Actual NYT article

[Tiger Kent 29]

I think that the point of the article is that there are academic misdoings at Auburn University.  These misdoings have involved - in some cases - scholarship athletes.  Thus, it calls NCAA regulations into play and suggests that there MIGHT be cause for an investigation or maybe more.  From that, they talk about Auburn's previous troubles with NCAA regulations.

I don't think it's that hard to follow.

247612[/snapback]

It is very easy to follow and I undertsand your point, but still some of it seemed uneccessary. Why did he mention "Petrino-Gate"? What validity does Petrino-Gate add to the story? It had nothing to do with breaking NCAA rules. It was a very embarassing moment for the Auburn Family, but mentioning it in this article is beyond reason... unless he is trying to drag Auburn's name through the mud.

[swensks 0]

It is very easy to follow and I undertsand your point,  but still some of it seemed uneccessary. Why did he mention "Petrino-Gate"? What validity does Petrino-Gate add to the story?  It had nothing to do with breaking NCAA rules.  It was a very embarassing moment for the Auburn Family,  but mentioning it in this article is beyond reason...  unless he is trying to drag Auburn's name through the mud.

247617[/snapback]

I agree with you there. Now that you mention it, that one was unnecessary. The rest I think were OK to mention though.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Can we puuuuhhhhhllllease figure out how to work the quote feature...even a sociology major should be able to figure it out

[swensks 0]

Can we puuuuhhhhhllllease figure out how to work the quote feature...even a sociology major should be able to figure it out

247623[/snapback]

Sorry man...I thought it would correct itself when I posted...I'll fix it.

And please don't even make it sound like I have a "degree" in sociology...woof.

[Tiger Kent 29]

Can we puuuuhhhhhllllease figure out how to work the quote feature...even a sociology major should be able to figure it out

247623[/snapback]

I am a newbie... still learning. Let's see if this works....

[tigernt'town 4]

sociology, i have a degree in that from another in-state institution, it is not exactly rocket science. i wrote a term paper, bombed out of my mind, for social institutions, and actually got a big fat A. demography was the only real difficult class in the curriculum. if you could not follow the math, you could not even pass the test with the book and your notes in front of you for the test. i saw more than a few sorority girls and athletes fight back tears on exam days, but hey that was 15 years ago.

oh who give a rats' a** what paul finebum and his IDIOT sidekick have to say, they are morons, if they both burst into flames i would not p*ss on either one to put them out. rush limbaugh has been telling us for years not to put a lot of stock in ANYTHING the new york times has to say. they give all journalists a bad name.

[tigernt'town 4]

whoops! forgot to mention i also have a degree in economics to go with sociology.

[DKW 86 7,424]

If you can answer this question, I'll stand down and admit to being 100% wrong. If there was no agenda whatsoever, why did the NYTimes not follow the basic tenets of journalistic integrity and ask other schools of comparable size about similar academic practices?

Because in this situation they had a story from an actual AU professor who is pretty darn high up. They cant go door to door at other universities begging them to find a prof willing to dish dirt on his employer.

Which brings me to the other point...even IF there is a UA influence on getting the story written...its ONLY newsworthy because the whistleblowing came from an AU prof, not Alabama. So if there's a problem here...blame it on the AU prof...not some 3 of 4th degree of seperation who may have attended a football game at Bama.

247567[/snapback]

Just like Eric Ramsey BG? You dont by this crap anymore than I do.

[UA-CT 1]

First of all, if the story is accurate and if there is truly nothing wrong with the practice, why should we care in the NYT or anyone else prints it?  Why should you wish to fire someone who brings to the attention of the press a practice that you believe is defensible and appropriate?  Do you care if what you do is printed in the NYT?  If you do, is that you fault or their's?

Auburn should be able to withstand such scrutiny.  It should strive to have its academic practices so above board that no journalist would find anything remotely sensational about printing it.  The article could have easily at least mentioned a few other schools practices that are less than impressive, but if the story is true, why all the bitchin' about the Times?  If the practice is not a problem, then why is it such a breach of protocol to mention it to the press?

I would love Auburn if we never won another game.  I would love Auburn football if we decided to be Division III and not give scholarships and only fielded a team that met the same admissions criteria as any other student.   I might even prefer that to the direction things are quickly going.  I could more easily afford to take my kids to the games, get good seats, and rest assured that the student-athletes they were watching and cheering on were first and foremost students.  We could have minor leagues to prepare folks for the NFL since that was never the original intention of Cliff Hare when he fielded the first team in 1892.   It is very unfortunate the college sports has become increasingly compromised, that money has become paramount and standards have sunk so low. 

Frankly, the fact that a young man can walk across campus and see a hundred people wearing his number is probably a pretty sad statement about what our values have become and how much we look to others to entertain us and give us some sense of identity-- even if it isn't ours.  And, yes, I know mine is a minority view on this forum.

247602[/snapback]

Maybe a minority view, but a good one.

If he wants to act like a 2 year old then he should expect some kind of retribution from the Auburn Family.  I had no problem with him confronting Professor Petee but it should have ended there.  He should not have gone to the NY Times,  it should have never left the AU family.

247604[/snapback]

Again, I don't understand his motivation...If I were AU I would fire him the next day. If you have a problem with something or someone you should atleast be man enough to tell them first before making it public. Is he not a professional?

247606[/snapback]

If you immediately fire someone who you don't agree with, who is actually being the 2 year old? Wouldn't an Auburn man work out his differences instead of just dismissing the other guy? You, sir, have some thinking to do.

What he did was not right. He should not have dumped the info to the NYT. But the simple fact is that what he told the times seems to be true. That being said, we need to get over the fact that it was done and get to the meat of the problem - the fact that we have academic problems at Auburn.

247610[/snapback]

Swensks, you are indeed the voice of reason and as a rival fan I have alot of respect for you, BUT do you really think this guy will keep his job? If he isn't fired, I'd be willing to bet he will be forced out one way or another.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Just like Eric Ramsey BG? You dont by this crap anymore than I do. 

What I dont buy is that this is some huge Bama conspiracy to defame AU. You have to avoid a LOT of the obvious and jump to pretty large conclusions before Bama ever comes into play.

[DKW 86 7,424]

Just like Eric Ramsey BG? You dont by this crap anymore than I do. 

What I dont buy is that this is some huge Bama conspiracy to defame AU. You have to avoid a LOT of the obvious and jump to pretty large conclusions before Bama ever comes into play.

247643[/snapback]

BG, Eric Ramsey was setup from the start by Bama Folks. Donald Watkins and Richard Arrington had their fingers all over it. Hell Arrington bragged about getting back at Dye for moving the Iron Bowl.

The numerous Three Turds and a Tool comments are right online.

Read the end of the story, Why is talking about PetrinoGate? What does that have to do with Academics or even the NCAA? Nothing...THis was a cold blooded smear piece from day one. It was written to smear us and benefit our neigbrs across the state. The fact that WSJ, CH, and DW knew about this and promoted it on TI 3-4 weeks before it was written in total really tells it all.

[BamaGrad03 0]

This is so typical AU mentality that it makes me want to rip my TEETH out due to frustrations that you dont see it. YOUR professor took the story to the NYT. YOUR professor called another AU prof out months before he took his story to the NYT. YOUR professor was the one who had the questionable teaching practices...NOT BAMA. I dont care if Mike Freakin Shula wrote the article. It still took an AU prof calling you guys out for it to happen.

I swear EVERYTHING is our fault. When we get in trouble its our fault. When you get in trouble its our fault. Whether this is an actual violation or not...i sure wish you all would own up to it. The last 5 years all ive heard is that bama fans project like no other. Now you are doing the same.

Mom to young AU fan: "Who pooped in your diaper?"

AU fan: "Alabama pooped in my diaper"

Give it a rest and look as to WHY this prof had such sour grapes...not why someone wrote an article on it.

[Grider 1]

Swensks, you are indeed the voice of reason and as a rival fan I have alot of respect for you, BUT do you really think this guy will keep his job? If he isn't fired, I'd be willing to bet he will be forced out one way or another.

247642[/snapback]

He is already retiring in 2007; not much need to force him out. If they did, then he would sue and most likely win a wrongful termination suit, since it would be rather obvious that he was fired as payback.

[BamaGrad03 0]

FYI...OTHER cities where the NYT owns either a TV or Print media group:

Gainsville, FL

Hendersonville, NC

Houma, LA

Lakeland, FL

Florence, AL

Gadsden, AL

Lexington, NC

Ocala, FL

Petaluma, CA

Santa Rosa, CA

Sarasota, FL

Spartanburg, SC

Thibodaux, LA

Wilmington, NC

Oklahoma City, OK

Fort Smith, AR

Huntsville, AL

Des Moines, IA

Memphis, TN

Norfolk, VA

Moline, IL

Hmmmmmm....they cover a LOT of ground. They have a paper in Gainsville...so I guess they cant EVER EVER EVER write anything negative about FSU or its a conspiracy against the seminoles.

[Grider 1]

This is so typical AU mentality that it makes me want to rip my TEETH out due to frustrations that you dont see it. YOUR professor took the story to the NYT. YOUR professor called another AU prof out months before he took his story to the NYT. YOUR professor was the one who had the questionable teaching practices...NOT BAMA. I dont care if Mike Freakin Shula wrote the article. It still took an AU prof calling you guys out for it to happen.

I swear EVERYTHING is our fault. When we get in trouble its our fault. When you get in trouble its our fault. Whether this is an actual violation or not...i sure wish you all would own up to it. The last 5 years all ive heard is that bama fans project like no other. Now you are doing the same.

Mom to young AU fan: "Who pooped in your diaper?"

AU fan: "Alabama pooped in my diaper"

Give it a rest and look as to WHY this prof had such sour grapes...not why someone wrote an article on it.

247648[/snapback]

I agree about some AU people blaming Bama for every little piece of negative press, but that too is a two way street direct to and from the capstone.

If the rolls were reversed and a UAT prof went to the a sports writer at the NYT with the same thin story, you would not see this in the NYT. WSJ did print it because he wanted to make Auburn look bad as possible. That is not some Alabama conspiracy, it is WSJ's lack of journalistic integrity and ethics.

Make no bones about it, this is Auburn's fault/problem and Auburn's fault/problem alone. But it is not worthy of being printed in one of the premier newspapers in the nation in its current form. The reason it was printed is because an editor has a preexisting boner for Bama and against Auburn.

[DKW 86 7,424]

This is so typical AU mentality that it makes me want to rip my TEETH out due to frustrations that you dont see it. YOUR professor took the story to the NYT. YOUR professor called another AU prof out months before he took his story to the NYT. YOUR professor was the one who had the questionable teaching practices...NOT BAMA. I dont care if Mike Freakin Shula wrote the article. It still took an AU prof calling you guys out for it to happen.

I swear EVERYTHING is our fault. When we get in trouble its our fault. When you get in trouble its our fault. Whether this is an actual violation or not...i sure wish you all would own up to it. The last 5 years all ive heard is that bama fans project like no other. Now you are doing the same.

Mom to young AU fan: "Who pooped in your diaper?"

AU fan: "Alabama pooped in my diaper"

Give it a rest and look as to WHY this prof had such sour grapes...not why someone wrote an article on it.

247648[/snapback]

I agree about some AU people blaming Bama for every little piece of negative press, but that too is a two way street direct to and from the capstone.

If the rolls were reversed and a UAT prof went to the a sports writer at the NYT with the same thin story, you would not see this in the NYT. WSJ did print it because he wanted to make Auburn look bad as possible. That is not some Alabama conspiracy, it is WSJ's lack of journalistic integrity and ethics.

Make no bones about it, this is Auburn's fault/problem and Auburn's fault/problem alone. But it is not worthy of being printed in one of the premier newspapers in the nation in its current form. The reason it was printed is because an editor has a preexisting boner for Bama and against Auburn.

247652[/snapback]

Thanks Grider that was far more sane than I was coming off. BG, It is not the story itself. It that we are talking about 18 footballers taking a whopping 97 hours, 5.4 per kid, over a two year period. The AU football team amounted to 3-6% of the kids taking these classes BG, 3-6% and it is in the premier paper in the country as a slam piece? Want to guess why?

[freebody 0]

Swensks, you are indeed the voice of reason and as a rival fan I have alot of respect for you, BUT do you really think this guy will keep his job? If he isn't fired, I'd be willing to bet he will be forced out one way or another.

247642[/snapback]

swensks - you are missing some very important points regarding code and chain of command. Forget what I said earlier this afternoon about it being OK for you to take off early tomorrow - I think you need to stay at the office until 5 and receive your code red.

Everybody else - I think the suspicion is not in the creation of the actual academic complaint, it is in the forum in which it is being published. Why was it sent to the NY Times, and not to the B'ham News or even directly to Finebaum (who could use some new material)? I think the suspicion is that if it were LSU or UGA, it would not have been turned into an apparent "smear" story. There are several quotes and "half-truths" in there that skew the story, to the point that the skew is obviously intentional. (Such as using the NCAA guy's quote that it "might" improve APR, when really it is a very limited amount of the total credits earned by the students on the football team - remember that it takes several A's to offset a low grade, so even if they got 2 A's this way, it would barely offset even one D elsewhere)

Do you not see that the problem is not a university-wide issue? Even Caddilac, with his evidently limited exposure to statistics, could see that this was not a representative sample. The other professors polled in the article regarding individual studies were not in the Sociology department, which also includes Criminal Justice or Criminology, and therefore do not provide an apples-to-apples comparison. (Like the biology professor - of course there would be little to no individual study there - "hey, go cut this frog up, and come back in twelve weeks and let me know how deep the green goes"). How many football players have their major within the Criminology department? Not just at Auburn, but other schools? That, and HHP/Exercise Science seem to be the predominant majors. Why is that? Maybe because these degrees do not require the same sort of time or aptitude demands as some of the other curriculae (such as engineering, in my highly biased view). Another reason academic advisors in athletics might encourage players to take a directed reading course? Because that is one less fixed-time class on their schedule, so they have more flexibility in doing their workouts/practices/film study/position meetings/tutoring sessions. I don't think that this is any real sort of scandal, any more than the fact that Auburn actually has a major that is so widely viewed as an easy way out, at any university.

Now, if I were a Sociology grad, I might be offended by any sort of "cheapening" of my degree. Of course, if I were a Socialogy grad, then I might very well have done the same thing myself, but I would likely be too busy asking my customers if they wanted fries with their value meal. (Oh boy, I'm going to get it for that one!)

[freebody 0]

This is so typical AU mentality that it makes me want to rip my TEETH out due to frustrations that you dont see it.

247648[/snapback]

OK, while we are making generalizations, do you really want to rip out BOTH of your teeth?

Mom to young AU fan: "Who pooped in your diaper?"

AU fan: "Alabama pooped in my diaper"

247648[/snapback]

Mom's response, "No, there is Alabama in your diaper, but who put it there?"

[Draven 0]

Wow I log out and make myself oblivious for a few hours and this is what I come back to, the place is going crazy with posting. First off let me say Thamel is a tool. This story wreaks of those unequivocally detestable idiots in west vance. However before BG and other bammar's get their collective panties in a bind for the 30,000 time today that UAT was mentioned in a negative light on an Auburn board and start whining again, let me say this story presents some disturbing news for the AU family (if the evidence turns out to be true).

Evidence that Thamel has a personal agenda can be found all over the article but let me highlight some.

He included paperwork showing that Professor Petee taught more than 250 students individually during the 2004-5 academic year. He also provided Mr. Heilman with examples of how prominent athletes had cut academic corners. The 18 football players received an average G.P.A. of 3.31 in the classes, according to statistics compiled by Professor Gundlach. Ok so out of the near 250 people who took this course 18 were football players. (sorry Stat) OK well 232 students(86.2%) who took this course were NON athletes. For those non math majors like me that leaves 13.8% (18 students) which were athletes.

In November 2003, the university president and the athletic director flew on the private plane of a booster and trustee, Bobby Lowder, to the outskirts of Louisville, Ky. They held an in-season, clandestine meeting with Bobby Petrino, the University of Louisville coach, to gauge his interest in replacing Tommy Tuberville as the head coach at Auburn. No permission was sought from Louisville, and both coaches were still under contract. Has absolutely nothing to do with this or academics for that matter.

Auburn admitted two football players in the fall of 2004, Lorenzo Ferguson and Ulysses Alexander, who attended University High School. That school, an investigation by The Times found, gave fast and easy grades to talented athletes. Ferguson said that during his senior year at University High his grade-point average went from to 2.6 from 2.0 in one month. Auburn defended their admission by saying that both players met N.C.A.A. standards. Key phrase met NCAA standards that means that AUBURN followed all channels they needed to in order to make sure these guys were ok with the NCAA to play. Again has nothing to do with this in anyway

Ok now I am not blaming anyone but like DKW and a few others have pointed out this is just way to well tied to TI and WJS CH and DW for them not to have their hands in it. Like I said at the top I am still not convinced that this is anything more than Professor Gundlach getting pissed off and since he is retiring in a few months wanting to get some kind of payback out of getting passed over for head of the sociology department position. Which is something that even the NYT quotes as leaving the department divided and was the crucial factor in Prof. Gindlach decision to retire. I graduated from Troy so I never met any of the people in question to speak on a character level about any of them.

Going by this I need to go back and take 2 courses b/c my professor was located in Ft. Rucker and the class corresponded by email alone never once met face to face. Sorry if I just reiterated what people have been saying read the article then glanced at a few post and threw in my $.02. If this does turn out to be true then yes we as the Auburn family need to fix it in a hastened fashion. This is no way for the finest institution in the world to handle academics.

[UA-CT 1]

This is so typical AU mentality that it makes me want to rip my TEETH out due to frustrations that you dont see it.

247648[/snapback]

OK, while we are making generalizations, do you really want to rip out BOTH of your teeth?

Mom to young AU fan: "Who pooped in your diaper?"

AU fan: "Alabama pooped in my diaper"

247648[/snapback]

Mom's response, "No, there is Alabama in your diaper, but who put it there?"

247657[/snapback]

Auburn Respose: The Media

[UA-CT 1]

Story also makes the USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/foo...htm?POE=SPOISVA

and fox

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/5783844

and cbs

http://sportsline.com/collegefootball/story/9553113

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

That, and HHP/Exercise Science seem to be the predominant majors.  Why is that?  Maybe because these degrees do not require the same sort of time or aptitude demands as some of the other curriculae (such as engineering, in my highly biased view).

After going through athletes and listings of majors you would need to change that to the school of business actually.

While I know its no engineering, which few majors are to be honest, I have never seen exercise science put in the category of crip major. Cause it does include chem, physics, calculus, anatomies and is designed for students looking to grad school or professional schools (physical therapy for example). Its not the hardest but hardly a crip major.

To be honest, most of the athletes I have had class with in exercise science or health promotion majors are not dumb jocks looking for the easy way out. Though should it really be suprising that athletes would be interested in a major that can lead to athletic jobs or health based jobs, just like computer people are going to want to do computer based majors. Look at the equestrian team, most of them are prevet, or animal science, or related.

Now the physical education major, I would agree with you. Neighbor was a PE major, cause he wants to coach baseball and he never had to do any work and quite a few of his classes were games. But rather than build a bridge or something, he wanted to coach... more power to him.

The idea of labeling a major as easy only because athletes are in it is unfair. Especially in cases where its directly related to their interests, athletes and health, equestrians and animals, etc.

Some majors just are easier than others. Psychology was easier than Exercise Science. You can even break the HLHP down into difficulties, exercise science then health promotion, and then physical education.

Shouldn't be suprising that sociology is the major hit here, its the most popular major across the US with student athletes. This story is almost the exact same as what Duke and its basketball team got hit with on outside the lines on ESPN, the major is to easy and the independent study is to easy and not credible. I'd bet at 90% of schools sociology will be one of the easiest majors, because its the nature of it.

[WaDE'05 8]

“Speaking relative to my own department standards, there would be no way,” Mr. Jolley said. “It couldn’t be done. I don’t know anyone here, given their regular teaching load, who could hope to do so.”

I am a philosophy major. Philosophy in my opinion is one of the top ten hardest majors at Auburn, especially if you find yourself in a lot of Dr. Jolley and Dr. Long's classes. The typical requirements for a directed study in Philosophy are pretty close to the requirements given in some majors for an undergrad thesis. They usually involve readings of 5-7 primary sources and a 40 page paper defending a position. I have done three, and I have always thought that they should be weighted a little more than just 3 credit hours. I also believe that Dr. Jolley is 100% correct in what he is saying. He's probably one of the smartest guys I've ever met so I can't really disagree with him anyway, but notice how he starts out his statement "relative to my own department". He says this because if this were done in his department it would mean that one professor would be reading and hand grading 4,000 pages of text at the end of the semseter. The Philosophy Dept. at Auburn wouldn't know what WebCT was if it fell through the roof of the Haley Center right into their office, and rightly so, Philosophy can't be studied that way. However, I am sure that with Dr. Petee's courses some kind of web platform was involved and probably a GTA grader as well. If that is the case, 100 students isn't much of a load at all. However, if Dr. Petee was teaching these classes without any help from a GTA or WebCT, then he is either Superman or something fishy was going on.

Regardless of all this, I FIND IT INCREDIBLY HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WORTHY OF NATIONAL NEWS COVERAGE. I mean what is the story "Some Majors Easier than Others, Sources Say", "Athlete Travels Around Nation, Makes Arrangements to Take Classes".....bfd....wtfc?

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Exactly Wade. The answer could be different if they went and asked someone the same question in the English department. I think you could safely say that at midterms and finals most of those instructors are grading 150 papers and 150 tests easily.

[JxnTider 0]

TM, or vatz, what are your takes on this? Please tell me the two of you, who i have often agreed with, don't make this out to be a Bama smear campaign...

In my opinion, AU has some serious problems, some academic, some athletic. I mean, y'all busted JPW over his DUI and CMS private handling of it. Yet, when the same thing happens to Sears, and now Pitts, nothing is said about it. Then this article comes out, and it's all BAMA's fault. I know the JPW and KS is an old and tired subject, just using it as an example. But the MP article, and now this, two days apart, makes you think doesn't it? Maybe y'all need to worry about AU's problems, and less about pawning them off as BAMA smear material.

JMO... which i'm sure means jack sh** around here...