Ukraine

[LPTiger 5,159]

When the war first broke, I suspect we were all in favor of sending $$$ to Ukraine.  A year later, how do we feel.   The amount of $$$ we have sent far outpaces everyone else and far outpaces everyone in the region.   I believe we have given more than all the European nations combined.   China and Russia have become closer.   European nations have imposed sanctions, but they still trade with Russia.   The Middle East countries have become closer with Russia.   The counter-offensive has ground to a halt.   Ukraine cannot "defeat" Russia.   So what do we do?   IMO, we need to broker a deal and end the senseless of killings of Ukraine citizens and the destruction of a country.  

[TexasTiger 12,865]

5 hours ago, LPTiger said:

When the war first broke, I suspect we were all in favor of sending $$$ to Ukraine.  A year later, how do we feel.   The amount of $$$ we have sent far outpaces everyone else and far outpaces everyone in the region.   I believe we have given more than all the European nations combined.   China and Russia have become closer.   European nations have imposed sanctions, but they still trade with Russia.   The Middle East countries have become closer with Russia.   The counter-offensive has ground to a halt.   Ukraine cannot "defeat" Russia.   So what do we do?   IMO, we need to broker a deal and end the senseless of killings of Ukraine citizens and the destruction of a country.  

Proportionally, I think you’ll find many former Soviet satellites have contributed more and certainly taken in more refugees. But I agree that the citizenry of many countries, including our own, lack the patience to continue indefinitely without something looking like a resolution, although I doubt it will be much more than a Korea-like armistice.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I think the cost of allowing Russia to just take Ukraine is untenable, which is why the Western powers have been so willing to keep funding their resistance.  

[LPTiger 5,159]

Determining whether a war is "worth it" is sometimes easy and sometimes hard.  Here, there has been so much destruction.   Entire cities have been reduced to rubble.  More than 100,000 lives lost.  Many, many more permanently injured whether it be physical or mental.  Millions of people have had to flee the country and/or had their homes and EVERYTHING they owned destroyed.  It boggles the mind to even try to imagine the cost to "rebuild."

[Mikey 16,600]

Military types comment that the problem is that Biden has dribbled out our assistance instead of giving what was needed from the start and finishing the thing quickly. But that's another angle.

Looking at the amounts given I don't think Europe had paid a fair share. The US has paid more than all others combined and this mess is in Germany, France and England's back yard. These other nations need to step up.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Putin is an existential threat to Europe and the world we haven't seen possibly since Hitler and certainly since the fall of the Soviet Union.  If we pull our support and leave Ukraine to fend for itself, we will see rape and mass murder on a scale we haven't seen for decades.  Russia will establish a major foothold jutting into the heart of NATO and will be emboldened to maybe take a country like Moldova next.  

And how does allowing Russia to take Ukraine, or most of Ukraine embolden China as it pertains to Taiwan or various sea territory in that region?  Do you really think the takeaway in Beijing to seeing Putin expand the Russian empire in Europe is to just let Taiwan be?  To not try and declare more seaways and shipping routes in Southeast Asia to be under Chinese control?  Of course not.  Taiwan's independence becomes a ticking time bomb.  It becomes not a matter of if, but when China will invade.

So while I get the concern over the ticket price for backing Ukraine, the alternative is just unthinkable at this stage.  I think the goal (at least from the NATO end) is to allow Ukraine to force a stalemate where Russia retreats and is perhaps given a few small parcels of Ukrainian territory to save face.  And within a decade, Ukraine joins NATO to prevent Russia from getting any wise ideas in the future.  And the signal sent to China then is - don't press your luck.

[AU9377 4,930]

I think everyone believed Russia's military was much more capable than it has proven itself over the past year.  Most believed that Russia would control Ukraine within a short time frame once they began rolling troops and artillery into the country.  Russian's struggles may make it an even more dangerous and unpredictable adversary, given their vast supply of nuclear weapons. 

The only thing keeping Putin from using that arsenal is knowing that he would forever be an outcast and war criminal from that point forward.  Europe would then be united in bringing an end to his time as Russia's leader, regardless of the cost.  It seems that most of the world is crossing their fingers hoping that internal disagreements in Russia will bring his time to an end without the need for further action. 

[homersapien 11,373]

On 8/16/2023 at 11:37 AM, TitanTiger said:

Putin is an existential threat to Europe and the world we haven't seen possibly since Hitler and certainly since the fall of the Soviet Union.  If we pull our support and leave Ukraine to fend for itself, we will see rape and mass murder on a scale we haven't seen for decades.  Russia will establish a major foothold jutting into the heart of NATO and will be emboldened to maybe take a country like Moldova next.  

And how does allowing Russia to take Ukraine, or most of Ukraine embolden China as it pertains to Taiwan or various sea territory in that region?  Do you really think the takeaway in Beijing to seeing Putin expand the Russian empire in Europe is to just let Taiwan be?  To not try and declare more seaways and shipping routes in Southeast Asia to be under Chinese control?  Of course not.  Taiwan's independence becomes a ticking time bomb.  It becomes not a matter of if, but when China will invade.

So while I get the concern over the ticket price for backing Ukraine, the alternative is just unthinkable at this stage.  I think the goal (at least from the NATO end) is to allow Ukraine to force a stalemate where Russia retreats and is perhaps given a few small parcels of Ukrainian territory to save face.  And within a decade, Ukraine joins NATO to prevent Russia from getting any wise ideas in the future.  And the signal sent to China then is - don't press your luck.

"History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme" - Mark Twain

We've seen this before, in the 1930's.