Croyle: My IS Course Easier than Dancing...

[ROLL TIDE FOREVER AMEN 0]

Amen, here is the link for the 6 credit class we are talking about.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...er.2d1ca13.html

I understand what your saying, what does it matter what they take or how its structured because they already have done the work they need. But you can't just structure a special course for athletes that involve basically no work cause they have finished their degree.

That same course with the same workload has to be offered to regular students, if it isn't then its considered preferential treatment and a NCAA violation.

You also can't rule out that maybe somewhere they could decide to get a second degree, and its possible that IS course could be considered a core course for the second degree. So they just got a freebie 6 hours toward that second degree.

I think what Galen is getting at is that there is requirements credit and grade wise for the current semester of sports participation and that just because they have completed a degree doesn't mean they should get a freebie for that semester for elgibility. They should have to do work in a legit class like the athletes that have not yet finished a degree.

And yes, there are athletes that go to college with no intent of getting a degree, its the step that they have to take to go pro in football. Probably alot of them that woulnd't have set foot on a campus if they could go pro after high school.

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Well, there are a lot of what if's and its possible in all that. Slippery slope argument's are hard to quantify. Dont you agree? As far as you thinking its preferential treatment.. I think we agree that student athletes get that any way without the NCAA so much as looking up from their latest BCS models, you mentioned quite a few in your previous post.

I guess what im saying is the reason you " go to college" is to earn a degree. Thats the whole point... once its done its done. Its a great accomplishment, I respect anyone who has done it. I think its enough.. more than enough. And I think at least most athletes fully intend to get their degree from the start. Just that other... whatever ( correct word escapes me) gets in the way.

[GalensGhost 0]

Whether or not Doug had any intention of graduating makes no difference whatsoever.

So your saying there is the possibility that Doug went to Auburn University strictly to play football with no intention of ever recieving a degree. Thats a possibility?

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I'm saying it makes no difference what his intention was or wasn't. Both guys needed to take a class to remain eligible to play in the bowl game. It's not my place to decide what Doug wanted to do once his playing days were done. The education was there should he choose to avail himself of it. I would hope he wanted to or intended to get his degree, but the fact remains that both guys needed a class to remain eligible. The class selected by both Croyle and Doug was in a major and counted toward a diploma. Therefore, there is no difference.

Easy classes are easy classes. Bama guys shouldn't over graduation rates. Those are what they are.

[ROLL TIDE FOREVER AMEN 0]

Whether or not Doug had any intention of graduating makes no difference whatsoever.

So your saying there is the possibility that Doug went to Auburn University strictly to play football with no intention of ever recieving a degree. Thats a possibility?

249077[/snapback]

I'm saying it makes no difference what his intention was or wasn't. Both guys needed to take a class to remain eligible to play in the bowl game. It's not my place to decide what Doug wanted to do once his playing days were done. The education was there should he choose to avail himself of it. I would hope he wanted to or intended to get his degree, but the fact remains that both guys needed a class to remain eligible. The class selected by both Croyle and Doug was in a major and counted toward a diploma. Therefore, there is no difference.

Easy classes are easy classes. Bama guys shouldn't over graduation rates. Those are what they are.

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Well.. this has turned into a circle argument. The fact to me is Brodie already had his degree and Charlie had two. They didn't need the classes to graduate. The fact that it may have counted toward a diploma in basket weaving versus a diploma in sociology is a difference. You say its not.

Your saying maybe Doug didn't even intend to graduate.. maybe he didn't. I dont know. You say its the same... I say its not. We agree to disagree.

Dear God has the season started yet?!

[GalensGhost 0]

Whether or not Doug had any intention of graduating makes no difference whatsoever.

So your saying there is the possibility that Doug went to Auburn University strictly to play football with no intention of ever recieving a degree. Thats a possibility?

249077[/snapback]

I'm saying it makes no difference what his intention was or wasn't. Both guys needed to take a class to remain eligible to play in the bowl game. It's not my place to decide what Doug wanted to do once his playing days were done. The education was there should he choose to avail himself of it. I would hope he wanted to or intended to get his degree, but the fact remains that both guys needed a class to remain eligible. The class selected by both Croyle and Doug was in a major and counted toward a diploma. Therefore, there is no difference.

Easy classes are easy classes. Bama guys shouldn't over graduation rates. Those are what they are.

249098[/snapback]

Well.. this has turned into a circle argument. The fact to me is Brodie already had his degree and Charlie had two. They didn't need the classes to graduate. The fact that it may have counted toward a diploma in basket weaving versus a diploma in sociology is a difference. You say its not.

Your saying maybe Doug didn't even intend to graduate.. maybe he didn't. I dont know. You say its the same... I say its not. We agree to disagree.

Dear God has the season started yet?!

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Peprah's situation may be different. We're not talking about him. We're talking about J.B and Brodie.

And the only difference is that they wore a different color jersey and are a lot uglier than Doug.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Amen, here is the link for the 6 credit class we are talking about.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...er.2d1ca13.html

I understand what your saying, what does it matter what they take or how its structured because they already have done the work they need. But you can't just structure a special course for athletes that involve basically no work cause they have finished their degree.

That same course with the same workload has to be offered to regular students, if it isn't then its considered preferential treatment and a NCAA violation.

You also can't rule out that maybe somewhere they could decide to get a second degree, and its possible that IS course could be considered a core course for the second degree. So they just got a freebie 6 hours toward that second degree.

I think what Galen is getting at is that there is requirements credit and grade wise for the current semester of sports participation and that just because they have completed a degree doesn't mean they should get a freebie for that semester for elgibility. They should have to do work in a legit class like the athletes that have not yet finished a degree.

And yes, there are athletes that go to college with no intent of getting a degree, its the step that they have to take to go pro in football. Probably alot of them that woulnd't have set foot on a campus if they could go pro after high school.

249083[/snapback]

Well, there are a lot of what if's and its possible in all that. Slippery slope argument's are hard to quantify. Dont you agree? As far as you thinking its preferential treatment.. I think we agree that student athletes get that any way without the NCAA so much as looking up from their latest BCS models, you mentioned quite a few in your previous post.

I guess what im saying is the reason you " go to college" is to earn a degree. Thats the whole point... once its done its done. Its a great accomplishment, I respect anyone who has done it. I think its enough.. more than enough. And I think at least most athletes fully intend to get their degree from the start. Just that other... whatever ( correct word escapes me) gets in the way.

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The whole Auburn case right is built off what if's atm.

Thing is, none of that should have to be a slippery slope. All coursework available to athletes is available to regular students in the same capacity and regardless of earned degree or not there should be no gimmie classes tailored for athletes. Shouldn't be for regular students for the most part, but some instructors are easy. But 6 credit hours for 5 pages is over doing it big time. I don't even get 6 hours for a chem, physics, or anatomy class which includes labs.

Education doesn't just end when you get a degree though. I am earning two degree's myself with one completed already, but just cause I chose to take another psychology class if I desired doesn't mean I should be given a freebie cause my psych degree is complete.

And all do get some, but I don't consider the things they get as scholarship preferential treatement cause they put in alot of time and effort.. those are earned. But that doesn't give them a free pass in the classroom at any point.

[SouthLink02 8]

If a player has already completed the required courses ALREADY and thus only has 1-2 easy classes left to finish before he graduates....what is the big deal?

Good for Leinart...I dont see a single thing wrong with what he did...he worked hard enough to have just 1 class left his final year....

If an AU player had already basically finished his major and could take 1-2 easy classes for the last year/semester....so be it.

[AURainman 6]

Here's the difference. The media PRAISED Matt Lienart and Brodie Croyle.

The media is raking Auburn over the coals for the SAME FRICKIN' THING.

Why?

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

If a player has already completed the required courses ALREADY and thus only has 1-2 easy classes left to finish before he graduates....what is the big deal?

Good for Leinart...I dont see a single thing wrong with what he did...he worked hard enough to have just 1 class left his final year....

If an AU player had already basically finished his major and could take 1-2 easy classes for the last year/semester....so be it.

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Np with that as long as the course is not special constructed for the athlete with the purpose of maintaining eligibility for athletics, and that regular students have the option of taking this class and are held to the same standards.

[SouthLink02 8]

That I agree with that.

I think the difference between the Leinart/Croyle thing is that this involves 18 (right, 18?) AU players while those were just 2 single incidents that were reported.

Now, I don't mean that as in AU did anything wrong but just saying the fact that the story SAID 18 AU players is what makes it different in terms of peoples reaction.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

That I agree with that.

I think the difference between the Leinart/Croyle thing is that this involves 18 (right, 18?) AU players while those were just 2 single incidents that were reported.

Now, I don't mean that as in AU did anything wrong but just saying the fact that the story SAID 18 AU players is what makes it different in terms of peoples reaction.

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I don't think the number matters, the difference in this case is that Leinart was the media darling, and Croyle came out in a story in Dallas about Peprah who was from Plano I think and Closner from San Antionio, no Dallas kids no story on Alabama.

The intent going into the articles were different, Leinart/Croyle being goodie stories, and then the Auburn story being done with the intent of scandal, controversy or whatever.

[SouthLink02 8]

Of course it makes a difference. Leinart/Croyle are just 1 players...hearing 18 players on one team makes some regular joe maybe question it while just 1 player...I mean...who cares?

Again, I dont think what any of those players did was WRONG at all...I am talking about why this story is getting more attention then just those 2 players.

I am sure USC and Bama have players doing what the AU players did but those arent reported.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

I agree with you on the numbers, my point is that the intent was different going into the others stories vs the Auburn one. They didn't go into Auburn thinking lets write a feel good story about Carnell still doing coursework while going to mini-camps and came away with a bad story... they went in with lets attack Carnell's coursework attitude.

[jetermary 6]

Amen, here is the link for the 6 credit class we are talking about.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...er.2d1ca13.html

I understand what your saying, what does it matter what they take or how its structured because they already have done the work they need. But you can't just structure a special course for athletes that involve basically no work cause they have finished their degree.

That same course with the same workload has to be offered to regular students, if it isn't then its considered preferential treatment and a NCAA violation.

You also can't rule out that maybe somewhere they could decide to get a second degree, and its possible that IS course could be considered a core course for the second degree. So they just got a freebie 6 hours toward that second degree.

I think what Galen is getting at is that there is requirements credit and grade wise for the current semester of sports participation and that just because they have completed a degree doesn't mean they should get a freebie for that semester for elgibility. They should have to do work in a legit class like the athletes that have not yet finished a degree.

And yes, there are athletes that go to college with no intent of getting a degree, its the step that they have to take to go pro in football. Probably alot of them that woulnd't have set foot on a campus if they could go pro after high school.

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Many people go back and get their degree at a later date. Personally, I don't know how athletes do it!

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Thats true, there are alot that go back and get them also.

Athletes also have people that go around and make sure they are in class, or coaches get reports on their attendance from instructors. They have required study hours that are checked and they are given excellent tutors and recieve one on one attention in coursework.

Imagine how many students would have better grades if someone checked them every day on attendance and enforced them studying X amount of hours with one on one help.

[AURainman 6]

Of course it makes a difference. Leinart/Croyle are just 1 players...hearing 18 players on one team makes some regular joe maybe question it while just 1 player...I mean...who cares?

Again, I dont think what any of those players did was WRONG at all...I am talking about why this story is getting more attention then just those 2 players.

I am sure USC and Bama have players doing what the AU players did but those arent reported.

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18 players, 97 hours over a FOUR YEAR PERIOD

[AUesquire 1]

Philisophical Rant below:

With regard to Langenfeld's intent to graduate or not to graduate or just play football or score with the college babes...who cares? Regardless of the very real and sobering statistics that very few of these athletes will actually make it to the NFL or NBA, many of these guys come to a college campus with the sole intent of living out their dream of doing just that. For many, college, whether they graduate or not, is a vehicle they can use to make that happen.

Yes, I'd love for every student/athlete we recruit to come in with the noble intention of putting that degree first and have the realization that making a living in professional sports is a true long shot. On the other hand, there are far more opportunities to become a professional in both football and basketball these days. There is the NFL, NFL Europe, Arena Football etc. Basketball has other professional levels before the NBA and many choose to try the leagues in Europe.

Where am I going with this? Actually, I forgot where I...oh yeah...the bottom line is that college is supposed to help prepare us for life. To give us the tools we need to go out into the world and make a living for ourselves and our families. If an athlete wants to use college as a means to get into professional sports, then so be it. Who are we to try and tell a guy he shouldn't be focused on signing an NFL contract and getting a $2 Million signing bonus? As long as he's doing what is required to remain eligible and not doing anything unethical or against the rules. We love our graduation statistics, but if a guy is just using Auburn University to get to the next level, that's his business, his future, his life. Not ours.

Student/athletes go through far more than many of us can dream, both physically and mentally, just so we can cheer them on Saturdays and gloat to our rivals and post about it on a message board. Aren't we using him to a certain extent?

[DKW 86 7,425]

Now on to Mr. Galen:

There is ZERO difference in taking a class to remain eligible to participate in a bowl game and taking a class to remain eligible to participate in a bowl game

Huh?

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Brodie Croyle took a class to remain eligible for a bowl game in his senior season. Doug Langenfeld took a class to remain eligible for a bowl game in his senior season.

ZERO difference. No difference whatsoever. To claim otherwise is absurd.

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Brodie has / had a diploma.... Doug did / does not.

http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/huntsvill...ll=1&thispage=2

Also, Doug was dropped from a class which put him in a bind. So I have to disagree, not declaring righteousness, but there is a difference. Whether or not it should or should not matter is where the point of view and debate comes in.

In the fall of 2004, Mr. Langenfeld found himself in an academic bind. More than two months into the fall semester, he realized that he had been attending the wrong class because of a scheduling error. Mr. Langenfeld approached Professor Gundlach about adding a class, but Professor Gundlach said he could not help him because it was too late in the semester.

Mr. Langenfeld then went to his academic counselor in the athletic department, Brett Wohlers, with a plea: “I got dropped from a class and need a class to stay eligible for the bowl game,” Mr. Langenfeld recalled in a recent telephone interview. “I need a class, and I’ll take any class right now. I don’t not want to play in my last bowl game.”

He said Mr. Wohlers told him about a “one-assignment class” that other players had taken and enjoyed. So in the “9th or 10th week,” Mr. Langenfeld said, he picked up a directed-reading course with Professor Petee. Semesters typically run 15 weeks.

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What in Aunt Clara's bloomers does "graduated or not graduated" have to do with it?

What was the motivation for Brodie taking the class: Remain eligible.

What was the motivation for Doug taking the class: Remain eligible.

Apples to apples. PERIOD.

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The difference is whether or not it counts toward the completion of your degree. If it is just to remain eligible with no bearing on your diploma because you have already earned it.... then no... your right... no difference.

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WAIT a freakin minute, here, he had completed his degree??????

RTFA are you saying what I think you are? Bama didnt graduate him when the hours were complete? Thereby stopping him from having to go take a grad school intro qualifying exam?

We have kids on our team in grad school when they complete a degree, ala Ben Obamanu. Are you telling me that Bama witheld bestowing his degree so that he could slouch through some bogus undergrad courses and still play ball?

Hello NCAA...can you say Special Benefits Part II?

The class Brodie and JB took has to be available to all students before, during, and after the fact for it to not be a special benefit. THAT is the POINT.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

They can't do anything about that though, cause you have to declare youself for graduation. If that was the case and you had to graduate upon completion of a degree than I would have had to walk already. But since I'm doing two undegrad's I havn't declared for graduation yet and thanks to a one class earned myself one more football season.

Hard to believe that I wasn't allowed to take a make-up exam when I had to get my mom from the airport to rush her to my grandmother who had a stroke and had to be moved into a assistant living home after this. I had university approved excuses for this also. And since it was after midterm she gave me a NR, basically a F, after denying my request for withdrawl. Course I am still contesting this, and she won't even answer my dean or advisors emaills or calls.... perhaps SACS should look into that rather than someone taking a crip course.

[Ravad 77]

Of course it makes a difference. Leinart/Croyle are just 1 players...hearing 18 players on one team makes some regular joe maybe question it while just 1 player...I mean...who cares?

Again, I dont think what any of those players did was WRONG at all...I am talking about why this story is getting more attention then just those 2 players.

I am sure USC and Bama have players doing what the AU players did but those arent reported.

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18 players, 97 hours over a FOUR YEAR PERIOD

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I heard 18 "Student Athletes" were they all football players?

[DKW 86 7,425]

They can't do anything about that though, cause you have to declare youself for graduation.  If that was the case and you had to graduate upon completion of a degree than I would have had to walk already.  But since I'm doing two undegrad's I havn't declared for graduation yet and thanks to a one class earned myself one more football season.

Hard to believe that I wasn't allowed to take a make-up exam when I had to get my mom from the airport to rush her to my grandmother who had a stroke and had to be moved into a assistant living home after this. I had university approved excuses for this also. And since it was after midterm she gave me a NR, basically a F, after denying my request for withdrawl. Course I am still contesting this, and she won't even answer my dean or advisors emaills or calls.... perhaps SACS should look into that rather than someone taking a crip course.

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Thanks, I forgot about the dual exception. Still like that our guys are enrolling in grad school though.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

I think you can use a minor also, cause most minors are a extra 15 hours on average I think.

I learned about the dual degree/dual major the hard way. It turns out if your in the same school its dual majors, but if different, like one of mine in liberal arts and one in education you must also complete any core differences and its a dual degree then. I sorta avoided some of my more fearsome Ex Sci stuff and ended up finishing the psych first on accident lol.

[WarTim 3,456]

Crodie must have failed miserably at the "Dancin'" classes. It should have improved his sack collapse moves a bit more if he was at the head of his class.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Crodie must have failed miserably at the "Dancin'" classes. It should have improved his sack collapse moves a bit more if he was at the head of his class.

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He did fall to the ground very gracefully. Maybe they did help afterall.

[UA-CT 1]

Crodie must have failed miserably at the "Dancin'" classes. It should have improved his sack collapse moves a bit more if he was at the head of his class.

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He did fall to the ground very gracefully. Maybe they did help afterall.

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A career that included two blown knees I imagine, he didn't need alot of help....Maybe, he did a book report on dancing since Matt Leinart actually took the Ballroom dancing class. Both however, are college graduates...

[WarTim 3,456]

Crodie must have failed miserably at the "Dancin'" classes. It should have improved his sack collapse moves a bit more if he was at the head of his class.

249559[/snapback]

He did fall to the ground very gracefully. Maybe they did help afterall.

249574[/snapback]

A career that included two blown knees I imagine, he didn't need alot of help....Maybe, he did a book report on dancing since Matt Leinart actually took the Ballroom dancing class. Both however, are college graduates...

249576[/snapback]

So are each and EVERY player that has GRADUATED from AU under this staff.

Now you are starting to see the picture.