Offensive Comparison

[johnnyAU 3,630]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate. From that point, bring in the right coaches to evaluate and recruit for the type of players for the "base" offense. This would increase the probability of plug and play every year as players move on. In 2010, 2013 and 2015, we heard the team needed 3-4 games into the season to see where they were at. I would like to see most of that cleared up in spring and fall camps before Auburn begins the season. If this occurs again in 2016, Auburn could be in major trouble based on their opening schedule. Does he want to be a more pass-oriented offense? Fine but recruit and scheme for it. Does he want his base offense to be built around the read-option? Fine but recruit for it. Recruiting different styles of QB's forces some schematic change and adjustments carrying over into the start of the season.

2 cents

Exactly. It seemed that Gus wasn't sure of which way to go in the post Nick Marshall era last season. Hopefully he figures that out for 2016.

[FoundationEagle 637]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate. From that point, bring in the right coaches to evaluate and recruit for the type of players for the "base" offense. This would increase the probability of plug and play every year as players move on. In 2010, 2013 and 2015, we heard the team needed 3-4 games into the season to see where they were at. I would like to see most of that cleared up in spring and fall camps before Auburn begins the season. If this occurs again in 2016, Auburn could be in major trouble based on their opening schedule. Does he want to be a more pass-oriented offense? Fine but recruit and scheme for it. Does he want his base offense to be built around the read-option? Fine but recruit for it. Recruiting different styles of QB's forces some schematic change and adjustments carrying over into the start of the season.

2 cents

Exactly. It seemed that Gus wasn't sure of which way to go in the post Nick Marshall era last season. Hopefully he figures that out for 2016.

Well, he still may use a pocket passer for 2016, but if you look at recruiting he's decided to go 100% dual threat so I'd say he's decided at the very least. It may not take affect this year but it's coming

[AU64 10,122]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate.

2 cents

The key to the whole story IMO.

As for Nick, interesting that if he had not gotten in trouble at UGA, he would have spent his college career at DB and nobody would have him in a discussion of this sort. Cam was a known QB quantity from HS and afterward.

So how many good DT college prospects are there? Most I see on the Rivals list are smaller guys...we had one at our HS this year who was shifty and fast....broke all the rushing records, a couple games in the 300 yard range plus punt returning and was a pretty good passer but because of his size, he will end up in FCS or Div II.

As I look at the list of top DT-QBs I note that most are not that big...about the size of SW for example....and not future Cam's who can bulldoze linebackers and DBs. Interesting that in general, the Pro Style guys are usually bigger. Why?

Anyway....seems that creating a competition between your QB prospects means nothing unless you have determined the offense you want to run.

[Malcolm_FleX48 1,869]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate.

2 cents

The key to the whole story IMO.

As for Nick, interesting that if he had not gotten in trouble at UGA, he would have spent his college career at DB and nobody would have him in a discussion of this sort. Cam was a known QB quantity from HS and afterward.

So how many good DT college prospects are there? Most I see on the Rivals list are smaller guys...we had one at our HS this year who was shifty and fast....broke all the rushing records, a couple games in the 300 yard range plus punt returning and was a pretty good passer but because of his size, he will end up in FCS or Div II.

As I look at the list of top DT-QBs I note that most are not that big...about the size of SW for example....and not future Cam's who can bulldoze linebackers and DBs. Interesting that in general, the Pro Style guys are usually bigger. Why?

Anyway....seems that creating a competition between your QB prospects means nothing unless you have determined the offense you want to run.

Well it's really a tough issue to be argued, because admittedly, size doesn't always indicate ability to take hits or run the ball. Yes, when used properly it can make a QB a deadly asset in the run game, though at the same time there are QBs that are undersized who are slippery, shifty, and defenders bounce off of them when making hits. I've hit a few of these guys back at my time in J'ville and A&M and while they're small, they're stronger than they look. Muscle Size =/ muscle strength. Typically, there are some guys who just happen to be on the small end of the gene pool but their skill and strength can make up for that when running the ball.

But...

To answer your other question, typically pro style QBs are bigger because of the nature of the offense. The Pro-Style offense requires an extensive passing tree and a LARGE portion of those throws must be made from the pocket. This requires a massive portion of arm & core strength to deliver certain throws like that from a central standing position in the pocket. This is what analysts say all of the time when they talk about a QB being able to make all of the throws. For instance, an out route with a defender over the top is a typical route. To put a ball on the outside of your already out-breaking wide receiver down the field so that the over the top defender has to go much further to break that pass up, rather than trying to just cut underneath takes a massive portion of arm strength. Same with rocketing slants and post routes into their small windows. This was a huge difference between JJ and Sean. Sean could get the ball there but a large portion of those throws would be much slower, float, or might die. JJ's throws would get there and in a hurry, which is tougher to catch nonetheless (Because he lacks a lot of touch on the ball) but it's typically where it needs to be. Pro style QBs are larger because of necessity, also when running a pro-style offense with a pocket passer, the QB is more likely to take hits where they aren't moving. The notion that smaller QBs will succumb mid-season to hits like these is the general consensus and therefore coaches don't typically look for those types of QBs to play those roles, preferring to keep them on the move if they've got any kind of agility. This is why these QBs end up as DTs. The system in their HS is molded around them rather than plug and play. It's a rarity to find a DT QB with enormous size like Cam because most of the time, those QBs are hybrids that can be both DT and Pro-Style and therefore are the ultimate QBs. Basically Cam was the ultimate QB by that virtue. (See Big Ben Rothlesberger. )

[AUbritt 611]

This.... So much this...

Our recruiting has been somewhat scattered for the offensive side and style. It's one of those situations where we have DEFINITELY been very hit or miss with how recruits fit and whether or not they have use in the offense. The offense also has lost it's niche for what it wants to do. At a basic look at the Malzahn Wing-T, it want's to be a power run offense using leading H-Backs, though at the same time maintain just enough ability to pass to catch the defense slipping with a deep shot should they get caught underneath. Unfortunately the application and use of the recruits has not been the best. For one thing, the offense needs to take a more balanced approach by:

Actually recruiting talented and explosive tight ends rather than taking full backs and using them as H-Backs. Adding the TE-Wing formation can be a deadly asset, as well as having TEs play the H-Back and still be able to play attached to the LOS and in the slot.

Advantage: A Tight End can ALWAYS play H-Back and do the SAME exact thing that the H can do and then some. For one thing, they aren't fish out of water in the receiving game which allows you to maintain some unpredictability by still having all your talented route runners on the field despite being in run formations and NOT sacrifice your ability to block at the point of attack. Another advantage using a TE rather than a FB does is that they're hard to cover regardless of who is on them. If you've got one of these TEs that is blazing in speed, at least 6'4-6'5, strong enough to beat press cover LBs and Nickel backs, who are you going to cover them with? Our current H-Backs are less agile in space than running backs which LBs cover all day. By allowing them to use an LB to man cover an H-Back, the team automatically still has their other DBs free, rather than having to bracket and double team a match-up nightmare TE taking away 2 defenders, possibly pulling a safety down to leave the middle of the field uncovered. I just don't see the novelty in stockpiling fullbacks over greater TEs when one group is more versatile than the other. At least this way, if Gus wants to remain a somewhat 50/50 offense in terms of run-pass efficiency, he can do it correctly.

Bring back Nakeds.

An awkward title, but at the same time, we need naked bootlegs back. It may have just been me, but I don't think I saw us run this at all this season, or if we did it was scarce. This play and types like it are an absolute MUST! When the offense zone steps to the right and the QB fakes the handoff and rolls left, with the H-Back faking the slice/cruise block as he would normally to kick out the LB, it almost always draws a defense to the right literally leaving them "naked." The play also establishes multiple "levels" of which a QB can throw and makes the reads EXTREMELY easy by taking most of the run defense to the opposite side of the field. Bama makes ample use of this and it is almost ALWAYS a good gain. The check down to the TE is available should the 10 yd in be covered by an LB or safety, the 10 yard in is open if the LBs bite too hard on the TE, or if the safety tries to come down or gets caught "staring at the devil" then the WR's stop-and go route to the bootleg side is automatically a sure thing. Another hidden perk is that if we would just get a Dual Threat QB, then another option would be turning this into a sizable run gain as well. Either way, this play concept needs to make a triumphant return.

We need more XL WRs.

This one can go either way, because it is without question that Gus tends to break the bank recruiting versatile WRs in the size range of 6'1-6'2, which I do think is a good idea, but one thing that is notably missing from our offense (With the exclusion of Tony Stevens and Melvin Ray) is the jumbo WRs. I like 6'2 WRs, they can still be speedsters, but also physical forces in the run game, but there is no denying that having one or 2 and maybe 3 in the goal line, excluding the TE is a godsend and makes even the shakiest QB a force if he can buy time. And it's not like they're not out there. This year's class has had SEVERAL 6'3-6'6 WRs going to schools around us in the SEC (LSU got 3 of them in this one class, 6'4, 6'5 and 6'5) while it's clear they aren't even targets of ours. While they can at times be crap-shoots with their hit and miss tendencies in how they pan out, massive WRs are a HUGE advantage in the pass and run game. (See Ricky Seals Jones and his blocking ability and nastiness... Haven't forgotten what he did to one of our DBs) With that length matched up on a corner in the run game, it definitely provides another advantage if Gus spreads the formation out and attacks the AT and OFF tackle areas. Not going to harp on this one, but it's definitely something that needs to be done. The catch radius of these super-sized wides would make a HUGE difference in our redzone efficiency, especially when combined with TEs. I can only dream of a super-sized redzone formation. 6'4-6'6 recievers and TEs spread out, single back, and a DT QB=Supreme redzone deadliness.

More Varied Pre-Snap Motions

I know I'm not the only one who literally got our motion scheme down to a T. Almost immediately I narrowed down the motions to literally a science, whether it was starting with 2 backs and motioning one into the slot, having a H-Back split out and motioning them back to their original position, the dreaded jet sweep motion, ect. Basically, the motions that we use almost serve no purpose and don't benefit the Wing-T and it's nature of being unpredictable. Heck, we don't even use simple, move the H-Back to the opposite side of the OL to change the blocking strength and defensive assignment on the fly. There are LOADS most useful motions that could be used. If we took advantage of large WRs, we could motion one into the box (buzz) to give us another large body in the box to block or to drag a defender into a crowded space and then take advantage of the extra bodies to allow him to get open much easier. Needless to say, the creativity hasn't been there with the motion schemes and it just seems more like lifeless proceedings that are done before hand rather than actually pragmatic movements.

Great stuff... I have expressed multiple times this season how much the offense was hurt without TE's being involved. In fact this was the first time from 1970-2015 that we did not have a single completion to a TE. It likely goes back further but my data base on individual receiving only goes back to 1970. You mentioned Alabama but Georgia and Arkansas have done a great job utilizing their TE's in their offense. The naked boots you mentioned were so effective during the Dye, Tuberville and Bowden eras. Borges did an excellent job of stacking routes on roll outs to give the rolling QB multiple levels to throw from and because these routes were stacked, it made for an easier read for the QB. The stretch play we ran frequently against Memphis was a great change. We ran it a few times earlier in the year but scrapped it after it failed after a few times. My understanding was that Coach Grimes pushed for the return of this play. The only issue I had was we did not run a play-action off of it against Memphis, which would have given JJ an easy read or the option to run as you pointed out.

I also believe by having a TE and FB on the field more frequently would open up the play-calling options and would allow Malzahn to substitute less often, which would bring back the pace he often comments on. As you pointed out our substitution packages often dictate the play were are about to run. No doubt that Saban's defense knows our personnel and groupings like the back of his hand, which allows them to adjust accordingly. I've also noticed we don't motion or shift as much as we did when Gus first got here. This is why I am all for Gus bringing in other assistants on offense that can provide knew concepts to what Gus already prefers to run. If not staff changes, paying visits to other coaching staffs across the country to see what other spread or hurry up offenses are doing would be nice. Not sure if Gus brings in consultants but that would also be a grand concept as well. I believe Coach Malzahn is creative when it comes to offensive football but great coaches are always looking for methods and concepts to make their offense more diverse and not so each to read from year to year.

I thought the best assistant hire in the SEC in 2015 was Dan Enos of Arkansas. He took what Arkansas had alre3ady been doing and added some knew schemes to make it more diverse. They remained a strong run-offense but they turned their passing game into a deadly unit, especially with the use of 3 TE's . They were rarely predictable and very sound in their execution. Lane Kiffen might be a jerk but he has done some great things with the Alabama offense without taking away from their ability to be a powerful run-offense. He has done a splendid job of obtaining the most of his starting quarterbacks the past two years. Once again, he also utilizes his TE's and RB's in his pass-offense to make them difficult to defend from a skill-player standpoint.

Once again, thanks for the comments!

Good stuff!

[DAG 33,982]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate.

2 cents

The key to the whole story IMO.

As for Nick, interesting that if he had not gotten in trouble at UGA, he would have spent his college career at DB and nobody would have him in a discussion of this sort. Cam was a known QB quantity from HS and afterward.

So how many good DT college prospects are there? Most I see on the Rivals list are smaller guys...we had one at our HS this year who was shifty and fast....broke all the rushing records, a couple games in the 300 yard range plus punt returning and was a pretty good passer but because of his size, he will end up in FCS or Div II.

As I look at the list of top DT-QBs I note that most are not that big...about the size of SW for example....and not future Cam's who can bulldoze linebackers and DBs. Interesting that in general, the Pro Style guys are usually bigger. Why?

Anyway....seems that creating a competition between your QB prospects means nothing unless you have determined the offense you want to run.

Well it's really a tough issue to be argued, because admittedly, size doesn't always indicate ability to take hits or run the ball. Yes, when used properly it can make a QB a deadly asset in the run game, though at the same time there are QBs that are undersized who are slippery, shifty, and defenders bounce off of them when making hits. I've hit a few of these guys back at my time in J'ville and A&M and while they're small, they're stronger than they look. Muscle Size =/ muscle strength. Typically, there are some guys who just happen to be on the small end of the gene pool but their skill and strength can make up for that when running the ball.

But...

To answer your other question, typically pro style QBs are bigger because of the nature of the offense. The Pro-Style offense requires an extensive passing tree and a LARGE portion of those throws must be made from the pocket. This requires a massive portion of arm & core strength to deliver certain throws like that from a central standing position in the pocket. This is what analysts say all of the time when they talk about a QB being able to make all of the throws. For instance, an out route with a defender over the top is a typical route. To put a ball on the outside of your already out-breaking wide receiver down the field so that the over the top defender has to go much further to break that pass up, rather than trying to just cut underneath takes a massive portion of arm strength. Same with rocketing slants and post routes into their small windows. This was a huge difference between JJ and Sean. Sean could get the ball there but a large portion of those throws would be much slower, float, or might die. JJ's throws would get there and in a hurry, which is tougher to catch nonetheless (Because he lacks a lot of touch on the ball) but it's typically where it needs to be. Pro style QBs are larger because of necessity, also when running a pro-style offense with a pocket passer, the QB is more likely to take hits where they aren't moving. The notion that smaller QBs will succumb mid-season to hits like these is the general consensus and therefore coaches don't typically look for those types of QBs to play those roles, preferring to keep them on the move if they've got any kind of agility. This is why these QBs end up as DTs. The system in their HS is molded around them rather than plug and play. It's a rarity to find a DT QB with enormous size like Cam because most of the time, those QBs are hybrids that can be both DT and Pro-Style and therefore are the ultimate QBs. Basically Cam was the ultimate QB by that virtue. (See Big Ben Rothlesberger. )

Thank you, thank you & thank you.

[cooltigger21 0]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate. From that point, bring in the right coaches to evaluate and recruit for the type of players for the "base" offense. This would increase the probability of plug and play every year as players move on. In 2010, 2013 and 2015, we heard the team needed 3-4 games into the season to see where they were at. I would like to see most of that cleared up in spring and fall camps before Auburn begins the season. If this occurs again in 2016, Auburn could be in major trouble based on their opening schedule. Does he want to be a more pass-oriented offense? Fine but recruit and scheme for it. Does he want his base offense to be built around the read-option? Fine but recruit for it. Recruiting different styles of QB's forces some schematic change and adjustments carrying over into the start of the season.

2 cents

Exactly. It seemed that Gus wasn't sure of which way to go in the post Nick Marshall era last season. Hopefully he figures that out for 2016.

Well he's got two DT qbs coming in with this class and so far we have one for the next class. I think he's pretty much decided the direction he wants to go with the offense.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

If I remember right, Tulsa was #1 one year and close to #1 the second year in total offense in the country, Both of those QBs were more pro type than dual threat, To say that CN and NM was his best QBs is not actual fact. They were considered more successful due to the team success as a whole. Looking at the numbers I would think the two at Tulsa and maybe even the one at ASU were more successful at QB spot, but without the fanfare because of the team they played with. What would you say Stat. WDE

[AU64 10,122]

Just watched the highlight video of the 2010 season and I have to say that the success that year had more to do with Cam than it did with Gus's offense. He bailed out more "nothing" play calls and / or unsuccessful plays with his legs than I could count or keep track of.

Starting to think that for the most part, Gus has built his reputation as an offensive coach on the good fortune to have Cam and Nick running things for him AU.

I'm willing to withhold final judgment until after this season but I might be less likely to blame our shortcomings on our QB if things look more like 2015 than 2013.

[StatTiger 3,188]

If I remember right, Tulsa was #1 one year and close to #1 the second year in total offense in the country, Both of those QBs were more pro type than dual threat, To say that CN and NM was his best QBs is not actual fact. They were considered more successful due to the team success as a whole. Looking at the numbers I would think the two at Tulsa and maybe even the one at ASU were more successful at QB spot, but without the fanfare because of the team they played with. What would you say Stat. WDE

No doubt he had great passing numbers at Tulsa and Arkansas State. Those numbers were included in my initial post.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

Tulsa 2007 avg 540 yards per game Tulsa 2008 avg 568 yards per game Auburn 2010 avg 499 yards per game .

[AU64 10,122]

If I remember right, Tulsa was #1 one year and close to #1 the second year in total offense in the country, Both of those QBs were more pro type than dual threat, To say that CN and NM was his best QBs is not actual fact. They were considered more successful due to the team success as a whole. Looking at the numbers I would think the two at Tulsa and maybe even the one at ASU were more successful at QB spot, but without the fanfare because of the team they played with. What would you say Stat. WDE

No doubt he had great passing numbers at Tulsa and Arkansas State. Those numbers were included in my initial post.

Agree, you have to use the Tulsa numbers but they were playing in a league where winners generally scored in the upper 40s and 50s and losers often scored in the 30s and 40s and sometimes in the 50s. Basically no defense anywhere in the league. It was aerial circus and every team's stats were wild.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/cusa/2007-schedule.html this is 2007....if you go to 2008 the defenses are even worse and everyone was scoring more points with many winners scoring 65 to 70 points and losers still in the 30s and 40s.

Just saying....no matter which style QB was being used....the teams were running wild and the stats are pretty much meaningless....like SEC baseball about 2010 where excuse me swings could result in a home run.

[StatTiger 3,188]

Tulsa 2007 avg 540 yards per game Tulsa 2008 avg 568 yards per game Auburn 2010 avg 499 yards per game .

Yes they did. I included them in my initial post.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

Some times we make unfair excuse. Tulsa was playing with non P5 players against both non P5 teams and some P5 teams. I would say fair comparison with talent against talent Tulsa had the harder road. Not taking anything away from your information. You were exactly correct with all you posted. Just pointing out what Gus has emphasized many times . All his offenses are run first play action. It depends upon what the defense is giving. After 2010 most SEC defenses have become more versatile and it is become much harder to be successful unless you are good at both games. I continue to say that Gus would admit that play calling at crucial times was just as much to blame this year as mistakes by players.

[japantiger 4,051]

I guess I'm just reluctant to accept that it's the DTness itself that made offenses led by Cam and Nick so productive; Cam and Nick had something to do with it.

What if you put Bo Jackson in an offense other than the wishbone? Wouldn't you think he'd still produce monster rushing stats? I know it's not exactly the same, comparing QBs and RBs. I'm just trying to figure out a way to express my reservations about the conclusion that Gus needs a DT QB. Cam and Nick are pretty tough acts to follow, IMO.

Forget the QB's for a moment... how many WR's and TE's has Auburn recruited and developed from the HS level over the last 15 years? Auburn has two 1000-yard receivers in the history of the program. Auburn has had some very good receivers come through the program but nowhere close to the level of Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, LSU or even Alabama over the past two decades. Auburn has traditionally been known to be a RB school. Can we change that? Sure but it would take a completely different change in offensive philosophy. Malzahn's staff has struggled bringing in elite WR's into the program and one of the reasons is because Auburn doesn't have a great history for WR development.

There have been only 15 offenses in school history to average more than 400-yards per game.

Compare 2010, 2013 and 2014 to the other 12 teams and you have 491-yards and 39 PPG compared to 407-yards and 31 PPG.

Add into the mix the current coaching staff and where they have had success in player development on offense and leans towards OL and RB's more than the remaining skill players. This is another reason why I prefer a DT-QB operating Malzahn's offense as we see it today. I would prefer Baylor, Oklahoma and Oregon's offense but only for one primary reason. They have elected to define a specific offensive philosophy with the intent of recruiting for it year in and year out. This allows them to plug and play much easier than Auburn. One downfall I have seen to Malzahn's offense is that it takes 3-4 games into the season to define where we are at on offense, when a new QB is broken in. This is dangerous because it can result in early losses that could put the team behind. Malzahn has recruited pocket passers and DT-QB's since he has been here. This eventually leads to changes in offensive philosophy to make it work. If you change from Nick Marshall to Jeremy Johnson, it means changes across the board on offense, especially at the WR position. For now, we have clearly seen better results with a DT-QB, in place so why not stick with it?

Thanks STAT....you have this topic nailed. Your numbers support what is so painfully obvious at QB...DT QB's put so much extra pressure on a defense...it only stands to reason they would put up better numbers.

I love this particular point you are making here also. You have to stand for something...recruit and build around it...to the exclusion of all else and we currently do not. My boys were even laughing tonight watching Henry at AL. We just went over all the amazing things about Henry (as much as it pains me to praise an AL player) and how the AL offense is built....my boys said Malzahn would have probably made him the jet sweep back...we just seem to be completely rudderless and mostly clueless.

[auburntiger1987 759]

Yards only matter when they lead to points

[Tiger 8,823]

I think most important is how many PPG the opponents were giving up and how many pts Gus put on them. The difference will tell us the real story. Especially with the angle that I hadn't thought of before that AU64 said in regards to everyone's offensive stats in that conference were eye popping (we always see the "look at the competition" argument")

[Never2Yield 1,005]

Yards only matter when they lead to points

preferably TDs.

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

Yards only matter when they lead to points

preferably TDs.

Agreed, but

You gotta admit,

Safeties can be pretty cool too

[AUGoo 2,664]

I just hope Gus will choose a QB that can get us back to winning 9 or more games on regular basis. I am not so sure that JJ & SW are the answers for 2016. Time will tell and I hope that Gus will make the right decision with the QB position for 2016. It all starts with the QB that can run Gus' offense to as close to perfection as possible.

I would too but it would take more than that. I believe it is even more important to define the style of offense he wants to operate moving forward than the QB itself. I'm not sold that Malzahn can develop a sophisticated pass-offense on his own based on his current history. Thus far he has yet to recruit a HS QB and develop him into a consistent performer. I'm Not saying he can't, just pointing out that he hasn't at this point. I do believe he has helped develop and improve upon some of the QB's he has worked with but several were already at a solid stage in their development. It might require an OC change that could make that kind of change as well as bringing in someone to evaluate, recruit and develop WR's too. I believe Dameyune Craig could make for a solid QB coach but who would change the style of pass offense? I always thought Mark Richt did a great job of QB development and that primarily came from selecting specific QB's in recruitment that he thought would fit his style of offense. Malzahn has recruited both pocket passers and DT-QB's.

IMO, I wish Gus would simply decide on the style of offense he wants to operate. From that point, bring in the right coaches to evaluate and recruit for the type of players for the "base" offense. This would increase the probability of plug and play every year as players move on. In 2010, 2013 and 2015, we heard the team needed 3-4 games into the season to see where they were at. I would like to see most of that cleared up in spring and fall camps before Auburn begins the season. If this occurs again in 2016, Auburn could be in major trouble based on their opening schedule. Does he want to be a more pass-oriented offense? Fine but recruit and scheme for it. Does he want his base offense to be built around the read-option? Fine but recruit for it. Recruiting different styles of QB's forces some schematic change and adjustments carrying over into the start of the season.

2 cents

This.... So much this...

Our recruiting has been somewhat scattered for the offensive side and style. It's one of those situations where we have DEFINITELY been very hit or miss with how recruits fit and whether or not they have use in the offense. The offense also has lost it's niche for what it wants to do. At a basic look at the Malzahn Wing-T, it want's to be a power run offense using leading H-Backs, though at the same time maintain just enough ability to pass to catch the defense slipping with a deep shot should they get caught underneath. Unfortunately the application and use of the recruits has not been the best. For one thing, the offense needs to take a more balanced approach by:

Actually recruiting talented and explosive tight ends rather than taking full backs and using them as H-Backs. Adding the TE-Wing formation can be a deadly asset, as well as having TEs play the H-Back and still be able to play attached to the LOS and in the slot.

Advantage: A Tight End can ALWAYS play H-Back and do the SAME exact thing that the H can do and then some. For one thing, they aren't fish out of water in the receiving game which allows you to maintain some unpredictability by still having all your talented route runners on the field despite being in run formations and NOT sacrifice your ability to block at the point of attack. Another advantage using a TE rather than a FB does is that they're hard to cover regardless of who is on them. If you've got one of these TEs that is blazing in speed, at least 6'4-6'5, strong enough to beat press cover LBs and Nickel backs, who are you going to cover them with? Our current H-Backs are less agile in space than running backs which LBs cover all day. By allowing them to use an LB to man cover an H-Back, the team automatically still has their other DBs free, rather than having to bracket and double team a match-up nightmare TE taking away 2 defenders, possibly pulling a safety down to leave the middle of the field uncovered. I just don't see the novelty in stockpiling fullbacks over greater TEs when one group is more versatile than the other. At least this way, if Gus wants to remain a somewhat 50/50 offense in terms of run-pass efficiency, he can do it correctly.

Bring back Nakeds.

An awkward title, but at the same time, we need naked bootlegs back. It may have just been me, but I don't think I saw us run this at all this season, or if we did it was scarce. This play and types like it are an absolute MUST! When the offense zone steps to the right and the QB fakes the handoff and rolls left, with the H-Back faking the slice/cruise block as he would normally to kick out the LB, it almost always draws a defense to the right literally leaving them "naked." The play also establishes multiple "levels" of which a QB can throw and makes the reads EXTREMELY easy by taking most of the run defense to the opposite side of the field. Bama makes ample use of this and it is almost ALWAYS a good gain. The check down to the TE is available should the 10 yd in be covered by an LB or safety, the 10 yard in is open if the LBs bite too hard on the TE, or if the safety tries to come down or gets caught "staring at the devil" then the WR's stop-and go route to the bootleg side is automatically a sure thing. Another hidden perk is that if we would just get a Dual Threat QB, then another option would be turning this into a sizable run gain as well. Either way, this play concept needs to make a triumphant return.

We need more XL WRs.

This one can go either way, because it is without question that Gus tends to break the bank recruiting versatile WRs in the size range of 6'1-6'2, which I do think is a good idea, but one thing that is notably missing from our offense (With the exclusion of Tony Stevens and Melvin Ray) is the jumbo WRs. I like 6'2 WRs, they can still be speedsters, but also physical forces in the run game, but there is no denying that having one or 2 and maybe 3 in the goal line, excluding the TE is a godsend and makes even the shakiest QB a force if he can buy time. And it's not like they're not out there. This year's class has had SEVERAL 6'3-6'6 WRs going to schools around us in the SEC (LSU got 3 of them in this one class, 6'4, 6'5 and 6'5) while it's clear they aren't even targets of ours. While they can at times be crap-shoots with their hit and miss tendencies in how they pan out, massive WRs are a HUGE advantage in the pass and run game. (See Ricky Seals Jones and his blocking ability and nastiness... Haven't forgotten what he did to one of our DBs) With that length matched up on a corner in the run game, it definitely provides another advantage if Gus spreads the formation out and attacks the AT and OFF tackle areas. Not going to harp on this one, but it's definitely something that needs to be done. The catch radius of these super-sized wides would make a HUGE difference in our redzone efficiency, especially when combined with TEs. I can only dream of a super-sized redzone formation. 6'4-6'6 recievers and TEs spread out, single back, and a DT QB=Supreme redzone deadliness.

More Varied Pre-Snap Motions

I know I'm not the only one who literally got our motion scheme down to a T. Almost immediately I narrowed down the motions to literally a science, whether it was starting with 2 backs and motioning one into the slot, having a H-Back split out and motioning them back to their original position, the dreaded jet sweep motion, ect. Basically, the motions that we use almost serve no purpose and don't benefit the Wing-T and it's nature of being unpredictable. Heck, we don't even use simple, move the H-Back to the opposite side of the OL to change the blocking strength and defensive assignment on the fly. There are LOADS most useful motions that could be used. If we took advantage of large WRs, we could motion one into the box (buzz) to give us another large body in the box to block or to drag a defender into a crowded space and then take advantage of the extra bodies to allow him to get open much easier. Needless to say, the creativity hasn't been there with the motion schemes and it just seems more like lifeless proceedings that are done before hand rather than actually pragmatic movements.

[FoundationEagle 637]

In response to stat and flex regarding going after a certain type of player, we have several 6-3 WRs either committed or very high on our board, one of the nations best TEs, and are now recruiting solely DT qbs. I agree with all the analysis above and the suggestions laid out. It seems Gus has already made his move to go this exact route so he sees the same things. If he is allowed time to learn from his mistakes already made, I believe he will have this offense clicking on all cylinders again very soon.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Bring back Nakeds.

An awkward title, but at the same time, we need naked bootlegs back. It may have just been me, but I don't think I saw us run this at all this season, or if we did it was scarce. This play and types like it are an absolute MUST! When the offense zone steps to the right and the QB fakes the handoff and rolls left, with the H-Back faking the slice/cruise block as he would normally to kick out the LB, it almost always draws a defense to the right literally leaving them "naked." The play also establishes multiple "levels" of which a QB can throw and makes the reads EXTREMELY easy by taking most of the run defense to the opposite side of the field. Bama makes ample use of this and it is almost ALWAYS a good gain. The check down to the TE is available should the 10 yd in be covered by an LB or safety, the 10 yard in is open if the LBs bite too hard on the TE, or if the safety tries to come down or gets caught "staring at the devil" then the WR's stop-and go route to the bootleg side is automatically a sure thing. Another hidden perk is that if we would just get a Dual Threat QB, then another option would be turning this into a sizable run gain as well. Either way, this play concept needs to make a triumphant return.

I honestly can't believe we aren't using this more, especially with Craig as our co-OC. The Naked Bootleg was his bread and butter, in the red zone, when he was a QB.

[auburn4ever 1,266]

Sure, 2013 was really good, but even though we won the SEC, Gus didn't win the national championship. After all, isn't that what we're paying him millions to do. Not just to beat Alabama every few years.

[FoundationEagle 637]

Sure, 2013 was really good, but even though we won the SEC, Gus didn't win the national championship. After all, isn't that what we're paying him millions to do. Not just to beat Alabama every few years.

Good troll job

[StatTiger 3,188]

Sure, 2013 was really good, but even though we won the SEC, Gus didn't win the national championship. After all, isn't that what we're paying him millions to do. Not just to beat Alabama every few years.

Actually he is being paid millions to field very competitive teams and 2013 clearly meets that criteria. This is why there on bonuses within his contract should he win championships.