Hamas vs Palestinians

[AU9377 5,043]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:09 AM, AURex said:

With all of the wingbut rhetoric (from both Democrats and Republicans) a lot of the actual reality gets buried inpolitics.

The trope narrative of "outsiders" is one of those blasts that every wingnut wants to broadcast -- without any actual proof. And even if there are some outsiders who come in, they are just minorities.

Most of the protesters on every campus (and there are many) nationally, ar students enrolled at the university. There are not BUSES  bringing in hundreds of activists. (If you can prove it, then do it, but legit news not wingnut propaganda).

DID YOU KNOW --

At Yale and Columbia and other universities, the Jewish students do not feel unsafe?

Did you know that, at Yale, there is a Jewish group "Jews for Ceasefire" that are protesting along with those who are protesting for Palestinian victims?

Did you know that the editor of the student paper at Columbia is Jewish and he has said he and other Jews on campus feel no threat from the protesters, meet with and talk to the protesters, etc?

Bringing in militarized forces to arrest peaceful protesters is unconstitutional abridgement of freedom of speech. Americans have the right to peacefully protests. The protesters on university campuses have not been involved in any violent acts.

This is just more wingnut response to peaceful speech they do not agree with. Despicable, disgusting. Even faculty at these universities have condemned administrators calling in police on peaceful demonstrators.

We condemn other countries (dictatorships) for criminalizing peaceful protests. Yet here we are, supposedly a free country with Constitutional protections for freedom of speech, doing exactly the same thing.

How sad for our country.

 

You have the right to protest, but not anywhere you want and for as long as you want.  There is no right to protest on private property.  While some protesters are peaceful, they are not all peaceful.  The ignorant Antisemitic Attacks, including signs calling Jews murderers and much worse looks more like a KKK rally than a real protest.  Schools will not stand by and passively endorse that on campus.  In addition to that,  the totally unrealistic demands of divestment make real debate and conversation useless. 

 

[autigeremt 6,717]

[auburnatl1 5,064]

On 4/28/2024 at 10:43 PM, E'Town4Bama said:

The middle east problems goes back to two people. Isaac and Ishmael............

Iran is Persian, not Arab. And Persians have.a completely different history (ie they debate whether they are of Isaac, Ishmael, or neither). Then throw in the Turks, Kurds, ect.   Like all things Middle East, it’s a big grey fractional mess. Thank goodness the college students have got a solution finally figured out…

Edited April 30 by auburnatl1

[E'Town4Bama 111]

3 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Iran is Persian, not Arab. And Persians have.a completely different history (ie they debate whether they are of Isaac, Ishmael, or neither). Then throw in the Turks, Kurds, ect.   Like all things Middle East, it’s a big grey fractional mess. Thank goodness the college students have got a solution finally figured out…

What is the solution?

[auburnatl1 5,064]

29 minutes ago, E'Town4Bama said:

What is the solution?

3 generations have tried and what people struggle with is there isnt a good one. Only the least crappy/deadly one.  I just think people need to be careful right now. It’s a fragile powder keg.

Edited May 1 by auburnatl1

[AURex 2,033]

As per my original post, I support peaceful protests. I was opposed to bringing in militarized crusaders in response to peaceful protests. Now, protests and anti-protests have become more violent and unfortunately must be dealt with in a more forceful manner. So unfortunate.

My perspective is influenced by the fact that my wife was a student at Kent State when the guard decided to start shooting at peaceful protesters and killed a student. And of course my own experience demonstrating against the Vietnam war.

As long as the protests are peaceful (as they still are on most campuses) this is an issue of freedom of speech. If the protesters initiate violence, that's a different issue.

Personally, I do not care if outsiders join a student protest. It is still freedom of speech. It is only when protesters initiate violence that the issue becomes more complicated.

If students have a sit-in in a building, that is not violent. If they are breaking windows, destroying stuff, that is violence.

Of course, as we see, crazoid wingnut government officials (on both sides of the aisle) tend to get their panties in a wad and call in the swat teams and militarized units just to demonstrate how tough they are.

 

[AUwent 3,776]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:09 AM, AURex said:

With all of the wingbut rhetoric (from both Democrats and Republicans) a lot of the actual reality gets buried inpolitics.

The trope narrative of "outsiders" is one of those blasts that every wingnut wants to broadcast -- without any actual proof. And even if there are some outsiders who come in, they are just minorities.

Most of the protesters on every campus (and there are many) nationally, ar students enrolled at the university. There are not BUSES  bringing in hundreds of activists. (If you can prove it, then do it, but legit news not wingnut propaganda).

DID YOU KNOW --

At Yale and Columbia and other universities, the Jewish students do not feel unsafe?

Did you know that, at Yale, there is a Jewish group "Jews for Ceasefire" that are protesting along with those who are protesting for Palestinian victims?

Did you know that the editor of the student paper at Columbia is Jewish and he has said he and other Jews on campus feel no threat from the protesters, meet with and talk to the protesters, etc?

Bringing in militarized forces to arrest peaceful protesters is unconstitutional abridgement of freedom of speech. Americans have the right to peacefully protests. The protesters on university campuses have not been involved in any violent acts.

This is just more wingnut response to peaceful speech they do not agree with. Despicable, disgusting. Even faculty at these universities have condemned administrators calling in police on peaceful demonstrators.

We condemn other countries (dictatorships) for criminalizing peaceful protests. Yet here we are, supposedly a free country with Constitutional protections for freedom of speech, doing exactly the same thing.

How sad for our country.

 

I’ll just leave this here. For the record I have been strongly against protestors trying to silence conservative speakers on campus (such as that event with Milo that went super viral).

 

Edited May 2 by AUwent

[AU9377 5,043]

On 4/30/2024 at 2:17 PM, autigeremt said:

How do almost all of them have the same tent?

[AURex 2,033]

I am sad to see the demonstrations becoming more extreme and violent on some campuses. I am not anti-semitic, but I do distinguish between Hamas terrorists and the Palestinian populace, and I am so upset by the IDF slaughter of innocent Palestinians.

But violent protests are not acceptable on our university campuses. It is an ugly look to send in police in riot gear, swat teams, militarized units. It is an unfortunate decision by universities to expel students.

But however much I support the Constitutional right to peaceful protest, this is not what we are seeing on some campuses, and it must be addressed.

I have a post-graduate degree from Columbia. I am so distressed that the university has landed in this position. I wish there was a better alternative for dealing with these violent protesters, because I am certain that most protesters are not supportive of their aggressive actions.

 

[DKW 86 7,445]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:12 PM, homersapien said:

I don't remember seeing any news footage of that, much less several days worth.  Maybe that's why it's "funny".

There is this thing called google, old man.

Please note the sourcing of the article. ALJAZEERA, not some western news media outlet doing a driveby analysis.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/15/syria-ten-years-of-war

It has been 10 years since the start of the Syrian uprisings and the country is still mired in a war that has displaced millions and killed hundreds of thousands.

Syria’s economy has deteriorated, pushing almost 80 percent of the country below the poverty line, according to the Red Cross.

The last death toll estimate by the UN in 2016 was more than 400,000 people. The Syrian Observatory of Human Rights, a Britain-based war monitor, placed the toll over 593,000 as of December 2020.

[DKW 86 7,445]

9 hours ago, AUwent said:

I’ll just leave this here. For the record I have been strongly against protestors trying to silence conservative speakers on campus (such as that event with Milo that went super viral).

 

Didnt make it more than 90 seconds into that waste of time and brain cells. No one anywhere has tried to stop anyone from protesting. That is just simply not true. Why would they? Watching fools spout off on crazy ideas that point out their own silliness is always a good thing. Protesters who cannot name what river or what sea, like 90+% of those on college campuses in the US, just prove the point that these people are TRULY stupid. When they say that Israel is "colonizers and invaders" of the Land of...Israel, they again make the point that they don't have a f'in clue what they are talking about. When the protesters claim that there was no Israel before 1948, that Jesus was "born a poor Palestinian boy," and that 3,200 years of archaeological history prove that Israelis have been on the land continuously...FOR 3,200 YEARS, it just proves that they are truly delulu. So PLEASE, don't shut them up. The rest of the thinking world is having too much fun mocking them...

 

[DKW 86 7,445]

Riddle me this Batman: How do "protesters on three campuses, in three different cities, in three different states, all have the exact same tents.

Maddow explains astroturf...or faked, paid for, protest outrage...

 

[homersapien 11,453]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:37 AM, auburnatl1 said:

People seem to struggle on WHY the Middle East is a trainwreck  (besides radical Islam). We screwed it up. The West picked political favorites, curved it up, and literally took away countries from people (how do you think maga personalities would react to that?). Especially the Palestinians. 2 peoples - one homeland, no one wants to share. Theres plenty of bad guys to go around on this one.

Yes, we (largely Britain) screwed it up, but it wasn't from incompetence, it was deliberate. 

That was the easiest way to keep the relative political power of any given, (oil rich) "country" from accumulating a critical mass of power. In the case of Iran, we even deposed a democratically elected leader with "our" authoritarian.

And I like your last sentence.

[homersapien 11,453]

7 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

There is this thing called google, old man.

Please note the sourcing of the article. ALJAZEERA, not some western news media outlet doing a driveby analysis.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/15/syria-ten-years-of-war

It has been 10 years since the start of the Syrian uprisings and the country is still mired in a war that has displaced millions and killed hundreds of thousands.

Syria’s economy has deteriorated, pushing almost 80 percent of the country below the poverty line, according to the Red Cross.

The last death toll estimate by the UN in 2016 was more than 400,000 people. The Syrian Observatory of Human Rights, a Britain-based war monitor, placed the toll over 593,000 as of December 2020.

In response to your post (my first mistake), I was proposing a possible reason it didn't spark widespread student protests in this country (to which you gave a "thumbs up").

Other than that, I have no f****** idea what your point is, nor do I care, "old man".

Edited May 2 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,453]

On 4/30/2024 at 11:19 PM, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

The media is falling for the fact that Hamas deliberately uses their own citizens as human shields and actually places them in harm's way.  Why?  Because people like you in the West fall for it.  If it didn't work, they would stop doing it.  By falling for it, you're encouraging them to keep doing it.  Just like people who talk to telemarketers.

 

What does this mean - "falling for it"?

I watch mainly PBS News Hour and they are not "falling for it".  From their reporting, It's quite apparent what Hamas's strategy is. It's as old as guerrilla war. (Look up Mao's "fish quote".)

I don't get your point.

 

 

[TAYLORKEETON 807]

I loved seeing 2 sides protesting on UA's campus, both sides united and started to chant F biden 🤣 it was comical

[homersapien 11,453]

7 hours ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

So conservative speakers who are paid and brought to campus by student organizations who have made all the necessary arrangements, petitioned for and received all the necessary permissions, reserved a space designated by the university, and is acting within all the rules of the university governing such events is equivalent to students breaking into buildings causing property damage and vandalism, preventing other students from attending class, occupying spaces they have no permission to be in, and creating a volatile, harassing, disruptive, and sometimes physically dangerous environment for Jewish students?

I certainly hope that's the stupidest thing I read all week.  

Did you bother to read what he posted?

"I’ll just leave this here. For the record I have been strongly against protestors trying to silence conservative speakers on campus (such as that event with Milo that went super viral)."

Edited May 2 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,445]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

In response to your post (my first mistake), I was proposing a possible reason it didn't spark widespread student protests in this country (to which you gave a "thumbs up").

Other than that, I have no f****** idea what your point is, nor do I care, "old man".

You challenged the idea that there were 400K-almost 600K killed by Assad. I gave you facts. And that this new fangled thing called google would have allowed to see multiple sources of fact for that.

Edited May 2 by DKW 86

[homersapien 11,453]

4 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

You challenged the idea that there were 400K-almost 600K killed by Assad. I gave you facts. And that this new fangled thing called google would have allowed to see multiple sources of fact for that.

Back to lying I see.  

Don't suppose you are any more inclined to specifically quote that "lie", are you? 

[homersapien 11,453]

6 hours ago, TAYLORKEETON said:

I loved seeing 2 sides protesting on UA's campus, both sides united and started to chant F biden 🤣 it was comical

Perhaps that indicates Biden is steering the only path that's reasonable given the circumstances.

[AuburnNTexas 7,174]

Everybody is trying to simplify a very comlicated narrative. Many people forget the Jews and Palistinians have lived there for thousands of years.  The Palestinians and Arabs both sided with Nazis in trying to eliminate the Jews.  https://jcpa.org/investigating-role-palestinians-arabs-holocaust/ .

This is the background of the multiple wars the Jews in Israel have fought.  Now the Jews in Israel are not without blame, they have taken land and water rights from Arabs in Israel who were not part of Hamas, prior to the Hamas attack that was against women and children not Military infrastructure they have isolated Gaza and made it difficult for the people to live there. Partly because Gaza has been ruled by Hamas who have stated that they want to wipe Israel off the map. 

Yes the IDF have bombed hospitals and killed innocent people.  The Israelis have also shown that Hamas has embeded soldiers in hospitals, schools and other public areas where they have also stored arms, missles and at times fired those missles from these public areas. 

If the Israelis were really trying to wipe the Palistinians out, why would they announce in advance where they were going to be bombing. If they had not done that there would have been a lot more that 35,000 dead people per Hamases count as they supply the numbers of killed.  

I do blame the Israelis for being much to slow in allowing aid like food, water, medicine, etc into Gaza especially the North where they decimated it early on. Sadly there are no winners just losers.  The Israelis state can't afford to lose because if they do they will be wiped out and after the holocoust the Jews don't believe anybody would come to their aid.  The Palestinians in Gaza and to an extent in the West Bank have sided with Hamas and or the PLO. Both Hamas and the PLO have taken in billions of dollars from the UN that was suppossed to improve conditions in Gaza and the West Bank but especially in Gaza and have used the money and resources to creat an extensive tunnel network, created, bought or were given weapons and missles instead of using the money to help their own people.

I also won't deny that there have been times in Gaza where some IDF units have gone to far either by mistake or sadly a few times on purpose. Sadly that happens in every war. Jewish settlers have done attrocious things in some Arab towns and the Israeli government has not protected those towns or prosecuted the offending settlers.

There are Jews in Israel who openly and publically condemn their Government over the attrocities and nothing happens to them  In Gaza if you speak out against Hamas you dissapear. The Palestinians in Gaza are oppressed by Israelis and by their own leaders.  Any poll taken in Gaza has to be taken with a grain of salt if you think anybody would openly say anything against Hamas. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,174]

17 minutes ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

Arabs ARE "Palestinians."  Or rather, there is no such things as "Palestinians."

Don't believe me, believe this guy, who slipped up and said the quiet part out loud to a Dutch journalist back in 1977 (emphasis mine):  "The Palestinian people do not exist. There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are part of one people, the Arab nation. Lo and behold, I have relatives with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are one people. It is only for political reasons that we carefully endorse our Palestinian identity. Indeed, it is of national interest for the Arabs to encourage the existence of the Palestinians in the face of Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is only for tactical reasons." —Zuheir Mohsen, PLO leader from 1971-1979.

You are correct.  Despite this fact that they are all Arabs, The Arabs who were from the area that is referred to as Palestine after multiple wars many left the area and went to places like Syria, Jordon, etc and most were put into camps.  Many have lived in these camps for many years and multiple generations and yet are not allowed to become citizens of those countries even if second and third generation living in those countries. Basically their own people treat them as badly as the Israelis.  That is one of the reasons I said it is a very complicated situation.   

[DKW 86 7,445]

16 hours ago, homersapien said:

Yes, we (largely Britain) screwed it up, but it wasn't from incompetence, it was deliberate. 

That was the easiest way to keep the relative political power of any given, (oil rich) "country" from accumulating a critical mass of power. In the case of Iran, we even deposed a democratically elected leader with "our" authoritarian.

And I like your last sentence.

It was in fact the UN that screwed all this up.

[DKW 86 7,445]

9 hours ago, homersapien said:

Perhaps that indicates Biden is steering the only path that's reasonable given the circumstances.

Or that Biden is just that unpopular with both sides, you know, like poll after poll has been saying for months now.

 

[DKW 86 7,445]

7 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

You are correct.  Despite this fact that they are all Arabs, The Arabs who were from the area that is referred to as Palestine after multiple wars many left the area and went to places like Syria, Jordon, etc and most were put into camps.  Many have lived in these camps for many years and multiple generations and yet are not allowed to become citizens of those countries even if second and third generation living in those countries. Basically their own people treat them as badly as the Israelis.  That is one of the reasons I said it is a very complicated situation.   

Unlike most on this often silly forum, you at least pay attention to the details. They have no rights and will never have rights as to jobs, home ownership, or citizenship. No one cares about these so-called Palestinians unless there is a Jew to Blame. No one cares.