Origin of morality discussion

[Ranger12 46]

Think about this. We all are born with the convictions of knowing right and wrong. That conviction has to come from somewhere. Some people try to live by the "do what you want to do" mentality because they do not believe in absolute truth. However, if I was to come up and bunch that same guy in the face and steal his money, I bet all of a sudden that guy would believe in absolute truth because he would believe I just did something wrong. Iur built in sense of right and wrong is not there by coincidence. Our convictions come from somewhere. To have fairness, that means that you have to measuring something to a given law are truth. So the next time you hear an atheist say something like, "that's not fair", then ask them "compared to what?". Even an atheist reports to some kind of standard, yet that standard had to come from somewhere. Bottom line is, regardless of beliefs, all our standards, laws, sense of right and wrong came from somewhere and I can just about 100% guarantee that all of those can be found in the teachings of Christianity and the majority were founded under Christian principles.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Think about this. We all are born with the convictions of knowing right and wrong. That conviction has to come from somewhere.

Partially Correct there ranger12,

Man is born into the sin nature, and made aware of right and wrong through the Holy Spirit's conviction when the age of accountablility is reach. This is called the "Seal Of God."

(God said:) "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it." (Deu 1.39)

For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. (Isa 7.16)

Good news -- the Bible recognizes a difference

At last dawn breaks over the gloom of all the bad news we have looked at thus far...

Both Deuteronomy 1.39 and Isaiah 7.16 acknowledge that children "have no knowledge of good and evil" and do not have the maturity to "know to refuse evil and choose the good."

But WHO is a "child" according to the Bible?

The Age of Accountability as Defined by God

Preceeding paragraphs have shown that God's Bible says children are not fully capable of distinguishing between good and evil (Deu 1.39, Isa 7.16).

Numbers 14.29 and Deuteronomy 1.39 establish the precedent that God will NOT hold children responsible when He brings judgment for sin.

What is a "child?" By inference from Numbers 14.29, a "child" is a person who is aged 19 or younger.

CONCLUSION: Only those persons age 20 and older are held accountable for sin.

Significance of the age of accountability

A person attains the "age of accountability" on his or her 20th birthday.

At age 20 and older, a person who dies without having obeyed the gospel will undergo everlasting destruction from the presence of God.

As defined in Acts 16.31a, obedience to the gospel is simple. Merely "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Bottom line is, regardless of beliefs, all our standards, laws, sense of right and wrong came from somewhere and I can just about 100% guarantee that all of those can be found in the teachings of Christianity and the majority were founded under Christian principles.

Agreed!

[Ranger12 46]

Umm...BF, did you read all of my post? Apparently not or you would not have made the statement that I was partially right. Instead of using scripture, because an atheist will not hear that, you have to use just common logic, thus the reason for my post. I am interested to know what part of my post was only partially correct and which part was not? Yes, we are born in sin, but as we get older, even as very young children, we know when we did something we should not have. So again, what part of your post "further" expounded on my post? You totally missed the whole point of my post BF. I was coming from a Christian perspective and my questions were "rhetorical" pointed to those that do not believe in a higher power or where our standards come from to ask themselves where else could they have come from.

BF, you sure like to quote scripture alot. Seems that you must read it alot, but it also seems that you don't read what it says even more. There is a difference between reading and understanding the Word of God. You are a very dangerous person to the Kingdom of God, because I have seen you twist His Word way too many times. When you have not twisted it. you come out of the blue with a sermon that contradicts the personality you portray in the majority of your posts. Your age of accountability argument is seriously flawed.

[DKW 86 7,499]

Age of accountablility in girls is 12 and boys is 13.

See Bar Mitzvah.

BF, you really blew this one. That is why it is so important for Jesus to be seen at the Temple giving perfect lessons on Torah at age 12.

[Ranger12 46]

I believe there is no set age. I think that age differs for each person, depending on their maturity and comprehension. I think that age of accountability starts when the child realizes that they are a sinner and they need Christ as their savior. That also happens to be when the Holy Spirit starts convicting them without their parents having to explain all right and wrong to them. I have seen kids younger then 12 make that decision and stick to it. However, I do basically agree that around the ages of 11-13 is when that happens. The Bar Mitzvah does use reasonable ages, but it also like alot of religious traditions, it was invented by man and not by commandment. Even alot of things that they did back in Biblical times were man made religious traditions and not commanded by God.

The Bible never told us the age of the rich young ruler, but there is a chance that he was an older teenager, yet Jesus made him accountable by telling the ruler what he must do to enter the Kingdom of God.

My daughter is 12 1/2 years old and I am pretty sure she knows right from wrong without me having to constantly educate her about it. That does not mean I am going to stop either. She recently got saved at church camp and seems more serious about it compared to the other times she was "saved", when she did it because she saw adults or older kids doing it. During those times, instead of telling her she was too young to understand what salvation really is, I just let it go, because I knew why she was really doing it and saw no harm. I think God knows this also. However, I do think she has reached the age of accountability now and this is the real thing for her, so I have to step it up a notch as her father and encourage her walk even more now.

[tiger88 934]

I think that if everyone would spend more time strengthening their own spiritual connection with God instead of itching to point the finger at the unrighteousness of others this world would immediately be better off. The best way to lead is by example, not by pointing the finger at someone and damning them to hell. All that does is promote the ego (I am righteous, you are not) and that is headed in the totally wrong direction. If your connection with God is strong you will do the "right" things naturally and you will attract good things towards you and emanate good things outward. People will sense your state of being at peace with the world that you are a part of and many will want to know that peace. They will want to know how you found that peace so they can perhaps find it themselves.

Many people feel that they must suffer through this world to get the salvation that lies in wait. I believe that you must find peace in this world in order to find that salvation. Peace in this world doesn't involve damning everyone that doesn't agree with your ideals to hell.

Sorry if I rambled on a tangent.

Obviously jmo!

[Bottomfeeder 244]

I think that if everyone would spend more time strengthening their own spiritual connection with God instead of itching to point the finger at the unrighteousness of others this world would immediately be better off. The best way to lead is by example, not by pointing the finger at someone and damning them to hell. All that does is promote the ego (I am righteous, you are not) and that is headed in the totally wrong direction.

I agree completely. When individuals call one group less spiritual than another that is call a religious spirit and is just as dangerous as any of the other demons.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-galatians-5-16-21.htm

I received this book while living in Naperville, Illinois about two years ago. It's titled "The Handbook For Spiritual Warfare" By Dr. Ed Murphy.

http://www.booksofthebible.com/p4332.html

Newly updated and revised, including new material on our warfare with the world and the dangers and pitfalls of careless spiritual warfare, The Handbook for Spiritual Warfare offers biblical guidance and hope for Christians fighting the spiritual war for Christ.

Dr. Ed Murphy offers a thorough look at spiritual warfare and helps you understand and overcome evil in all three dimensions: the World, the Flesh, and the Devil.

[Ranger12 46]

Well said Tiger88! One of the biggerst problems I have with "modern Christianity" is what I call spiritual pride. Too many people and demonitions think their way or their walk is not only better then non-believers, but better then other Christians. I experienced this first hand with a church my best friend went to why he was in school in Tuscaloosa. I won't name the church, but they seemed to always look down on any other christians if they were not part of that church. A small group of them then started a church on the strip in T-Town with great intentions at first, but then it became a spiritual pride thing again eventually. Christ says we are ambassoders and we all have a ministry. I don't agree with the philisophy that we should never talk about our faith with others. I don't agree with keeping it inside the church. I am a very big believer in evangelism, however I do believe there is only one way to do that. That is talk about the love and sacrifice of Christ. Too many "evangelists" and other christians want to be condemning of others, thinking that will lead them to Christ. I don't recall Christ ever being like that in his teachings.

I must disagree with one part of you post Tiger88. You stated that you must find peace in this world before you find that salvation. I believe the opposite. I believe you can't have that peace until you find that salvation. It is like those that say they need to change first before they accept Christ. It does not work that way because if we could change ourselves and find peace ourselves, then why would we need Christ. We need Him to change us and to give us the "peace that passes all understanding".

[CShine 0]

Bottom line is, regardless of beliefs, all our standards, laws, sense of right and wrong came from somewhere and I can just about 100% guarantee that all of those can be found in the teachings of Christianity and the majority were founded under Christian principles.

Basic moral principles are universal. Things like don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't sleep around, those are found in every major religion. Now, different religions address those issues in very different ways when they actually happen in the real world, but the basic moral sense of right and wrong is universal. Compare morality between the major religions and you will find them to be almost identical. The major differences between religions lie in their notions of what is divine. The morals of which you speak are very much a universal thing.

As to the notion that our laws are based on the Bible, nothing could be further from the truth. The New Testament gives almost no guidance on law. The only passages of the Bible that go into the law extensively are found in the Old Testament and they are MUCH closer to Islamic law than anything found in the American system. It some cases it's even harsher. There are Old Testament passages prescribing the death penalty for things like theft, adultery, blasphemy, and failing to honor the Sabbath.

America's legal structure was modeled largely after the Roman Republic which existed before the birth of Christ was certainly not patterned after anything in the Old Testament. We have definitely had a large Christian population since the beginning, but any notion that our government or its laws are patterned after the Bible is just not true.

[Ranger12 46]

As to the notion that our laws are based on the Bible, nothing could be further from the truth.

I think that quote alone best describes how this nation has gotten away from the truth. How can you say that when the majority for our forefathers have quoted scripture and referred to the Bible as the foundation of our laws repeatedly in their own writings. How can deny the fact that the building's of our nation's capital is full of Biblical references? It is funny how this nations decline of morality can be directly connected to the fact that more and more groups keep getting God taken out of everything.

You are right that alot of the world's religions share alot of the same basic moral principles. You think that is just coincidence? Not me. That just soldifies my argument that those principles had to come from some divinity. Old Testament writings are some the earliest ever discovered, so would it not make sense that other religions got their moral standards from it? The Old Testament talks about how one of Islam's major figures came into being, so not surprise there that Islam has close teachings to the Old Testament. Like you said, the problem lies in what or who some consider that divinity. However, it seems that the atheists have more say then any of the religions that proclaim a divine one. My point is if all these religions share a common moral compass, then why is it that the atheists seem to have a problem with that if it means that the world would be a better place. If they don't believe in God, then what harm is it to them? Their un-belief in itself is an established religion. They worship themselves if you want to get right down to it. If they want to do that, then so be it, but they try to force their beliefs on me alot more then I do on them. This country was founded on Biblical principles and you can spin all you want, but it is funny how that was no up for debate until "liberalism" started being a big movement back in the mid to late 20th century. How come all of a sudden it is not right to believe this country was founded upon the laws of the Bible when it was okay for nearly the first 200 years of this country?

CShine, I challenge you to do this. Please give me some historical evidence of your statement and I will in turn give you plenty of statements by our forefathers that would undermine your argument.

BTW, you stated that the New Testament does not reference any laws. Ummm....Christ did reference how we should treat each other several times, so I would consider that I law right there. He talked about adultery and murder also. Best of all, he never said that the laws of the Old Testament were obsolete. He came to "fullfill the law, not change the law".

[bigsixfive 328]

Please give me some historical evidence of your statement and I will in turn give you plenty of statements by our forefathers that would undermine your argument.

Here's one!

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. ~John Quincy Adams

[tiger88 934]

Ranger,

sometimes it is tough to put this stuff into words but I think we are pretty close to agreement on the salvation idea as well. There is no true peace without salvation imo so the way I said it first was a little confusing.

My whole life I have kind of been turned away from Christianity because of the exposure that I have had to it. I have never thought Christianity is a bad religion, but I do think many modern day versions of it have strayed greatly from what Christ preached when he walked the earth. I just saw/see alot of hate/anger in the way it is often taught and in the vibes that many Christians that I know put out.

I always believed in God and a higher purpose for our lives. My problem was that for many years I never studied any form of religious/spiritual teachings. My mind kind of took control of my spirit so to speak. My ego became my identity.

Recently I came across a book which offered a non denominational approach to spiritual devlopment and salvation and it has breathed new life into me. The one thing that I have really noticed are the similarities between many religions and Christianity.

For instance, the connection with God that this book uses as a basis for much of its beliefs is what many Christians would call the Holy Spirit. This book does not believe in a hell or a devil but does teach about "pain bodies and collective pain bodies" which produce pretty much the same effects that the devil and evil do in Christianity.

My point is , I guess, that when people pass judgement on others like we are talking about, they are living through comparison and fortifying the ego. In other words their ego, at least temporily, has become their true identity. I believe we have more than one level of consciousness and the mind/ego is just one of them. Our true identity lies in the level of consciousness that is our connection with God or our connection with the Holy Spirit.

[Ranger12 46]

Please give me some historical evidence of your statement and I will in turn give you plenty of statements by our forefathers that would undermine your argument.

Here's one!

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. ~John Quincy Adams

Thanks bigsixfive. That was just one of hundreds of quotes I have available to refute CShines statement. I have quite a few pages of quotes similiar to that. Quotes by John Adams, Noah Webster, George Washinton, Benjamin Franklin, Patrick Henry and other great forefathers. I also have quotes from other great patriots from days past such as Abraham Lincoln, Francis Scott Key, MLK, and surprise, JFK.

Tiger88, I thought maybe that was what you meant, but I had to make sure. You are right about the way egos get in the way. I was not brought up in a Christian household at all and started going to church on my own when I was 14. I became serious about my walk the first time when I was in the military, but strayed a little bit after I got out. I got serious again when I was 26 and finally realized what a personal relationship with God is all about. I have had my ups and downs since then, but now I know what true worship is about, so I don't let the "distractions" at my church get to me anymore. I also try not to pay as much attention to the hypocrisy, but sometimes that is hard to do. When I go to church, I am there to worship God and Him alone. I don't care what anybody's else reason for being there is, because that is between them and God. If I see somebody go to the altar I life their need up, not try to guess what they are there far as some of my "brothers and sisters" may do. What I love about my Pastor is that even when he knows somebody is doing something to just be seen, instead of being judgemental, he just praises God and thanks them for what they did. I am interested in this book you are reading. I am actually concerned because of the fact you said it stated there was no hell or the devil. I am not trying to condemn, but I can tell you from experience, there is a devil and a book like that can cause more damage to you spiritual walk then you realize. If you would like for me to expound on that, just PM me, because it is personal and not for all on the board.

[Tigermike 3,091]

Just the other day I received this in a newsletter. Interesting to see discussion along these lines. Keep it up guys I am enjoying reading your posts.

"Neither the cultural problem (of [same-sex] marriage) nor its solution can be found in Washington.... Sufficiently large numbers of Americans either do not believe, or do not practice, what the Scriptures teach and cannot be made to do so through a constitutional amendment or any other law. Neither side will persuade the other of the correctness of its position, so it becomes a political power game. Perhaps if those pushing for a constitutional amendment better modeled what they preach for others, they might find more favor among secular powers. According to a survey by the Southern Baptist Council on Family Life: 'The divorce ratio among members of evangelical churches is virtually the same as among non-church members; In the United States, 1 million children [have seen] their parents divorce; The majority of children in America have less than 10 minutes of significant and meaningful conversation with their parents each week. If you remove the mother, you can measure this statistic in seconds.' Conservative Christians could use an 'extreme makeover' to repair their own homes before they demand that others conform to a standard they themselves have trouble meeting." --Cal Thomas

[tiger88 934]

Ranger,

Thanks for sharing this information. That is some great insight into how you deal with the hypocrisy that you sometimes find in church. Sounds like your pastor is a really good one.

I pm'd you about the book and stuff. I don't think the book actually denies the devil but I guess it does indirectly. It has a different look on evil and that sort of stuff. It has its own explanation(pain bodies and collective pain bodies). I really don't think the appraoch is dangerous because if you follow the spiritual direction of the book you will be directed away from that path whether their description is accurate or the one the Bible offers is the correct one.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Bottom line is, regardless of beliefs, all our standards, laws, sense of right and wrong came from somewhere and I can just about 100% guarantee that all of those can be found in the teachings of Christianity and the majority were founded under Christian principles.

Basic moral principles are universal. Things like don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't sleep around, those are found in every major religion. Now, different religions address those issues in very different ways when they actually happen in the real world, but the basic moral sense of right and wrong is universal. Compare morality between the major religions and you will find them to be almost identical. The major differences between religions lie in their notions of what is divine. The morals of which you speak are very much a universal thing.

As to the notion that our laws are based on the Bible, nothing could be further from the truth. The New Testament gives almost no guidance on law. The only passages of the Bible that go into the law extensively are found in the Old Testament and they are MUCH closer to Islamic law than anything found in the American system. It some cases it's even harsher. There are Old Testament passages prescribing the death penalty for things like theft, adultery, blasphemy, and failing to honor the Sabbath.

America's legal structure was modeled largely after the Roman Republic which existed before the birth of Christ was certainly not patterned after anything in the Old Testament. We have definitely had a large Christian population since the beginning, but any notion that our government or its laws are patterned after the Bible is just not true.

I disagree with that. Our law is deeply rooted in Judaeo-Christian principles which are rooted in Old Testament teachings. As far as the U.S......ever heard of the pilgrims which were mostly Quakers? I agree the new Testament is not the root of our laws. After all Jesus said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it.

[CShine 0]

OK, time to deliver the goods. Name the specific laws that are uniquely Christian in origin. It's not enough just to quote some Founding Father unless he names a specific law that is uniquely Christian in origin. I want to see you point out just one example of a uniquely Christian law in the American legal code.

[bigsixfive 328]

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery. (not sure about a law against this, but I know a divorce lawyer can eat you up for it).

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

1. Love One Another

On his last night with his disciples before his crucifixion, Jesus said to them, "I am giving you a new command. You must love each other, just as I have loved you. If you love each other, everyone will know that you are my disciples" (John 13:34, 35).

2. Don't Divorce

If we look at Matthew 5, 31-32, Jesus is quoted as banning divorce except for fornication. Fornication means sexual relationships before marriage, so the meaning of Jesus' words is puzzling. Some Christians take them to mean adultery, but the Catholic Church has never accepted this. Fornication was a name given by Jews to idol worship. This may means that when one partner is not a Christian the marriage might be dissolved? Matthew's gospel and is deeply concerned with the problems faced by the Church.

Jewish law allowed divorce. There were two views. The school of Shammai thought that a man could divorce his wife on serious grounds; the school of Hillel thought that as a wife was the man's property he could divorce her at will. When the Pharisees approached Jesus to ask his views, they were simply finding out which side he was one. Jesus' answer was that divorce was allowed only because of their hardness of hearts. He went on to say that it was not God's original intention that divorce should happen. As Jesus had come to establish God's kingdom, divorce was unacceptable. In a religion of love and forgiveness, there can be no divorce. Simply, a true Christian who wants to live according to Christ's teachings cannot divorce. Christians are confident that through prayer and the influence of God in their lives they can together overcome problems.

3. To Be Continued.

[CShine 0]

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.  (not sure about a law against this, but I know a divorce lawyer can eat you up for it).

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

All these things are found in all the other major religions of the world, which was exactly my original point. Moral principles are universal throughout the religions of the world. The only major way in which religions differ is in their concept of what is divine.

What laws are uniquely Christian? If our laws have all the same basic moral principles you see in nearly every nation throughout the world that doesn't make them Christian. Killing, stealing, lying, adultery, those things are universally denounced. Since just about everybody has laws against killing, stealing, etc., does that make everyone's laws Christian? No.

[CShine 0]

1. Love One Another

On his last night with his disciples before his crucifixion, Jesus said to them, "I am giving you a new command. You must love each other, just as I have loved you. If you love each other, everyone will know that you are my disciples" (John 13:34, 35).

OK, so if that's something that in our law what American law orders us to love one another?

2. Don't Divorce

If we look at Matthew 5, 31-32, Jesus is quoted as banning divorce except for fornication. Fornication means sexual relationships before marriage, so the meaning of Jesus' words is puzzling. Some Christians take them to mean adultery, but the Catholic Church has never accepted this. Fornication was a name given by Jews to idol worship. This may means that when one partner is not a Christian the marriage might be dissolved? Matthew's gospel and is deeply concerned with the problems faced by the Church.

Jewish law allowed divorce. There were two views. The school of Shammai thought that a man could divorce his wife on serious grounds; the school of Hillel thought that as a wife was the man's property he could divorce her at will. When the Pharisees approached Jesus to ask his views, they were simply finding out which side he was one. Jesus' answer was that divorce was allowed only because of their hardness of hearts. He went on to say that it was not God's original intention that divorce should happen. As Jesus had come to establish God's kingdom, divorce was unacceptable. In a religion of love and forgiveness, there can be no divorce. Simply, a true Christian who wants to live according to Christ's teachings cannot divorce. Christians are confident that through prayer and the influence of God in their lives they can together overcome problems.

We're talking about American laws here. Not one bit of any of that is found in America's legal code. Why did you even bring it up?

[quietfan 233]

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.  (not sure about a law against this, but I know a divorce lawyer can eat you up for it).

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

All these things are found in all the other major religions of the world, which was exactly my original point. Moral principles are universal throughout the religions of the world. The only major way in which religions differ is in their concept of what is divine.

What laws are uniquely Christian? If our laws have all the same basic moral principles you see in nearly every nation throughout the world that doesn't make them Christian. Killing, stealing, lying, adultery, those things are universally denounced. Since just about everybody has laws against killing, stealing, etc., does that make everyone's laws Christian? No.

I also thought about CShine's idea a few minutes ago and logged back on to bring it up, only to realize that he had already made the point.

Tentatively, I think I have to agree with him. What major ethical principle do we have in our laws that is not found in the codes of most other cultures and that we can point to as uniquely Judeo-Christian?

I think everything that has been mentioned so far is found in the code of conduct of most non-Christian cultures as well. Certainly the Commandments still incorporated in our legal system--taboos against theft, murder, adultery, and false witness--are quite common in non-Christian cultures as well. The uniquely Judeo-Christian Commandments--no other Gods, respecting the Sabbath, no graven images, dont' take the Lord's name in vain--are not part of our legal code. "Love one another" and The Golden Rule are recognized as ethically sound principles in most cultures, but not legally enforcible in any that I know of.

The first area that occured to me where we might have some uniquely Christina laws is in the treatment of women--monogamy, equal rights, etc.--but even there I think many non-Christian societies practice similar respect for women. [Of course, the "Christian" West has only recognized many rights for women in the last century or so, and some would argue that we still have a ways to go for true equality--but that's another issue.]

I only just thought about this a little while ago and haven't concentrated on it long enough to feel confident in saying there are no exceptions. Perhaps someone can think of examples of American laws that are found only in our Christian heritage--but in reading the responses to CShine it looks like no one has yet. Anyone?