump's "popularism" is total marketing. He's no different than the evangelicals who are in it for the money and themselves.  

Agreed. And the same folks are falling for the tripe all the more. They never learn. trumps been at it 36 years now. You would think someone would figure it all out but no. If trump were good to get ratings again, he would live on MSNBC and the View. He has always been the same. Just some people took till 2016 to see thru him. I have never had that problem with him.

 

[DKW 86 7,451]

12 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

i said that in an earlier thread bro. my point being if I had done it i would have gone to prison and lost voting and guns rights much less probably not ever getting a decent paying job.

I know, I read it. We agree 100% here. Its all these folks that just lay down and WANT there to be a tiered legal system in the US. One tier for peasants and one for self declared Elites.

[DKW 86 7,451]

12 hours ago, homersapien said:

Well, I think the law is actually on my side - Intent and knowledge a required component in at least some laws.  And in particular some of the laws covering possession of classified documents.  (I have posted the reference several times already.)  Military regulations/laws may vary.

I'll let one of the actual lawyer's weigh in. 

Intent never mattered in all the cases sited by fiddy and me. Intent never mattered one bit.

[DKW 86 7,451]

12 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

i dealt with several hundred classified docs when i was at the pentagon. i had to sort them for pick up to the right folks. i cannot swear on it david but i believe the crisis center i worked at everyone had to have a top secret clearance. those that did not had to have an escort at all times. and if i had to go the intelligence section i had to have an escort and i had a top secret clearance. and those guys got the really good stuff like the presidents and joint chiefs of staff got. so they did not play. again if i had done what any of those cats did i would be in prison. but they are not going to do a damn thing to ANY president nor vice president so all of this is just political crap. but it is not fair.

Exactly.  Two or more tiered legal system. There are Founding Fathers turning over in their graves today.

[aubiefifty 16,931]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

I know, I read it. We agree 100% here. Its all these folks that just lay down and WANT there to be a tiered legal system in the US. One tier for peasants and one for self declared Elites.

just so you understand and i believe you do is non of the three mentioned in all this will see prison because of it. we seem to let our guys get away with stuff when i think a prison sentence or two would do wonders for politics in america. hell right now look at whats happening. trump and others believe they are mostly untouchable. if we would hold our pols accountable we would be better off.

[AU9377 5,051]

8 hours ago, GoAU said:

I assume you are referring to my comment about Hillary being prosecuted?  
 

Im trying to understand your post here - are you referring to her knowledge of the law, or my knowledge of the situation?   If you are referring to my knowledge, I am basing this off the FBI / Comey investigation.  She clearly set up personal servers to circumvent the .gov system - this was not disputed by anyone.   Comey (wrongly) chose not to prosecute, but the facts of her actions with the servers are undisputed.  If you are referring to her not having knowledge- ignorance of the law is not a defense in the handling of classified documents.   And if you believe she did it know, I can assure you she had more than enough training and advisers to keep her from making a “mistake”.  
 

Her “intent” was also very clear - these were not accidental steps - including her actions to cover it up.  
 

If you are referring to something else, please clarify.  

Had Hillary been charged, they would have never gotten a conviction.  That is the core of why she wasn't charged.  In my opinion, she would have been elected President had charges been brought because it would have been viewed as a political witch hunt and people don't respond well to those.  Look no farther than Bill's re-election landslide.