Females in Combat Arms

[caleb1633 1,418]

An article by a Marine 2ndLt has added more fuel to the controversy of whether women should be allowed in combat arms. Your thoughts?

http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fourteen-women-have-tried-and-failed-the-marines-infantry-officer-course-heres-why/2014/03/28/24a83ea0-b145-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html

[japantiger 4,052]

If the same standard is applied to both sexes, then no issue at all. Hell, shower time might be a blast.

And, I think her reco of having WM's do the same training and PT standards as men prior to the Basic Course is a good one.

Semper Fi.

[Tigermike 3,084]

Sharp lady. If the men can retake, women applicant's should be able to as well. But don't lower the standards.

[autigeremt 6,786]

I agree. Allow the to women to endure the exact same process and standard as the men. If they pass, they are in.

[cptau 169]

That lieutenant has already taken a very big chance by talking directly to the press. Not good at all.

Some of what she is saying is whining. Some is legitimate.

I think if they give men a chance to retake the infantry course, then the women should get that too.

She is saying that they Marines are too easy on the women early on in OCS training and then bump up the physical fitness standard in infantry officer basic? She could always train to the male standards at anytime.

If they raise the women's physical fitness standards in OCS to meet the men's standard,, then there would be very few women marine officers.

Some women Naval academy graduates also become marines. They train together with men midshipmen for 4 years (to lower physical fitness standards for the women). Has that helped any of the women academy graduates get through the infantry officer course?

The US Army has been training men and women together for 40 years too, but again to different standards.

If women can meet the physical standards for any job in the military, OK, but don't lower the standards to get a quota of women in a certain combat MOS. Keep in mind that if the standards are reduced for women to pass the course, then to be fair the men's standard must also be lowered.

[caleb1633 1,418]

I do feel I need to state a few facts to clear up misconceptions many people have in regards to the article:

1 - females do not receive the infantry officer MOS if they complete the course. They are there on an experimental basis to test whether women should be allowed in a combat arms Military Occupational Specialty (MOS). By attending IOC they are delaying their actual MOS school as much as 6 months.

2 - not all males get to retake the CET. Those allowed to retest are typically those who were in the top 10% of their class at The Basic School's (TBS) Basic Officer Course and reservists since there is a big need for platoon commanders in the reserves.

3 - Officer Candidates School (OCS), the first screening/training a Marine Officer (they are called candidates at OCS as they aren't commissioned) has a high attrition rate amongst females. Around 60-70% wash out of OCS. Males drop rate is on average about 33%. The course is either two six weeks sessions over two summers or one ten week session.

4 - at TBS females are integrated into male platoons and receive the same training as males do for the 6 month course duration. The only variance in their training is that the scores for the physical events is done differently.

5 - after TBS, those waiting to go to IOC go to what is called MAT Plt (Marines Awaiting Training). IOC only hosts four classes a year and you have to wait to go if there is still a class of officers still training. In MAT Plt the Marines PT everyday and are specifically trained to pass IOC, and more specifically the CET. Male and Female standards are the same in MAT Plt.

6 - no females have passed IOC yet. It is one of the most physically and mentally demanding courses in the military. 15 women have taken it, one passed the first day of training and was dropped a week later for stress fractures.

Some extra information to chew on.

[autigeremt 6,786]

I served with women in garrison and some of them could handle the rigors required of those who wear the CIB. I can't say anything about the forward line because they weren't allowed anywhere near where I was.

[cptau 169]

I do feel I need to state a few facts to clear up misconceptions many people have in regards to the article:

1 - females do not receive the infantry officer MOS if they complete the course. They are there on an experimental basis to test whether women should be allowed in a combat arms Military Occupational Specialty (MOS). By attending IOC they are delaying their actual MOS school as much as 6 months.

2 - not all males get to retake the CET. Those allowed to retest are typically those who were in the top 10% of their class at The Basic School's (TBS) Basic Officer Course and reservists since there is a big need for platoon commanders in the reserves.

3 - Officer Candidates School (OCS), the first screening/training a Marine Officer (they are called candidates at OCS as they aren't commissioned) has a high attrition rate amongst females. Around 60-70% wash out of OCS. Males drop rate is on average about 33%. The course is either two six weeks sessions over two summers or one ten week session.

4 - at TBS females are integrated into male platoons and receive the same training as males do for the 6 month course duration. The only variance in their training is that the scores for the physical events is done differently.

5 - after TBS, those waiting to go to IOC go to what is called MAT Plt (Marines Awaiting Training). IOC only hosts four classes a year and you have to wait to go if there is still a class of officers still training. In MAT Plt the Marines PT everyday and are specifically trained to pass IOC, and more specifically the CET. Male and Female standards are the same in MAT Plt.

6 - no females have passed IOC yet. It is one of the most physically and mentally demanding courses in the military. 15 women have taken it, one passed the first day of training and was dropped a week later for stress fractures.

Some extra information to chew on.

Women in other services attend training together in ROTC and the military academies. Same for army OCS.

If women or men get into MAT and train to a common PT standard there, they should know soon if they have a chance or not in IOC. If MAT goes badly a male or female officer should be advised to drop out and seek another MOS. The 10% retrain for those that barely fail IOC seems fair. The slots are too expensive to waste on failure.

Society is changing rapidly, I have not been a proponent of women in combat. I thought seeing women coming home from war disfigured or dead would shock the public, but Iraq and Afghanistan has proven that not to be the case. Women are being killed and wounded in service support and combat support roles. Many of them seem to be wounded or killed while riding in supply convoys or acting as guards at posts.

That said it will get worse if they start going on infantry combat missions.

[autigeremt 6,786]

I always worry of the capture/torture/rape factor....but they have to know the stakes if they invest themselves in taking on that role.

[cptau 169]

I always worry of the capture/torture/rape factor....but they have to know the stakes if they invest themselves in taking on that role.

Very true. I think that may have happen already in a couple of cases and the DoD kept it quiet for multiple reasons.

New correspondents get famous by covering wars and civil wars. Some go freelance and get into very dangerous areas to get stories. I'm not sure why they do it.

Women correspondent are doing same. A few have been captured by terrorist or militant groups and tortured and sexually assaulted. It has happened in Egypt, Libya, Somalia, etc...

[caleb1633 1,418]

Have any of you served in the infantry before?