Deeper examination of Rev. Wright's infamous sermons

[DKW 86 7,441]

While in the navy, the discussion of the invasion of Japan was for literally a million casualties on both sides. Either way, war is hell. The decisions on dropping of atomic bombs was done by leaders with the best info available back then.

Titan, you have to remember that we had already fought a war for 4+ years and had casualties of 416,800 The idea of ending the war without adding to that number would have been very inviting. Japan had 2,100,000 noncombatant deaths and 580,000 combabtant deaths. I know we all want to view war in a clinical, academic fashion. I do not think you can ever do that. War is the end result of Man's many flaws, yet we still have war after all these wars and deaths over the history of mankind.

WWII 40-72M

WWI 19-59M

Korea 2.3-3.5M

Vietnam 2.5-5M

Mongol Invasion 30-60M

Tai Ping Rebellion 20-30M

Manchu Conquest 25M

Russian Civil War 5-9M

Russian Purges 15-20M

Napoleon's Wars 3.5-16M

I dont know that God ever wanted nor ever felt the need to kill on that level. Man certainly DID and DOES to this day. When you have religious and secular organizations that DO NOT VALUE THE INDIVIDUAL, you will get whole scale deaths. Wars in the future will be fought and we will see big death tolls too. In Rwanda, a war Clinton just did exactly nothing about, they were losing civilians at the rate of 50K a day. That's right, our Vietnam losses just about every day. They lost 800K in no time and The U.S. and the UN did NOTHING. They were on a pace to beat Japan's total losses in WWII btw.

So according to Wright et al, we should all be damned for doing nothing and for when we do something to end the wars. That is a great view to have. You can "GD" everything your enemies DO AND DONT DO. If we step into a conflict to end the deaths (WWII), "GD America." If they stay away and let the slaughter go on, well "GD America" again. What a great idea! Just beat up your political opponents at every turn and declare your own faux-righteousness for being sssooo Christ-like.

Wow, we have accomplished so much and bettered mankind with all this GDing everything. I think I'll go out and GD the rest of the world and just feel so faux-righteous about myself, like Wright and some here in this thread, I just might explode.

[TexasTiger 13,030]

So according to Wright et al, we should all be damned for doing nothing and for when we do something to end the wars.

Unless you have a link to something I haven't seen, I don't believe that is an accurate representation of what he said. In the post 9/11 sermon he never said we must be a pacifist country no matter what. The thrust of that sermon was to address our desire for vengeance and to put such desires in perspective. We can keep a more cool, rational focus on responding to the forces that attacked us and posed an ongoing threat to us, or, as in Psalm 137, we can rationalize a much more vengeful approach. Christ could have easily said this: "Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism."

The GD America was in response to how he saw America as having treated folks who could be seen as "the least of these", i.e. "for treating our citizens as less than human. GD America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme." What Christ said:

‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

[tiger88 934]

Speaking of killing. Looks like wright has made a killing of the church as he gets ready to move into his new $10 million+ mansion. Funny to see some here struggle to defend him. To me he is a typical scare the masses and stuff your pockets type preacher. Full of crap and consumed by his ego as his recent inability to keep his mouth shut shows.

Everytime he opens his mouth he hurts Obama. Heard last night on Fox that Spike Lee has now begged him to shut up and flat out said it looks like someone is paying him to run his mouth and hurt obama. Not a fan of lee's but thought the comments were funny, and who knows? Maybe he feels the need to add a new wing onto his mansion and sees another opportunity to make some $$$.

[Tigermike 3,055]

Speaking of killing. Looks like wright has made a killing of the church as he gets ready to move into his new $10 million+ mansion. Funny to see some here struggle to defend him. To me he is a typical scare the masses and stuff your pockets type preacher. Full of crap and consumed by his ego as his recent inability to keep his mouth shut shows.

Everytime he opens his mouth he hurts Obama. Heard last night on Fox that Spike Lee has now begged him to shut up and flat out said it looks like someone is paying him to run his mouth and hurt obama. Not a fan of lee's but thought the comments were funny, and who knows? Maybe he feels the need to add a new wing onto his mansion and sees another opportunity to make some $$$.

$$$$$$$ talks and BS walks. In the case of Wright and Obama it does both.

[TexasTiger 13,030]

Funny to see some here struggle to defend him.

I think Wright is worthy of criticism and have done so here. As with anyone, however, criticism is more valid when it is accurate.

[DKW 86 7,441]

So according to Wright et al, we should all be damned for doing nothing and for when we do something to end the wars.

Unless you have a link to something I haven't seen, I don't believe that is an accurate representation of what he said. In the post 9/11 sermon he never said we must be a pacifist country no matter what. The thrust of that sermon was to address our desire for vengeance and to put such desires in perspective. We can keep a more cool, rational focus on responding to the forces that attacked us and posed an ongoing threat to us, or, as in Psalm 137, we can rationalize a much more vengeful approach. Christ could have easily said this: "Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism."

The GD America was in response to how he saw America as having treated folks who could be seen as "the least of these", i.e. "for treating our citizens as less than human. GD America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme." What Christ said:

‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

Tex, this country has out done all others in these regards. We are the leaders in charity by many many miles and yet we to be damned by God. Excuse me/us if the rest of us just dont get it. You lead the world in charitable acts and yet you are damned? What have we spent on The Great Society programs $3-5TN? We have spent more money and time than any other country on charity and yet we are to be damned by God? Really? You beleive this crap?

Of course you dont. What you think is that criticizing the US is okay. Fine, I criticize them for wasting money, for not living up to promises. I criticize them for how they make millionaires of their friends and disregard the middle class taxpayers. I criticize them for plenty of things, but not for lack of caring for the poor. That is just plain silly.

We have sacrificed jobs, investments, etc. so we can provide for the poor. We have allowed money from ADC, WIC, etc to buy drugs, alcohol, etc. We invented food stamps just so Southside of Chicago and manufacture a way around them. We have wasted so much trying to do good and what has it gotten us? People that stand there with their collective hands still out, preachers, and politicians wanting still more.

[TexasTiger 13,030]

So according to Wright et al, we should all be damned for doing nothing and for when we do something to end the wars.

Unless you have a link to something I haven't seen, I don't believe that is an accurate representation of what he said. In the post 9/11 sermon he never said we must be a pacifist country no matter what. The thrust of that sermon was to address our desire for vengeance and to put such desires in perspective. We can keep a more cool, rational focus on responding to the forces that attacked us and posed an ongoing threat to us, or, as in Psalm 137, we can rationalize a much more vengeful approach. Christ could have easily said this: "Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism."

The GD America was in response to how he saw America as having treated folks who could be seen as "the least of these", i.e. "for treating our citizens as less than human. GD America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme." What Christ said:

‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

Tex, this country has out done all others in these regards. We are the leaders in charity by many many miles and yet we to be damned by God. Excuse me/us if the rest of us just dont get it. You lead the world in charitable acts and yet you are damned? What have we spent on The Great Society programs $3-5TN? We have spent more money and time than any other country on charity and yet we are to be damned by God? Really? You beleive this crap?

Of course you dont. What you think is that criticizing the US is okay. Fine, I criticize them for wasting money, for not living up to promises. I criticize them for how they make millionaires of their friends and disregard the middle class taxpayers. I criticize them for plenty of things, but not for lack of caring for the poor. That is just plain silly.

We have sacrificed jobs, investments, etc. so we can provide for the poor. We have allowed money from ADC, WIC, etc to buy drugs, alcohol, etc. We invented food stamps just so Southside of Chicago and manufacture a way around them. We have wasted so much trying to do good and what has it gotten us? People that stand there with their collective hands still out, preachers, and politicians wanting still more.

David to Jesus on judgment day: "I don't want to hear any criticism, Lord. We're a helluva lot better than China, so shut your pie hole!"

BTW, every Western European country has less poverty than we do. Yeah, I know, they're damn "socialists."

Yes, criticizing the US is okay. In any free society, criticizing the government is okay. Critically examining what the government does is necessary to improve it. It was right to criticize a Constitution that institutionalized slavery and doing so led to amending and improving it.

Any criticism is more valid, however, when it is accurate and given context. My criticism of Wright, as well as Obama's criticism of him, is that he often failed to do that and painted a distorted picture. My criticism of you in this thread is the same. You mischaracterized his position. You can certainly state his position correctly, AND THEN criticize it. Or you can just rant on. Doesn't really matter to me. Just pointing it out.

[tiger88 934]

Funny to see some here struggle to defend him.

I think Wright is worthy of criticism and have done so here. As with anyone, however, criticism is more valid when it is accurate.

Well, I think he is reaping what he has sown, so I'll leave it to others to clarify what they see as inaccuracies in some of some of the criticisms against him. When you are a screaming buffoon on a church stage you pretty much lose all credibility with me, so the finer points really don't matter.

The real issue about wright and obama is beginning to stick out like a sore thumb. How could Obama spend 20 years around the man and not know about his beliefs as he has claimed? If he did lie about knowledge of Wrights preachings and beliefs, why? The answer to the first question is an extremely tough one to attempt to conjure up. The answer to the 2nd is pretty obvious.

[Tigermike 3,055]

The real issue about wright and obama is beginning to stick out like a sore thumb. How could Obama spend 20 years around the man and not know about his beliefs as he has claimed? If he did lie about knowledge of Wrights preachings and beliefs, why? The answer to the first question is an extremely tough one to attempt to conjure up. The answer to the 2nd is pretty obvious.

Either he was lying about what he heard or he was sleeping in church.

[DKW 86 7,441]

The two real problems in this thread.

1) If Wright is correct in his assumptions then arent you also saying that Westboro Baptist has a point too? I think you are. I think you now realize that too. If the US's "Chickens are coming home to roost" then guess who else also believes that?

GodHatesAmerica.com

Congratulations to some of you. You have become the thing you detest. A judgmental, small minded, HateAmericaFirst whacko. Does America do everything PERFECTLY? Hell no! But to sit behind your keyboard and proclaim to be some sanctimonious self righteous holier-than-thou uber Christian puts you in some real strange company.

Westboro's Insane site...

Hell has room for all of your soldiers, America! George Bush has been suckered into a bloody, senseless war that he can't win by a God determined to execute vengeful justice on a disobedient nation. You hated your children, raising them for the devil and hell, teaching them to murder their unborn babies, eat feces, and practice every form of sexual perversion the dark mind of man can create. You cannot silence the preaching at their funerals, and if you had half a brain, you'd embrace it as the only truth of God you've ever heard. Number who have entered hell as punishment for your sins.

and...

God Hates America. This is a profound theological statement that any God-fearing person will recognize as truth. America is on a path to sure destruction, and there is no remedy available to Her anymore. She was once a great nation, like Sodom and Gomorrah, blessed with great propserity and power not before seen in the modern world. And, like Sodom and Gomorrah, she has spit in the face of God until His wrath has been brought down upon her with fierce anger. "Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them" (Ezekiel 5:13). America is the spitting image of ancient Israel and Judah "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy" (2 Chr 36:16).

Listen to Westboro's Claim Of "America's Chickens Coming Home to Roost."

Hey, they are using scripture to show that, just like Wright, that God Hates America.

The ony difference ios that Where Wright just wants $$$ for past imoperfections, Westboro wants America destroyed for their obsession on the negative.

Now America wasn't perfect then, isnt perfect now, and will never be perfect. But to pick on only the negatives and proclaim that the "End of the World" brigade has had it right all along is just, IMHO, nuts. We are imperfcet men and women living out out lives and doing so on a level never before seen on earth. And for that we, our children, and our country should be damned?

Funny, I thought God took care of this stuff on a personal level, not making one responsible for the imperfections of another as well.

2) If you really believe that this was "America's Chickens Coming Home to Roost" then please go get off your ass and put action to those words. If you TRULY believe that, then YOU MUST TAKE ACTION. Bet you dont do a damn thing buit sit there behind your keyboard just like you were before this incredibly sorry thread started.

[TexasTiger 13,030]

Your the one going to ridiculous extremes in this discussion. This post is one of your worst.

The two real problems in this thread.

1) If Wright is correct in his assumptions then arent you also saying that Westboro Baptist has a point too? I think you are. I think you now realize that too. If the US's "Chickens are coming home to roost" then guess who else also believes that?

GodHatesAmerica.com

Congratulations to some of you. You have become the thing you detest. A judgmental, small minded, HateAmericaFirst whacko. Does America do everything PERFECTLY? Hell no! But to sit behind your keyboard and proclaim to be some sanctimonious self righteous holier-than-thou uber Christian puts you in some real strange company.

Westboro's Insane site...

Hell has room for all of your soldiers, America! George Bush has been suckered into a bloody, senseless war that he can't win by a God determined to execute vengeful justice on a disobedient nation. You hated your children, raising them for the devil and hell, teaching them to murder their unborn babies, eat feces, and practice every form of sexual perversion the dark mind of man can create. You cannot silence the preaching at their funerals, and if you had half a brain, you'd embrace it as the only truth of God you've ever heard. Number who have entered hell as punishment for your sins.

and...

God Hates America. This is a profound theological statement that any God-fearing person will recognize as truth. America is on a path to sure destruction, and there is no remedy available to Her anymore. She was once a great nation, like Sodom and Gomorrah, blessed with great propserity and power not before seen in the modern world. And, like Sodom and Gomorrah, she has spit in the face of God until His wrath has been brought down upon her with fierce anger. "Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them" (Ezekiel 5:13). America is the spitting image of ancient Israel and Judah "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy" (2 Chr 36:16).

Listen to Westboro's Claim Of "America's Chickens Coming Home to Roost."

Hey, they are using scripture to show that, just like Wright, that God Hates America.

The ony difference ios that Where Wright just wants $$$ for past imoperfections, Westboro wants America destroyed for their obsession on the negative.

Now America wasn't perfect then, isnt perfect now, and will never be perfect. But to pick on only the negatives and proclaim that the "End of the World" brigade has had it right all along is just, IMHO, nuts. We are imperfcet men and women living out out lives and doing so on a level never before seen on earth. And for that we, our children, and our country should be damned?

Funny, I thought God took care of this stuff on a personal level, not making one responsible for the imperfections of another as well.

2) If you really believe that this was "America's Chickens Coming Home to Roost" then please go get off your ass and put action to those words. If you TRULY believe that, then YOU MUST TAKE ACTION. Bet you dont do a damn thing buit sit there behind your keyboard just like you were before this incredibly sorry thread started.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Yes. It is an accurate assessment. The Japanese military had been indoctrinated in the “death before dishonor” code of Bushido. The Kamikaze attacks, the Banzai charges, and the fighting until the last man & then blowing themselves up with a hand grenade or urging civilians to commit suicide by throwing themselves off a cliff as they did on the island of Saipan are all well documented. Your assertion that it was only “a small minority” that wanted to continue the fighting does not square with the facts: Link

Your own link disagrees with you and supports the article I posted:

Extremists in Japan were also calling for a death-before-dishonor mass suicide, modeled on the "47 Ronin" incident. By mid-June the cabinet had agreed to approach the Soviet Union to act as a mediator, though not before the bargaining position had been improved by a repulse of the coming Allied invasion of mainland Japan.

On June 22, the Emperor met his ministers, saying "I desire that concrete plans to end the war, unhampered by existing policy, be speedily studied and that efforts be made to implement them." The attempt to negotiate a peace via the Soviet Union came to nothing. There was always the threat that extremists would carry out a coup or foment other violence. On July 26, the Allies issued the Potsdam Declaration demanding unconditional surrender. The Japanese government council, the Big Six, considered that option and recommended to the emperor that it be accepted only if one to three conditions were agreed, beginning with a guarantee of the emperor's continued position in Japanese society.

Things deteriorated rapidly from the beginning of 1945 where it was "fight to the last man" to the point in late June, it became a "mass suicide" option (this just days after the reaffirmation of "fight to the last man). That's one huge step. But by July with Germany having surrendered and the Soviets invading Manchuria after letting their neutrality pact with Japan expire, the Japanese government and the emperor himself were ready to surrender if they could negotiate something better than Potsdam, particularly on the place of the emperor in Japanese society.

The likelihood of a land invasion being needed was not high. Not to mention, we could have always attempted to negotiate a surrender first, then if it became apparent they weren't living up to it take more drastic measures before annihilating hundreds of thousands of non-combatants.

And all of this arguing about military strategy ultimately misses the point that it still isn't acceptable from a Christian moral perspective.

As the many quotes I've shown demonstrate, this was the opinion of Eisenhower, MacArthur, and many people in the Truman Administration that were certainly better versed on the situation than you or me.

And the real tragedy is again, not that we tried this option and it didn't work...it's that we didn't even attempt it. We knew it to be a viable option, we utterly ignored it and didn't make any moves whatsoever to give it a chance, and instead vaporized 200,000 people. That's just messed up.

Again, the facts do not support your opinion: Link

... Against this background, while fighting on Okinawa still continued, the President had his naval chief of staff, Adm. William D. Leahy, notify the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) and the Secretaries of War and Navy that a meeting would be held at the White House on June 18. The night before the conference Truman wrote in his diary that “I have to decide Japanese strategy—shall we invade Japan proper or shall we bomb and blockade? That is my hardest decision to date. But I’ll make it when I have all the facts.” Truman met with the chiefs at three-thirty in the afternoon. Present were Army Chief of Staff Gen. George C. Marshall, Army Air Force’s Gen. Ira C. Eaker (sitting in for the Army Air Force’s chief of staff, Henry H. Arnold, who was on an inspection tour of installations in the Pacific), Navy Chief of Staff Adm. Ernest J. King, Leahy (also a member of the JCS), Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, and Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy. Truman opened the meeting, then asked Marshall for his views. Marshall was the dominant figure on the JCS. He was Truman’s most trusted military adviser, as he had been President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s.

Marshall reported that the chiefs, supported by the Pacific commanders Gen. Douglas MacArthur and Adm. Chester W. Nimitz, agreed that an invasion of Kyushu “appears to be the least costly worthwhile operation following Okinawa.” Lodgment in Kyushu, he said, was necessary to make blockade and bombardment more effective and to serve as a staging area for the invasion of Japan’s main island of Honshu. The chiefs recommended a target date of November 1 for the first phase, code-named Olympic, because delay would give the Japanese more time to prepare and because bad weather might postpone the invasion “and hence the end of the war” for up to six months. Marshall said that in his opinion, Olympic was “the only course to pursue.” The chiefs also proposed that Operation Cornet be launched against Honshu on March 1, 1946.

Leahy’s memorandum calling the meeting had asked for casualty projections which that invasion might be expected to produce. Marshall stated that campaigns in the Pacific had been so diverse “it is considered wrong” to make total estimates. All he would say was that casualties during the first thirty days on Kyushu should not exceed those sustained in taking Luzon in the Philippines—31,000 men killed, wounded, or missing in action. “It is a grim fact,” Marshall said, “that there is not an easy, bloodless way to victory in war.” Leahy estimated a higher casualty rate similar to Okinawa, and King guessed somewhere in between.

King and Eaker, speaking for the Navy and the Army Air Forces respectively, endorsed Marshall’s proposals. King said that he had become convinced that Kyushu was “the key to the success of any siege operations.” He recommended that “we should do Kyushu now” and begin preparations for invading Honshu. Eaker “agreed completely” with Marshall. He said he had just received a message from Arnold also expressing “complete agreement.” Air Force plans called for the use of forty groups of heavy bombers, which “could not be deployed without the use of airfields on Kyushu.” Stimson and Forrestal concurred.

Truman summed up. He considered “the Kyushu plan all right from the military standpoint” and directed the chiefs to “go ahead with it.” He said he “had hoped that there was a possibility of preventing an Okinawa from one end of Japan to the other,” but “he was clear on the situation now” and was “quite sure” the chiefs should proceed with the plan. Just before the meeting adjourned, McCloy raised the possibility of avoiding an invasion by warning the Japanese that the United States would employ atomic weapons if there were no surrender. The ensuing discussion was inconclusive because the first test was a month away and no one could be sure the weapons would work. ...

Truman's main concern was avoiding the kind of bloodbaths that Iwo & Okinawa produced. As for Admiral Leahy’s comments:

... Another myth that has attained wide attention is that at least several of Truman’s top military advisers later informed him that using atomic bombs against Japan would be militarily unnecessary or immoral, or both. There is no persuasive evidence that any of them did so. None of the Joint Chiefs ever made such a claim, although one inventive author has tried to make it appear that Leahy did by braiding together several unrelated passages from the admiral’s memoirs. Actually, two days after Hiroshima, Truman told aides that Leahy had “said up to the last that it wouldn’t go off.”

What about MacArthur & Nimitz – the two principal commanders in the Pacific Theater?

... Neither MacArthur nor Nimitz ever communicated to Truman any change of mind about the need for invasion or expressed reservations about using the bombs. When first informed about their imminent use only days before Hiroshima, MacArthur responded with a lecture on the future of atomic warfare and even after Hiroshima strongly recommended that the invasion go forward. Nimitz, from whose jurisdiction the atomic strikes would be launched, was notified in early 1945. “This sounds fine,” he told the courier, “but this is only February. Can’t we get one sooner?” Nimitz later would join Air Force generals Carl D. Spaatz, Nathan Twining, and Curtis LeMay in recommending that a third bomb be dropped on Tokyo. ...

And then finally, Eisenhower’s supposed opinions on the subject:

... Only Dwight D. Eisenhower later claimed to have remonstrated against the use of the bomb. In his Crusade in Europe, published in 1948, he wrote that when Secretary Stimson informed him during the Potsdam Conference of plans to use the bomb, he replied that he hoped “we would never have to use such a thing against any enemy,” because he did not want the United States to be the first to use such a weapon. He added, “My views were merely personal and immediate reactions; they were not based on any analysis of the subject.”

Eisenhower’s recollections grew more colorful as the years went on. A later account of his meeting with Stimson had it taking place at Ike’s headquarters in Frankfurt on the very day news arrived of the successful atomic test in New Mexico. “We’d had a nice evening at headquarters in Germany,” he remembered. Then, after dinner, “Stimson got this cable saying that the bomb had been perfected and was ready to be dropped. The cable was in code . . . ‘the lamb is born’ or some damn thing like that.” In this version Eisenhower claimed to have protested vehemently that “the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” “Well,” Eisenhower concluded, “the old gentleman got furious.”

The best that can be said about Eisenhower’s memory is that it had become flawed by the passage of time. Stimson was in Potsdam and Elsenhower in Frankfurt on July 16, when word came of the successful test. Aside from a brief conversation at a flag-raising ceremony in Berlin on July 20, the only other time they met was at Ike’s headquarters on July 27. By then orders already had been sent to the Pacific to use the bombs if Japan had not yet surrendered. Notes made by one of Stimson’s aides indicate that there was a discussion of atomic bombs, but there is no mention of any protest on Eisenhower’s part. Even if there had been, two factors must be kept in mind. Eisenhower had commanded Allied forces in Europe, and his opinion on how close Japan was to surrender would have carried no special weight. More important, Stimson left for home immediately after the meeting and could not have personally conveyed Ike’s sentiments to the President, who did not return to Washington until after Hiroshima. ...

My main problem is that while I was able to cite the actual sources MacArthur, Leahy and Nimitz's quotes came from, this American Heritage article lacks any footnotes or citations. Before accepting even a professor of history's word on something, I'd like to see some evidence with actual citations.

Anyways, sorry for the length of this post but I did want to be accurate. Getting back to Rev Wright’s assertion about the ‘chickens coming home to roost’ comment: the main thing that doesn’t square with that worldview is this: if the Japanese were the victims of a purely terrorist atomic bomb attack, then shouldn’t they be attempting to attack America with atomic bombs? Similarly, how come the Germans have no interest in retaliating against US or UK cities with terrorist attacks using incendiary bombs? I want someone to ‘splain it to me with a straight face how Muslim fanatics can possibly be justified in their terrorist attacks on US interests because of Hiroshima or Dresden when Germany & Japan happen to be two of our staunchest allies today. How many here think Muslim fanatics give a hoot about 'Just War Doctrine'?

You're confusing a couple of things. Saying that God might allow evil to befall a nation or a government for things it has done is not condoning the actions of the people who attack us. The Old Testament is replete with references to God judging Israel for its sins and oftentimes that judgment came in the form of an attack on or conquering of Israel by a foreign power like Babylon or Assyria. God removed His protection from Israel and their neighbors ransacked them and took them as slaves. That didn't mean that God viewed Babylon as righteous or justified. Far from it. He condemned their bloodthirstiness and greed as well and they would be judged accordingly.

Similarly with 9/11, it wasn't a justifiable act and God will judge the perpetrators of 9/11 accordingly. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't allow evil to happen sometimes in the context of judgment on a government.

Finally, I don't believe Muslims do care about Just War Doctrine. But we're talking about war from a Christian perspective and if we want to ask God to "bless America" as the song says, we can't do things that go against His laws. Killing innocent civilians would be one of those things.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

The two real problems in this thread.

1) If Wright is correct in his assumptions then arent you also saying that Westboro Baptist has a point too? I think you are. I think you now realize that too. If the US's "Chickens are coming home to roost" then guess who else also believes that?

GodHatesAmerica.com

This is an error of logic using "guilt by association." For instance, I could just as easily say that your belief in the Bible as absolute authority and that sex should be reserved for a man and a woman in a committed, monogamous marriage relationship should be called into question because "guess who else believes that?"

Westboro Baptist Church

Congratulations to some of you. You have become the thing you detest. A judgmental, small minded, HateAmericaFirst whacko. Does America do everything PERFECTLY? Hell no! But to sit behind your keyboard and proclaim to be some sanctimonious self righteous holier-than-thou uber Christian puts you in some real strange company.

Was this directed at me?

Now America wasn't perfect then, isnt perfect now, and will never be perfect. But to pick on only the negatives and proclaim that the "End of the World" brigade has had it right all along is just, IMHO, nuts. We are imperfcet men and women living out out lives and doing so on a level never before seen on earth. And for that we, our children, and our country should be damned?

I realize that. But "we're only human" doesn't mean that men and women of God shouldn't bring to light the things that a nation or government does that break the laws of God and call them to first, admit the problem and second, repent of it. Not ignore it, spin it to not sound so bad, or excuse it by saying "we do good stuff too!" We wouldn't think of excusing our government's complicity in the horror of abortion or of allowing our society's sexual morality to go in the toilet. Why are we so willing to do it on this?

Funny, I thought God took care of this stuff on a personal level, not making one responsible for the imperfections of another as well.

He often does. But sometimes, as in the case of Israel for instance, he will judge a nation even if each and every individual in the nation isn't complicit. Sometimes our sins hurt others.

2) If you really believe that this was "America's Chickens Coming Home to Roost" then please go get off your ass and put action to those words. If you TRULY believe that, then YOU MUST TAKE ACTION. Bet you dont do a damn thing but sit there behind your keyboard just like you were before this incredibly sorry thread started.

I don't know if it was or not. I do believe it is possible given the Scripture's clear instructions and God's history as recorded there in judging peoples, nations and societies.

I don't know what you expect someone to do other than to take up the prophetic role in the footsteps of Isaiah and Jeremiah and call our nation to change its ways and to repent of its sins.

[autigeremt 6,717]

Man!!!!! This thing is running full speed ahead with no end in sight.

There's a lot of veiws on all of this, and most will spin it which ever way promotes their personal position. Bottom line (the black and white) of all this between Wright and white America is this.....

WE DON'T OWE YOU A !#$* THING!!!!

Here's a little history and why I am tired of some black people who take advantage of their kind and make them think that America is the EVIL EMPIRE..

In 1807 Britain outlawed slavery. In 1820 the king of the African kingdom of Ashanti inquired why the Christians did not want to trade slaves with him anymore, since they worshipped the same god as the Muslims and the Muslims were continuing the trade like before.

The civil rights movement of the 1960's have left many people with the belief that the slave trade was exclusively a European/USA phenomenon and only evil white people were to blame for it. This is a simplicistic scenario that hardly reflects the facts.

Thousands of records of transactions are available on a CDROM prepared by Harvard University and several comprehensive books have been published recently on the origins of modern slavery (namely, Hugh Thomas' The Slave Trade and Robin Blackburn's The Making Of New World Slavery) that shed new light on centuries of slave trading.

What these records show is that the modern slave trade flourished in the early middle ages, as early as 869, especially between Muslim traders and western African kingdoms. For moralists, the most important aspect of that trade should be that Muslims were selling goods to the African kingdoms and the African kingdoms were paying with their own people. In most instances, no violence was necessary to obtain those slaves.

Contrary to legends and novels and Hollywood movies, the white traders did not need to savagely kill entire tribes in order to exact their tribute in slaves. All they needed to do is bring goods that appealed to the kings of those tribes. The kings would gladly sell their own kins.

So, Mr. Wright.....and Mr. Obama.....what are your TRUE intentions? POWER, that's what! I don't trust a man who spends 20 years in a church that preaches and teaches this mess and expects me to give him a pass. WE ARE AMERICANS!!! Until we live by this, we will never be truely unified.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Well, my point wasn't to defend each and every viewpoint that Wright stands for. It was just to critically examine the most often cited issues people have brought up...the G-D America and Chickens Coming Home to Roost comments...in light of Scriptural precedent. I just wanted to point out that just because he has wacked out views on some things doesn't mean you can just dismiss what he said out of hand and that it's amazingly similar to things men of God have said in the past when a government or a nation has ignored God's laws to further its own interests.

Whether Muslims did this or that regarding slavery really is of no particular interest to me because I don't measure morality by what they do or don't do. And neither does God for that matter. He's not sitting up there going, "I was pretty mad at the stuff you've been doing, but then I looked at those damn Muslims and realized you weren't so bad after all."

And then again, as poverty stricken and backwards as Muslim societies and countries have been the last 600 years, who's to say God hasn't been judging them in various ways already?

[DKW 86 7,441]

Guys, this is what I was afraid of when this thread started. American Govt nor any other govt of mankind is perfect. But to single out only one govt and then pray the damnation of God upon it for every time it failed to act perfectly is silly.

Does Wright have a point? Yes, but some of us openly question anything the man says. Just like Westboro Baptist may have a point, the point is lost in all the shrillness. Is American govt bad, certainly until you look at everyone else's govt. Is American society bankrupt? I would agree as well. Does that okay God Damning us all for the slights of an imperfect govt made up of imperfect men? No Way!

James Cone, Black Liberation Theology, as quoted by Wright on the TUCOC website:

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then He is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black people....Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject His love."

[tiger88 934]

Any way you slice it the guy looks at things almost strictly from a white vs. black viewpoint. This is the opposite of what obama claims to do so it is just plain interesting that the guy has been his spiritual advisor for the last 20 years.

Of course his feelings didn't keep him from building a $10 million home in an almost exclusively white neighborhood.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Guys, this is what I was a fraid of when this thread started. American Govt noor any other govt of mankind is perfect. But to single out only one govt and then pray the damnantion of God upon it for every time it failed to act perfectly is silly.

Does Wright have a point? Yes, some of us openly question anythiing the man says. Just like Westboro Baptist may have a point, the point is lost in all the shrillness. Is American govt bad, certainly until you look at everyone else's govt. Is American society bankrupt? I would agree as well. Does that okay God Damning us all for the slights of an imperfect govt made up of imperfect men? No Way!

Well, I already said that I thought the use of "G-D" was over the top and mainly for rhetorical flourish (counterplaying against "God Bless America").

I just don't happen to think that "nobody's perfect" or "we're not as bad as so and so" is a good response to our problems. I think the proper and expected response and the one that all Christians should push our people and government toward is acknowledgement (instead of excuses) and repentance (instead of stubborn defiance and insistence that we were right to use evil means for good ends).

[DKW 86 7,441]

James Cone, Black Liberation Theology, as quoted by Wright on the TUCOC website:

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then He is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black people....Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject His love."

You guys do see why we dont really believe a word Wright now says right?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

David,

Why do you keep bringing up something that I haven't been arguing for? I don't care if Wright thinks big green banana shaped aliens are coming to eat your brains out. I'm talking about what he said and comparing it to Scripture. Wright is not the issue here and never was. I didn't start this thread to get everyone to love Jeremiah Wright.

I wanted to examine the sermons that were causing so much angst and look at them with a more intelligent, critical eye rather than go with the kneejerk reaction people have because of his other views, his personality, his political affiliations and some warped view of patriotism that essentially has come to mean you can't criticize anything we've ever done abroad.

Can we get back to that please?

[TexasTiger 13,030]

Well, my point wasn't to defend each and every viewpoint that Wright stands for. It was just to critically examine the most often cited issues people have brought up...the G-D America and Chickens Coming Home to Roost comments...in light of Scriptural precedent. I just wanted to point out that just because he has wacked out views on some things doesn't mean you can just dismiss what he said out of hand and that it's amazingly similar to things men of God have said in the past when a government or a nation has ignored God's laws to further its own interests.

Exactly. There's no reason that even strong criticism can't be rational and factually based, instead of just knee jerk.

[tiger88 934]

And we have to come to grips with this. As wonderful as our country is and as much good as it has done over the decades, it has also done some horrible, horrible things. Not just "nobody's perfect" or "we're human" kinds of things. Premeditated, cut and dried, with malice aforethought or callous indifferent evil things. And if you believe in a just God, you have to acknowledge that it's not just abortion or the distortion of sexual morality that will get God's attention. How we conduct ourselves in the world toward innocent people will get His attention too. And it's not some balancing act where God adds up all the nice things we do and all the bad and if we somehow keep the scales tilted toward the good He'll wink at the bad. This is some heavy stuff. God expects us to do the good and to also shun the temptation to react in evil ways.

Anyway, this is really long I know. And I'm sure it will poke the hornet's nest, but if I'm being honest, this is the kind of thing that's rattling around my brain after thinking and watching and reading on this stuff for a couple of weeks.

I think that most of our forefathers have done the best they can to do what they feel is right. Many of them were/are guided by Christian Principles, some were/are not. Here's what you do. You do the best you can and then you move on and try to do better the next time if you feel like you screwed up. If you feel the need to pray forgiveness then do it (This is not pointed at you, but anyone.).

Maybe the two nukes dropped on Japan were a mistake and maybe God used us as an instrument to take a bunch of lives (many innocent, some not) in order to save even more in some way. No one will ever know unless God is able to tell them in person. You can play this game with any such accusations of past "sins" of our country or other countries for that matter.

Christians don't hold the wild card on this idea either. When you talk about chickens coming home to roost then you are really talking about Karma in the spiritual world and similar ideas in other religions. Every action has consequences. Maybe some of our "bad" actions in the past will have "bad" consequences for us but will result in more overall "good" than "bad" for us and/or others. It is impossible to gauge many if not all of these things but very easy to vilify those involved.

Another idea is that as long as people like Wright preach to their constituents as being "victims" that is what they will be, victims. It is the typical kind of crap that some black leaders thrive on because they know what some people want to hear. He slams Tiger Woods for being what he is. The difference between Tiger and many of the people that rev. wright is preaching about/to is that Earl Woods let his son know that he was capable of being the greatest golfer in the world if he worked hard at it. Rev. wright would rather sow seeds of victimization for reasons that suit him and some others. He reaps what he sows as Earl Woods reaped what he helped sow in Tiger Woods. (Not speaking towards TW's character because I haven't a clue as to the content.)

The thing that bothers me about goofs like Wright is they claim to know Gods will, like he knows God is punishing America for certain things. That is why he is so arrogant and pompous acting. He is the definition of holier than thou. Who knows what is happening in the grand scheme of things? Maybe we are being punished, maybe tested, who knows? Maybe he is a test for us to overcome, maybe not. Once again, he is preaching what some people want to hear and lining his pockets with gold along the way. I just don't give much weight to overly arrogant screaming preachers say. I could weed through some of it and find points of agreement, but what good would that do? I don't see how it would reinforce or strengthen any of my beliefs, just because this guys says it too.

[TexasTiger 13,030]

Guys, this is what I was afraid of when this thread started. American Govt nor any other govt of mankind is perfect. But to single out only one govt and then pray the damnation of God upon it for every time it failed to act perfectly is silly.

Does Wright have a point? Yes, but some of us openly question anything the man says. Just like Westboro Baptist may have a point, the point is lost in all the shrillness. Is American govt bad, certainly until you look at everyone else's govt. Is American society bankrupt? I would agree as well. Does that okay God Damning us all for the slights of an imperfect govt made up of imperfect men? No Way!

James Cone, Black Liberation Theology, as quoted by Wright on the TUCOC website:

"Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then He is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black people....Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject His love."

Got a link to that? I've never seen that "quote" on the TUCC website.

[DKW 86 7,441]

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=8159

http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/27658

As WND reported yesterday, Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago has removed from the "About Us" page of its website a section outlining its radical belief system for blacks.

[TexasTiger 13,030]

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=8159

http://www.thecitizen.com/~citizen0/node/27658

As WND reported yesterday, Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago has removed from the "About Us" page of its website a section outlining its radical belief system for blacks.

They never had the quote you list above.