Is any Country Capitalist/ Is any Country Socialist?

[AuburnNTexas 7,168]

In one of the other sections where there was a Lou Holtz Meme somehow a couple people got off track on Socialism. 

The reality is most countries are a combination of both Capitalism and Socialism like most questions in the Political Forum is is nuanced and it is a matter of Degrees.

Everybody assumes the US is Capitalist myself included but the reality is we are a mixture we have things like Welfare, Food Stamps, Social Security which are Socialistic type programs. We have different government agencies that create rules from wage rules, environmental rules, child labor laws, etc. Because of these things we are not a pure Capitalistic country. That said our base economy is Capitalistic and that is one of the reasons we usually have a strong economy. Depending on party in charger Government rules can change.

Countries Like Venezuela, Nicaragua who we call call Socialist are socialist in name only they are really Dictatorships that use Socialism as a way to control their people. In a True Socialist country you would not have a rich Elite while everybody else was poor. Then you have Countries like China which has found ways to combine Socialism with Capitalism. The government controls many Industries and subsidizes Industries to gain an advantage while also allowing people to start businesses in a similar manner as in a Capitalist society so you have the wealthy elite communist bureaucrats and the wealthy entrepreneurs with a decent school system for the majority. Like many Communist/Socialist countries China is 1st about taking care of the elite (Communist Party Hierarchy0 and controlling people whether they can leave country, worship as they want, genocide against certain groups. 

Socialism is an idea similar to Christianity. In the theoretical Socialist Society the Janitor makes as much as a Doctor or Engineer and all is good. But what happens is human nature if one person is a hard worker and another is not after a while the hard worker gets upset that the lazy person is getting the same as him. That tens to lead to everybody doing just enough to get by and no more. I compare it to Christianity in the sense of if we all follow our Lords words Love your neighbor if a man is cold give him your jacket, etc. The teachings are wonderful but again sadly human nature intervenes.    

Many people point to the Scandinavian countries as a great example of one of the best balances balance between Capitalism and Socialism. Though changing some one of the reasons it has worked so well is the people are very homogenous and the countries are smaller. The US is unique as in the not to distant future we will not be a Country with a majority of any group by race, religion, etc. That makes it harder but on the whole we are doing well and over time as we adjust we will get better.

Of course there is still prejudice in this country but sometimes you have to look at the big picture and the evolution of this country. We started out with Slaves then emancipation but with Jim Crowe Laws, In the mid 1800's there were signs in restaurants no Dogs or Irish allowed.  The KKK was against Blacks and Catholics. Each immigrant group was met with prejudice and often kept out of better paying jobs. As a Kid I remember all the bad words the N word. Spic, Pollock, Wap, etc. I remember in the South enforced segregation, White only water fountains. In the North it wasn't much better just not as open. I have seen tremendous change in my 70+ years. I still see issues redlining, poor schools in certain neighborhoods, lack of good jobs in certain neighborhoods.  But I live in a city where my kids are half Anglo and half Hispanic we have large numbers of Asians (Indians, Chinese, Pakistani, Vietnam, etc.), Hispanics, Africans, African Americans, etc. My kids have good friends in all the groups they are doing a better job then my generation. The Catholic Church I belong to has the community food center because we built a building but all the churches in our town donate food and have volunteers show up and pass out food every week.

We as a country are evolving and getting better we have a long way to go if you are in a bad neighborhood in the inner city or some poor rural areas the evolution is going much to slow but if you are comfortable as I am you see how far we have come and realize how far we have to go but are not as impatient as those who have a reason to be impatient. 

We need the right mixture of Capitalism and Socialism to address the issues if we go to far either way we can make matters worse. We have to find a way to help people in disadvantaged areas to help themselves.   

[icanthearyou 4,463]

We give too much assistance to those at the very top and,,, not enough opportunity to those at the bottom.  There is a reason for our obscene, and growing, inequality.

Relative equality is essential for any system to be productive, peaceful, prosperous.  And, if we could achieve greater income equality, the wealthy would actually become more wealthy.  They would merely have less power.

[AuburnNTexas 7,168]

23 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

We give too much assistance to those at the very top and,,, not enough opportunity to those at the bottom.  There is a reason for our obscene, and growing, inequality.

Relative equality is essential for any system to be productive, peaceful, prosperous.  And, if we could achieve greater income equality, the wealthy would actually become more wealthy.  They would merely have less power.

Some truth to what you say. The more vibrant the middle class the better for everybody. My fear is with changes in technology AI, Robotics, etc. we will have a hard time even keeping middle class employed even in area like IT, Medicine, Food Industry, Construction, etc. If we can't keep middle class employed how can we help the poor move up into the middle class. I see even in fields like medicine by using AI to do analyses the need for Doctors becomes less and less and might even improve diagnosis of diseases then you basically just need technicians to take samples and then run tests. Factories are becoming more and more automated. It is just a matter of time before fast food restaurants will need less and less people because of automation. 3d Printing of homes requiring just the operator to run the job at least initially then eventually just assign it to a robot. Much of this is in its infancy but it is growing better every day and while not mature it is no longer Sci-Fi.

I am still working in IT and am past normal retirement age but I like what I am doing. Microsoft is coming out with new tools where I can use common language to tell it what I want to do and it will write the code for me instead of me writing the code. It is starting with simple task you can program but it will get more and more sophisticated. For the first time ever using Lasers scientists were able to do a Fusion experiment where they created more energy then what they used. No place near enough to be a continuous reaction but if they can do that then cheap clean almost unlimited energy which would be needed in the new world. 

Robotics and AI in and of themselves are not bad things but both can have unintended consequences. Used properly it could lead to utopia used improperly we could see similar outcomes to what we currently see in some of our Sci-Fi movies.

This could change the whole way we view government. 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by AuburnNTexas

[icanthearyou 4,463]

1 hour ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Some truth to what you say. The more vibrant the middle class the better for everybody. My fear is with changes in technology AI, Robotics, etc. we will have a hard time even keeping middle class employed even in area like IT, Medicine, Food Industry, Construction, etc. If we can't keep middle class employed how can we help the poor move up into the middle class. I see even in fields like medicine by using AI to do analyses the need for Doctors becomes less and less and might even improve diagnosis of diseases then you basically just need technicians to take samples and then run tests. Factories are becoming more and more automated. It is just a matter of time before fast food restaurants will need less and less people because of automation. 3d Printing of homes requiring just the operator to run the job at least initially then eventually just assign it to a robot. Much of this is in its infancy but it is growing better every day and while not mature it is no longer Sci-Fi.

I am still working in IT and am past normal retirement age but I like what I am doing. Microsoft is coming out with new tools where I can use common language to tell it what I want to do and it will write the code for me instead of me writing the code. It is starting with simple task you can program but it will get more and more sophisticated. For the first time ever using Lasers scientists were able to do a Fusion experiment where they created more energy then what they used. No place near enough to be a continuous reaction but if they can do that then cheap clean almost unlimited energy which would be needed in the new world. 

Robotics and AI in and of themselves are not bad things but both can have unintended consequences. Used properly it could lead to utopia used improperly we could see similar outcomes to what we currently see in some of our Sci-Fi movies.

This could change the whole way we view government. 

 

Indeed. AI, nanotechnology will devalue human labor and creativity. 

It will change government and economics.  The real question is,,, with how much turbulence?  How long will traditional power structures remain rigid?

Big changes for the younger generations.  Moreover, those changes will be in completely uncharted territory.

[GoAU 1,600]

On 4/13/2023 at 5:31 PM, icanthearyou said:

We give too much assistance to those at the very top and,,, not enough opportunity to those at the bottom.  There is a reason for our obscene, and growing, inequality.

Relative equality is essential for any system to be productive, peaceful, prosperous.  And, if we could achieve greater income equality, the wealthy would actually become more wealthy.  They would merely have less power.

Equality in opportunity or equity in outcome?

[AURex 2,027]

As one who studied (and received a degree from Auburn) in social and political philosophy, and who leaned into Libertarianism for years, my answer is unsurprising.

1. There is no actual "capitalist" country.
2. There are oligarchies and fascist states that pretend to be Capitalist but are more like #4.
3. There are Social Democracies of varying stripes that mix some Capitalistic economic policies with Social programs.
4. There are dictatorships/autocracies that are more heavily Socialistic with most economic policies state dictated.

The U.S. and most of the Western world are category 3, although the U.S. is moving quickly into the #2 category. The most successful Social Democracies (in no particular order)  are Sweden, Norway, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Japan, Belgium, UK, Ireland, Wales, and France. he U.S. is down the list, but still (marginally) in the 3 category.

 

 

[AUDynasty 585]

12 hours ago, GoAU said:

Equality in opportunity or equity in outcome?

My dream is that everyone has access to food, shelter, healthcare, money and resources. As long as their basic needs (not wants) are taken care of, then it's up to the individual to decide what outcome they'd like to achieve. We'll always have people who are driven to work professionally, we'll always have people who prefer to do things differently, and we'll always have people who share no interest in work. That's the way it is in any society all over the world. Everyone deserves an opportunity to make their own outcome when their needs are met. But when we take away critical components needed to build a successful life for an individual, we get what @icanthearyouis saying in how resources and wealth are hoarded for capitalistic monopoly. How can anyone live in that kind of society? That's where equity is financially and morally bankrupt.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

3 hours ago, AUDynasty said:

My dream is that everyone has access to food, shelter, healthcare, money and resources. As long as their basic needs (not wants) are taken care of, then it's up to the individual to decide what outcome they'd like to achieve. We'll always have people who are driven to work professionally, we'll always have people who prefer to do things differently, and we'll always have people who share no interest in work. That's the way it is in any society all over the world. Everyone deserves an opportunity to make their own outcome when their needs are met. But when we take away critical components needed to build a successful life for an individual, we get what @icanthearyouis saying in how resources and wealth are hoarded for capitalistic monopoly. How can anyone live in that kind of society? That's where equity is financially and morally bankrupt.

I would only add that,,, we subsidize the wealthy more than the poor.   Those "capitalists" pay the lowest tax rate.  Every state in this country has a regressive tax system.  The government owes money to the Social Security trust fund.

We are actively creating the concentration of wealth and power.  We are redistributing wealth in the wrong direction. 

We are the wealthiest country in the history of,,, history.  Our social safety net for corporate America, Wall St., is unparalleled.  Our social safety net for society is second world.

 

[TexasTiger 12,998]

On 4/13/2023 at 4:08 PM, AuburnNTexas said:

We need the right mixture of Capitalism and Socialism to address the issues if we go to far either way we can make matters worse. We have to find a way to help people in disadvantaged areas to help themselves.   

Denmark 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Which is more important?  Which would you die for?  Which would you kill for?

 

Capitalism or, democracy?  Humanity or, power?  Righteousness or, patriotism?

[autigeremt 6,661]

23 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Which is more important?  Which would you die for?  Which would you kill for?

 

Capitalism or, democracy?  Humanity or, power?  Righteousness or, patriotism?

A True Republic. Where productivity is rewarded and laziness isn’t. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

9 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

A True Republic. Where productivity is rewarded and laziness isn’t. 

The neo-liberal mantra.

Them poor peoples has done took all are money.

[autigeremt 6,661]

18 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The neo-liberal mantra.

Them poor peoples has done took all are money.

The ignorant-intellectual mantra. 
 

my answer was a preference not a realistic one 

[AU9377 5,023]

On 4/15/2023 at 2:31 PM, TexasTiger said:

Denmark 

True.  However, Denmark doesn't have the same challenges we have in numbers and diversity.  As much as I wish it didn't matter, it does.

[TexasTiger 12,998]

9 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

True.  However, Denmark doesn't have the same challenges we have in numbers and diversity.  As much as I wish it didn't matter, it does.

The Danes collectively bought into a collaborative system decades ago between capital & labor. Hard to replicate, but they do show how it can work. It’s a remarkable country.

[AU9377 5,023]

33 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

The Danes collectively bought into a collaborative system decades ago between capital & labor. Hard to replicate, but they do show how it can work. It’s a remarkable country.

I totally agree.  Unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to get people to agree that you shouldn't randomly shoot people pulling into your driveway, much less anything else.

Edited April 18, 2023 by AU9377

[TexasTiger 12,998]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

I totally agree.  Unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to get people to agree that you shouldn't randomly shoot people pulling into your driveway, much less anything else.

Yep, we’re kinda screwed, but we had a good run!

[autigeremt 6,661]

3 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I totally agree.  Unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to get people to agree that you shouldn't randomly shoot people pulling into your driveway, much less anything else.

Or at a 16th birthday party.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Our country has socialism for the ridiculously wealthy and capitalism for the masses.

Wall St. needs trillions, no problem.  Multinational corporation wants a new government in another country,,, no problem.  Airlines need a bailout, no problem. 

Community struggling with healthcare, food, shelter, childcare,,, those people need to try harder.

We have been trained from birth to believe in the sanctity of capitalism.  We have been trained to never, ever question.  We have been trained by the very enemy of capitalism,,, the capitalists themselves.

The real enemy of what America is suppose to stand for isn't a philosophy, an ideology, an economic system.  The enemy is power, concentrated power, power that seeks to undermine, limit, and then destroy democracy.