Pence has classified documents. Honestly, does anyone actually believe that there is a President or Vice President that doesn't have some documents?

[AU9377 5,037]

Classified Documents Found at Pence’s Indiana Home (msn.com)

I believe that it is important to keep these things in context.  Neither Pence or Biden held documents after their discovery.

[I_M4_AU 7,989]

10 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Classified Documents Found at Pence’s Indiana Home (msn.com)

I believe that it is important to keep these things in context.  Neither Pence or Biden held documents after their discovery.

And neither had the right to have them in the first place.

[homersapien 11,445]

On 1/24/2023 at 1:50 PM, I_M4_AU said:

And neither had the right to have them in the first place.

Which is exactly why both reported it.

Edited January 26, 2023 by homersapien

[GoAU 1,600]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Which is exactly why both reported it.

Biden reported it - right after the story broke, or was about to break.   Do you really believe he just stumbled across them while cleaning out the closet / garage?

[AU9377 5,037]

14 hours ago, GoAU said:

Biden reported it - right after the story broke, or was about to break.   Do you really believe he just stumbled across them while cleaning out the closet / garage?

He reported it to the Archive when they were found.  An attorney was reportedly overseeing files from his private office in DC, which Biden leased before becoming President, being moved to another location when he discovered the documents inside an enveloped in his file cabinet.  There is no dispute that he alerted the Archive to their existence.  Had he not done so, this would have never been discussed.

[DKW 86 7,440]

16 hours ago, AU9377 said:

He reported it to the Archive when they were found.  An attorney was reportedly overseeing files from his private office in DC, which Biden leased before becoming President, being moved to another location when he discovered the documents inside an enveloped in his file cabinet.  There is no dispute that he alerted the Archive to their existence.  Had he not done so, this would have never been discussed.

He alerted the Archive, not a legal entity. This is part of what the issue was all about.  The Adm also did not make this known until after a whistleblower told CBS News

edited...

Edited January 27, 2023 by DKW 86

[AU9377 5,037]

20 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

He alerted the Archive, not a legal entity. This is part of what the issue was all about.  The Adm also did not make this lnow. Until after a whistleblower told CBS News

The National Archive and Records Administration was the appropriate entity to notify.  Honestly, the issue isn't now and never has been about prosecuting a President or former President for inadverdently being in possession of documents with classified markings.  The issue has found importance due to Trump's unwillingness to turn over documents with classified markings that were known to be in his possession. 

There would not be a special prosecutor appointed to look into the Biden documents but for the DOJ wanting to go the extra mile to show impartiality with regard to the issue.  I'm certain that an inspection of documents and personal belongings of any former high ranking official would produce some documents that are in their possession that have classified markings.

Some of the documents are hand written notes.  It doesn't take a year, or even 3 months, to determine what kind of documents exist and whether their classification is warranted.  However, I have no doubt that we will spend millions for appointed prosecutors to hire staffs large enough to take up a floor of a large city high rise to tell us what we already know today.  In the end, nothing outside a report will come of it and people will bitch about it until something else nonsensical takes up the air time.

[homersapien 11,445]

18 hours ago, GoAU said:

Biden reported it - right after the story broke, or was about to break.   Do you really believe he just stumbled across them while cleaning out the closet / garage?

I don't know how or who found them, or when.

But apparently, he reported them when no one else knew he had them.

[homersapien 11,445]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

.....The issue has found importance due to Trump's unwillingness to turn over documents with classified markings that were known to be in his possession. 

There would not be a special prosecutor appointed to look into the Biden documents but for the DOJ wanting to go the extra mile to show impartiality with regard to the issue.  I'm certain that an inspection of documents and personal belongings of any former high ranking official would produce some documents that are in their possession that have classified markings.

Some of the documents are hand written notes.  It doesn't take a year, or even 3 months, to determine what kind of documents exist and whether their classification is warranted.  However, I have no doubt that we will spend millions for appointed prosecutors to hire staffs large enough to take up a floor of a large city high rise to tell us what we already know today.  In the end, nothing outside a report will come of it and people will bitch about it until something else nonsensical takes up the air time.

While I understand why Garland did it, that was a mistake on his part. 

Not only was it unnecessary, it served to further confuse the average citizen (who doesn't follow this stuff closely) into thinking the Biden and Trump cases are equivalent.

Now, does he appoint a special prosecutor in Pence's case?  Where does it stop?

Edited January 26, 2023 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,440]

15 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The National Archive and Records Administration was the appropriate entity to notify.  Honestly, the issue isn't now and never has been about prosecuting a President or former President for inadverdently being in possession of documents with classified markings.  The issue has found importance due to Trump's unwillingness to turn over documents with classified markings that were known to be in his possession. 

14+ Years of ****ups isnt "Inadvertent." It is a business model. When it comes to classified documents, let me 100% assure you that there are 100s in Leavenworth at this time for "Inadvertently" losing or misplacing documents. This is plain and simple two or even three sets of rules for the peasants (us) and the Elites in DC. 

There would not be a special prosecutor appointed to look into the Biden documents but for the DOJ wanting to go the extra mile to show impartiality with regard to the issue.  I'm certain that an inspection of documents and personal belongings of any former high ranking official would produce some documents that are in their possession that have classified markings.

Hur was appointed to shut up the press until he makes a statement in several months, that statement will read almost word for word: "PJB was egregiously bad at handling documents, blah blah blah...and while this is bad, it doesnt rise to the standard of prosecution." It was in the cards Day One. It is just rinse and repeat time for those in DC who are NEVER HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ANYTHING. Biden will be given a clean bill of health on or about October 15th 2023 when he will then kickoff his campaign for President again.

Some of the documents are hand written notes.  It doesn't take a year, or even 3 months, to determine what kind of documents exist and whether their classification is warranted.  However, I have no doubt that we will spend millions for appointed prosecutors to hire staffs large enough to take up a floor of a large city high rise to tell us what we already know today.  In the end, nothing outside a report will come of it and people will bitch about it until something else nonsensical takes up the air time.

Jesus, just STHU. Brother, i worked with classified documents for years while in service. At least half or more of all classified documents are handwritten notes from meetings, classes, etc. One facility I worked at generated 5-6K handwritten documents every day of the week.

With all due respect, Brother, when you dont have a damn clue WTF you are talking about, you need to shut up.

We live in a time and country where regular people go to prison for mishandling one document outside of Washington and those in Washington are so incompetent that they can literally mishandle thousands of documents for decades and they wont even get a slap on the wrist. And you are obviously TOTALLY OKAY THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE DECLARED THEMSELVES TO BE OUR MASTERS. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/justice-department-classified-info-hotel-home-sentence/index.html

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-air-force-contractor-pleads-guilty-illegally-taking-2500-pages-classified-information

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-defense-contractor-sentenced-unlawfully-retaining-classified-information

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/31/nsa-employee-charged-mishandling-classified-material.html

Edited January 27, 2023 by DKW 86

[autigeremt 6,688]

The protected class. 

[GoAU 1,600]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:40 PM, homersapien said:

I don't know how or who found them, or when.

But apparently, he reported them when no one else knew he had them.

From what I read, he reported it about the same time the whistleblower talked to the news.  He was just trying to get in front of it.  I don’t believe he had any intention of reporting it until he realized it was getting out any way.  
 

There is ZERO chance he forgot he had the documents.  He just got caught.  

[homersapien 11,445]

14 hours ago, GoAU said:

From what I read, he reported it about the same time the whistleblower talked to the news.  He was just trying to get in front of it.  I don’t believe he had any intention of reporting it until he realized it was getting out any way.  
 

There is ZERO chance he forgot he had the documents.  He just got caught.  

Same for Pence?  Evidence for that in either case?

Obviously, you have a partisan ax to grind.

[AU9377 5,037]

On 1/27/2023 at 4:37 AM, DKW 86 said:

With all due respect, Brother, when you dont have a damn clue WTF you are talking about, you need to shut up.

We live in a time and country where regular people go to prison for mishandling one document outside of Washington and those in Washington are so incompetent that they can literally mishandle thousands of documents for decades and they wont even get a slap on the wrist. And you are obviously TOTALLY OKAY THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE DECLARED THEMSELVES TO BE OUR MASTERS. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/11/politics/justice-department-classified-info-hotel-home-sentence/index.html

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-air-force-contractor-pleads-guilty-illegally-taking-2500-pages-classified-information

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-defense-contractor-sentenced-unlawfully-retaining-classified-information

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/31/nsa-employee-charged-mishandling-classified-material.html

https://verdict.justia.com/2023/01/18/neither-biden-nor-trump-will-be-charged-with-any-unlawful-conduct-resulting-from-their-possession-of-classified-documents-but-for-very-different-reasons

The problem and hurdle in prosecuting on the facts we have now is that there needs to be a willful taking of documents, in addition to knowingly retaining them and using them in some way.  The facts are simply not similar in the cases you cite above.

Edited January 28, 2023 by AU9377

[AU9377 5,037]

15 hours ago, GoAU said:

From what I read, he reported it about the same time the whistleblower talked to the news.  He was just trying to get in front of it.  I don’t believe he had any intention of reporting it until he realized it was getting out any way.  
 

There is ZERO chance he forgot he had the documents.  He just got caught.  

Documents like hand written notes?  Zero chance?  Really?

 

 

[DKW 86 7,440]

4 hours ago, AU9377 said:

https://verdict.justia.com/2023/01/18/neither-biden-nor-trump-will-be-charged-with-any-unlawful-conduct-resulting-from-their-possession-of-classified-documents-but-for-very-different-reasons

The problem and hurdle in prosecuting on the facts we have now is that there needs to be a willful taking of documents, in addition to knowingly retaining them and using them in some way.  The facts are simply not similar in the cases you cite above.

Again, wrong as can be. In the cases I sited, there was little to any proof or even accusation that "a willful taking of documents, in addition to knowingly retaining them and using them in some way." I dont know where you get your facts/info from, but they dont understand this at all.

[AU9377 5,037]

5 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Again, wrong as can be. In the cases I sited, there was little to any proof or even accusation that "a willful taking of documents, in addition to knowingly retaining them and using them in some way." I dont know where you get your facts/info from, but they dont understand this at all.

There has never been a prosecution of a high ranking official

 

5 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Again, wrong as can be. In the cases I sited, there was little to any proof or even accusation that "a willful taking of documents, in addition to knowingly retaining them and using them in some way." I dont know where you get your facts/info from, but they dont understand this at all.

Not wrong at all.  You don't seem to appreciate the difference between a sitting President or even a former President and Vice President and a civil service employee with a clearance.  It is a lot more complicated than just stating that everyone should be treated the same.  Everyone is not the same.  For example, a member of the military that discusses classified information with someone without the clearance needed is committing a crime.  In contrast, a President can, at any time, decide to discuss any matter he or she chooses with whoever he chooses if he believes it is in the best interests to do so. He doesn't have to get it declassified before discussing the subject.

We also need to know the nature of the documents.  Just because something is classified does not mean that it contains  top secret information.  Some of the things marked classified are public knowledge.  They classification system is clearly not working.  Was Mike Pence or Joe Biden supposed to comb thru every page of every file that was in their office when they left?  Isn't there a system of documentation that dockets every document with the classification markings?  Who dropped the ball?  The Nat Archives had no idea any documents were missing from Biden and Pence's terms in office.  However, they had a documented list of documents they had not received from Trump.  Although that list was still incomplete.

[DKW 86 7,440]

7 hours ago, AU9377 said:

There has never been a prosecution of a high ranking official

 

Not wrong at all.  You don't seem to appreciate the difference between a sitting President or even a former President and Vice President and a civil service employee with a clearance.  It is a lot more complicated than just stating that everyone should be treated the same.  Everyone is not the same.  For example, a member of the military that discusses classified information with someone without the clearance needed is committing a crime.  In contrast, a President can, at any time, decide to discuss any matter he or she chooses with whoever he chooses if he believes it is in the best interests to do so. He doesn't have to get it declassified before discussing the subject.

We also need to know the nature of the documents.  Just because something is classified does not mean that it contains  top secret information.  Some of the things marked classified are public knowledge.  They classification system is clearly not working.  AGREED Was Mike Pence or Joe Biden supposed to comb thru every page of every file that was in their office when they left?  Isn't there a system of documentation that dockets every document with the classification markings?  We spend $18BN/year tracking this stuff and it only fails in Washington DC. Who dropped the ball?  The Nat Archives had no idea any documents were missing from Biden and Pence's terms in office.  However, they had a documented list of documents they had not received from Trump.  Although that list was still incomplete.

Again, wrong. I am forcing you to see that there should NEVER be a difference between an enlisted person and the President. I absolutely see the fact that those in charge see themselves as superior to the Peasants. That is in fact my whole point. You dont see that I am SHOUTING loudly that that is wrong. See Homers Jon Stewart Video. It is now canon in DC. There is this 2-3 tier legal system in place and it must be dealt with.

Edited January 29, 2023 by DKW 86

[AU9377 5,037]

10 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Again, wrong. I am forcing you to see that there should NEVER be a difference between an enlisted person and the President. I absolutely see the fact that those in charge see themselves as superior to the Peasants. That is in fact my whole point. You dont see that I am SHOUTING loudly that that is wrong. See Homers Jon Stewart Video. It is now canon in DC. There is this 2-3 tier legal system in place and it must be dealt with.

I realize that is your point.  I also recognize that you mean well.  I just don't see it as being realistic.

[DKW 86 7,440]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

I realize that is your point.  I also recognize that you mean well.  I just don't see it as being realistic.

Maybe not, but I sleep well at night. Do you think that the American People will just allow this re-emergence of the privileged class go? Maybe that is what this whole trump thing has been about?

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by DKW 86

[Gowebb11 9,368]

I handled classified documents at the highest level during my military service without mishandling them. One, I handled them the way I was trained. Two, I don’t think I’m above the law. Unfortunately, our political class on both sides are convinced they are above the law and act accordingly. We are much closer to being a monarchy or oligarchy than a democracy. 

[slot canyon 1,344]

At some level it would seem that The National Archive and Records Administration should have a better handle on this stuff.  I realize there may be a lot of stuff labeled as "classified" but it is my impression that they are supposed to be responsible for keeping track. Maybe like a library.  1) verify clearance 2) check out classified document 3) view in a secure area 4) return document from secure area after viewing.  5) keep activity log related to who and what.

[AU9377 5,037]

1 minute ago, Gowebb11 said:

I handled classified documents at the highest level during my military service without mishandling them. One, I handled them the way I was trained. Two, I don’t think I’m above the law. Unfortunately, our political class on both sides are convinced they are above the law and act accordingly. We are much closer to being a monarchy or oligarchy than a democracy. 

I think that is a pretty big stretch.  I don't disagree that there are some politicians that believe they are above the law.  However, I don't think this is an example of that overall.  Someone could argue that Trump's actions are evidence of that, but neither Pence or Biden have acted as though they are above the law in any way.  All documents with "classified markings" are not equal.  In the hyper polarized political world we live in today, people forget that.  That is why prosecutions and the actual legal penalties vary so greatly between cases. 

When some people hear the words classified documents, they think of information that is only viewed in a secure room and that is closely monitored.  Most classified documents are not treated that way because the information they contain doesn't merit that treatment.  For example, there are classified documents that discuss the votes of the electoral college in the last election.  All of that information is known to the public, yet it is a classified document.

[Gowebb11 9,368]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I think that is a pretty big stretch.  I don't disagree that there are some politicians that believe they are above the law.  However, I don't think this is an example of that overall.  Someone could argue that Trump's actions are evidence of that, but neither Pence or Biden have acted as though they are above the law in any way.  All documents with "classified markings" are not equal.  In the hyper polarized political world we live in today, people forget that.  That is why prosecutions and the actual legal penalties vary so greatly between cases. 

When some people hear the words classified documents, they think of information that is only viewed in a secure room and that is closely monitored.  Most classified documents are not treated that way because the information they contain doesn't merit that treatment.  For example, there are classified documents that discuss the votes of the electoral college in the last election.  All of that information is known to the public, yet it is a classified document.

I did this for a living for a while at the highest level. What classified at any level means: protect and store properly. You don’t store them in a shoebox at your home. These guys have 24/7 staff members to help them with this and should know better and do better. I wish they would set a better example. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Gowebb11

[GoAU 1,600]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:33 AM, homersapien said:

Same for Pence?  Evidence for that in either case?

Obviously, you have a partisan ax to grind.

Actually on this topic I have no partisan leanings at all, and have been very consistent in my stance.  Just like I’ve said about Trump and Biden, I will say the same for Pence - unless the context of the documents (not content) can be shared, we have to assume they do threaten national security.  That being the case, all 3 should be prosecuted.  The same standards we hold out military members to can and should used for elected officials.   

Hillary took very intentional actions to circumvent controls hide activity and should be prosecuted even more than the other 3.  
 

This has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats, and has to do instead with the “ruling class” being held to different standards than our military.  
 

I am, however, deeply enjoying watching Biden eat copious amounts of crow for his comments on classified documents.   But that doesn’t affect how I think it should be handled within the legal system.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by GoAU