While we are discussing evil, let us not forget the home grown version....

[AURaptor 1,125]

That's the sort of deranged association that can only come from the mind of a paranoid political fanatic.

Obama bringing up The Crusades and JIm Crow laws the very week a Jordanian pilot as seen on video being murdered by ISIS ?

We absolutely agree.

[homersapien 11,392]

The Foolish, Historically Illiterate, Incredible Response to Obama's Prayer Breakfast Speech

Using religion to brutalize other people is not a Muslim invention, nor is it foreign to the American experience.

TA-NEHISI COATES FEB 6 2015, 1:00 PM ET

Wikimedia

People who wonder why the president does not talk more about race would do well to examine the recent blow-up over his speech at the National Prayer Breakfast. Inveighing against the barbarism of ISIS, the president pointed out that it would be foolish to blame Islam, at large, for its atrocities. To make this point he noted that using religion to brutalize other people is neither a Muslim invention nor, in America, a foreign one:

Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.

The "all too often" could just as well be "almost always." There were a fair number of pretexts given for slavery and Jim Crow, but Christianity provided the moral justification. On the cusp of plunging his country into a war that would cost some 750,000 lives, Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens paused to offer some explanation. His justification was not secular. The Confederacy was to be:

[T]he first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society ... With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so.

It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another star in glory." The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws.

Stephens went on to argue that the "Christianization of the barbarous tribes of Africa" could only be accomplished through enslavement. And enslavement was not made possible through Robert's Rules of Order, but through a 250-year reign of mass torture, industrialized murder, and normalized rape—tactics which ISIS would find familiar. Its moral justification was not "because I said so," it was "Providence," "the curse against Canaan," "the Creator," "and Christianization." In just five years, 750,000 Americans died because of this peculiar mission of "Christianization." Many more died before, and many more died after. In his "Segregation Now" speech, George Wallace invokes God 27 times and calls the federal government opposing him "a system that is the very opposite of Christ."

Now, Christianity did not "cause" slavery, anymore than Christianity "caused" the civil-rights movement. The interest in power is almost always accompanied by the need to sanctify that power. That is what the Muslims terrorists in ISIS are seeking to do today, and that is what Christian enslavers and Christian terrorists did for the lion's share of American history.

That this relatively mild, and correct, point cannot be made without the comments being dubbed, "the most offensive I’ve ever heard a president make in my lifetime,” by a former Virginia governor gives you some sense of the limited tolerance for any honest conversation around racism in our politics. And it gives you something much more. My colleague Jim Fallows recently wrote about the need to, at once, infantilize and deify our military. Perhaps related to that is the need to infantilize and deify our history. Pointing out that Americans have done, on their own soil, in the name of their own God, something similar to what ISIS is doing now does not make ISIS any less barbaric, or any more correct. That is unless you view the entire discussion as a kind of religious one-upmanship, in which the goal is to prove that Christianity is "the awesomest."

Obama seemed to be going for something more—faith leavened by “some doubt.” If you are truly appalled by the brutality of ISIS, then a wise and essential step is understanding the lure of brutality, and recalling how easily your own society can be, and how often it has been, pulled over the brink.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Still not catching up in the comprehension dept, I see.

Cling tight to that security blanket, Linus.

[WarTim 3,456]

" Dude, Benghazi was a long time ago. But let's have a national discussion about The Crusades. " - @hale_razor

Sums it up perfectly. Don't bother this administration about nonsense from a few months ago ( then ),or years ago ( now ) , but lets do a direct side by side analogy of today's Islamic atrocities vs stuff that happened 100's of years ago !!

Yeah, "sums it up perfectly' - at least for the mentally deranged.

Looks like you are trying to horn in on Tim's non sequitur distributorship.

Another non sequitur comment? Another? What, did you get "phrases for the day" toilet paper? Let it go homey....let it go...

[WarTim 3,456]

The Foolish, Historically Illiterate, Incredible Response to Obama's Prayer Breakfast Speech

Using religion to brutalize other people is not a Muslim invention, nor is it foreign to the American experience.

TA-NEHISI COATES FEB 6 2015, 1:00 PM ET

Wikimedia

People who wonder why the president does not talk more about race would do well to examine the recent blow-up over his speech at the National Prayer Breakfast. Inveighing against the barbarism of ISIS, the president pointed out that it would be foolish to blame Islam, at large, for its atrocities. To make this point he noted that using religion to brutalize other people is neither a Muslim invention nor, in America, a foreign one:

Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.

The "all too often" could just as well be "almost always." There were a fair number of pretexts given for slavery and Jim Crow, but Christianity provided the moral justification. On the cusp of plunging his country into a war that would cost some 750,000 lives, Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens paused to offer some explanation. His justification was not secular. The Confederacy was to be:

[T]he first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society ... With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so.

It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another star in glory." The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws.

Stephens went on to argue that the "Christianization of the barbarous tribes of Africa" could only be accomplished through enslavement. And enslavement was not made possible through Robert's Rules of Order, but through a 250-year reign of mass torture, industrialized murder, and normalized rape—tactics which ISIS would find familiar. Its moral justification was not "because I said so," it was "Providence," "the curse against Canaan," "the Creator," "and Christianization." In just five years, 750,000 Americans died because of this peculiar mission of "Christianization." Many more died before, and many more died after. In his "Segregation Now" speech, George Wallace invokes God 27 times and calls the federal government opposing him "a system that is the very opposite of Christ."

Now, Christianity did not "cause" slavery, anymore than Christianity "caused" the civil-rights movement. The interest in power is almost always accompanied by the need to sanctify that power. That is what the Muslims terrorists in ISIS are seeking to do today, and that is what Christian enslavers and Christian terrorists did for the lion's share of American history.

That this relatively mild, and correct, point cannot be made without the comments being dubbed, "the most offensive I’ve ever heard a president make in my lifetime,” by a former Virginia governor gives you some sense of the limited tolerance for any honest conversation around racism in our politics. And it gives you something much more. My colleague Jim Fallows recently wrote about the need to, at once, infantilize and deify our military. Perhaps related to that is the need to infantilize and deify our history. Pointing out that Americans have done, on their own soil, in the name of their own God, something similar to what ISIS is doing now does not make ISIS any less barbaric, or any more correct. That is unless you view the entire discussion as a kind of religious one-upmanship, in which the goal is to prove that Christianity is "the awesomest."

Obama seemed to be going for something more—faith leavened by “some doubt.” If you are truly appalled by the brutality of ISIS, then a wise and essential step is understanding the lure of brutality, and recalling how easily your own society can be, and how often it has been, pulled over the brink.

People I have talked with this week said it sounds as if he is attempting to take up for the "religion" of his father and his fathers father. To me it is just the skewed view he was taught in over 20 plus years by Jeremiah wright.......

[AURaptor 1,125]

Name calling .this is how the left fights back & defends their dear & fluffy leader.

[Mims44 1,874]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

[homersapien 11,392]

" Dude, Benghazi was a long time ago. But let's have a national discussion about The Crusades. " - @hale_razor

Sums it up perfectly. Don't bother this administration about nonsense from a few months ago ( then ),or years ago ( now ) , but lets do a direct side by side analogy of today's Islamic atrocities vs stuff that happened 100's of years ago !!

Yeah, "sums it up perfectly' - at least for the mentally deranged.

Looks like you are trying to horn in on Tim's non sequitur distributorship.

Another non sequitur comment? Another? What, did you get "phrases for the day" toilet paper? Let it go homey....let it go...

Can't help it. It is what it is.

[Mims44 1,874]

Every time he wrote non sequitur I read it as a robotic screech in my head.

[homersapien 11,392]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

Really? So you really think study of our past has no value other than the utility of applying it to current problems?

I am curious as to exactly how we use the past to correct current problems unless it comes from the wisdom gained by knowing one's past.

That's (one) of the points of the topic.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Name calling .this is how the left fights back & defends their dear & fluffy leader.

Pointing out that one has just posted a non-sequitar is not name calling.

Now, calling you demented? That's name calling.

I never claimed it was, genius.

Still struggling w/ comprehension, and it's tricky friend ' context ', I see.

This is what my comment was in response to, since you need it spelled out for you.

The Foolish, Historically Illiterate, Incredible Response to Obama's Prayer Breakfast Speech

[Mims44 1,874]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

Really? So you really think study of our past has no value other than the utility of applying it to current problems?

I am curious as to exactly how we use the past to correct current problems unless it comes from the wisdom gained by knowing one's past.

That's (one) of the points of the topic.

It doesn't help if it doesn't advance thought.

My post was directed at the back and forth of; ISIS are barbarians, but what about the crusades? Then others come to defend the actions of their Europid ancestors.... and the circle continues.

The "but what about" part provides no insight to a possible solution, and if anything deviates the topic from reaching a logical conclusion.

If Obama had some esoteric insight into how the crusades could have been avoided and then applied that logic to a solution for today's problem, then that would be a boon. But the circular nature of recalling the past for no purpose other than to get people off topic over and over again is of no help at all.

He might as well have stood up and said "Oranges are the color orange, so why is bananas not the color banana?"

[AURaptor 1,125]

He might as well have stood up and said "Oranges are the color orange, so why is bananas not the color banana?"

Well, it is a valid point.

[WarTim 3,456]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

Really? So you really think study of our past has no value other than the utility of applying it to current problems?

I am curious as to exactly how we use the past to correct current problems unless it comes from the wisdom gained by knowing one's past.

That's (one) of the points of the topic.

It doesn't help if it doesn't advance thought.

My post was directed at the back and forth of; ISIS are barbarians, but what about the crusades? Then others come to defend the actions of their Europid ancestors.... and the circle continues.

The "but what about" part provides no insight to a possible solution, and if anything deviates the topic from reaching a logical conclusion.

If Obama had some esoteric insight into how the crusades could have been avoided and then applied that logic to a solution for today's problem, then that would be a boon. But the circular nature of recalling the past for no purpose other than to get people off topic over and over again is of no help at all.

He might as well have stood up and said "Oranges are the color orange, so why is bananas not the color banana?"

Well stated. Thanks

[icanthearyou 4,463]

I have to agree with Mims, the Mims, Mimsy (he needs a nickname). Anyway, you can not throw something like that out there without any context. It's the same thing as people declaring it is the Nazis all over again.

[Mims44 1,874]

If I'm given a nickname will you all then allow me to post topics? lol

[icanthearyou 4,463]

If I'm given a nickname will you all then allow me to post topics? lol

NO MImsy!

[AURaptor 1,125]

Any variation of Mimsy would be suitable, imo.

[homersapien 11,392]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

Really? So you really think study of our past has no value other than the utility of applying it to current problems?

I am curious as to exactly how we use the past to correct current problems unless it comes from the wisdom gained by knowing one's past.

That's (one) of the points of the topic.

It doesn't help if it doesn't advance thought.

My post was directed at the back and forth of; ISIS are barbarians, but what about the crusades? Then others come to defend the actions of their Europid ancestors.... and the circle continues.

The "but what about" part provides no insight to a possible solution, and if anything deviates the topic from reaching a logical conclusion.

If Obama had some esoteric insight into how the crusades could have been avoided and then applied that logic to a solution for today's problem, then that would be a boon. But the circular nature of recalling the past for no purpose other than to get people off topic over and over again is of no help at all.

He might as well have stood up and said "Oranges are the color orange, so why is bananas not the color banana?"

I think you are missing the point entirely.

It's not about throwing up examples of similar behavior to attenuate the barbaric behavior of others.

It's about fostering a little humility regarding xenophobic arguments about religion and morality.

If one approaches a different culture with the assumption they are simply not like us, one is operating from a very limited and false reality. That is not the way to arrive at lasting solutions to the problem.

[homersapien 11,392]

I have to agree with Mims, the Mims, Mimsy (he needs a nickname). Anyway, you can not throw something like that out there without any context. It's the same thing as people declaring it is the Nazis all over again.

I assumed Mims was female. Seemed too reasonable to be male.

[AURaptor 1,125]

The Foolish ( ad hominem ) Historically Illiterate ( ad hominem ) , Incredible Response ... hyperbole, glossing over the fact that Obama was the one who was incredible in his side by side comparison and equivocating of Christianity 100's of years ago as being anywhere remotely relevant to the horrors of Islam done TODAY.

home, you can feign ignorance on this all day long, but it's not changing anything.

Obama was utterly and completely out of line here.

You siding w/ him, giving him cover, how ever you want to paint it, only puts you in the same boat.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Bingo!!

[Mims44 1,874]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

Really? So you really think study of our past has no value other than the utility of applying it to current problems?

I am curious as to exactly how we use the past to correct current problems unless it comes from the wisdom gained by knowing one's past.

That's (one) of the points of the topic.

It doesn't help if it doesn't advance thought.

My post was directed at the back and forth of; ISIS are barbarians, but what about the crusades? Then others come to defend the actions of their Europid ancestors.... and the circle continues.

The "but what about" part provides no insight to a possible solution, and if anything deviates the topic from reaching a logical conclusion.

If Obama had some esoteric insight into how the crusades could have been avoided and then applied that logic to a solution for today's problem, then that would be a boon. But the circular nature of recalling the past for no purpose other than to get people off topic over and over again is of no help at all.

He might as well have stood up and said "Oranges are the color orange, so why is bananas not the color banana?"

I think you are missing the point entirely.

It's not about throwing up examples of similar behavior to attenuate the barbaric behavior of others.

It's about fostering a little humility regarding xenophobic arguments about religion and morality.

If one approaches a different culture with the assumption they are simply not like us, one is operating from a very limited and false reality. That is not the way to arrive at lasting solutions to the problem.

Humility is unneeded in problem solving.

I understand the teaching of the day goes against my own thoughts, but I do not believe any society, culture, religion has an inherent right to exist.

Identify the problem, identify possible solutions, then solve the problem.

Bringing up past instances serves no purpose unless it is helping with one of those three.

(no real purpose that I see, unless there is a large faction claiming that Arabic people are the only ones that have ever done anything wrong. In which case, sure those people should be educated.)

Could be ignorant to it though as Coles pointed out to me before, I tend to think people are better than they are. fail to see racism, sexism, ageism, etc on a pretty consistent basis.

[homersapien 11,392]

The Foolish ( ad hominem ) Historically Illiterate ( ad hominem ) , Incredible Response ... hyperbole, glossing over the fact that Obama was the one who was incredible in his side by side comparison and equivocating of Christianity 100's of years ago as being anywhere remotely relevant to the horrors of Islam done TODAY.

home, you can feign ignorance on this all day long, but it's not changing anything.

Obama was utterly and completely out of line here.

You siding w/ him, giving him cover, how ever you want to paint it, only puts you in the same boat.

BS. You don't get what he is saying to begin with. You don't even try because you are so obsessed with him.

The responses to his comments are the ones that are totally out of line. The author got is exactly right.

And pointing out that ones response is foolish and historically inaccurate is not a ad hominem attack. It's an attack on the response.

If you make a foolish and inaccurate response then take responsibility for it.

[homersapien 11,392]

So far off the original topic..... at least what I thought was the original topic.

Bad s*** has happened against everyone and by everyone throughout mans time on this earth. bringing up the past for any reason other than to help figure out how to correct the problems of the present is an exercise in ruinous thought.

The problems that must be answered lie in the now, and not in yesterday's failures.

Really? So you really think study of our past has no value other than the utility of applying it to current problems?

I am curious as to exactly how we use the past to correct current problems unless it comes from the wisdom gained by knowing one's past.

That's (one) of the points of the topic.

It doesn't help if it doesn't advance thought.

My post was directed at the back and forth of; ISIS are barbarians, but what about the crusades? Then others come to defend the actions of their Europid ancestors.... and the circle continues.

The "but what about" part provides no insight to a possible solution, and if anything deviates the topic from reaching a logical conclusion.

If Obama had some esoteric insight into how the crusades could have been avoided and then applied that logic to a solution for today's problem, then that would be a boon. But the circular nature of recalling the past for no purpose other than to get people off topic over and over again is of no help at all.

He might as well have stood up and said "Oranges are the color orange, so why is bananas not the color banana?"

I think you are missing the point entirely.

It's not about throwing up examples of similar behavior to attenuate the barbaric behavior of others.

It's about fostering a little humility regarding xenophobic arguments about religion and morality.

If one approaches a different culture with the assumption they are simply not like us, one is operating from a very limited and false reality. That is not the way to arrive at lasting solutions to the problem.

Humility is unneeded in problem solving.

I understand the teaching of the day goes against my own thoughts, but I do not believe any society, culture, religion has an inherent right to exist.

Identify the problem, identify possible solutions, then solve the problem.

Bringing up past instances serves no purpose unless it is helping with one of those three.

(no real purpose that I see, unless there is a large faction claiming that Arabic people are the only ones that have ever done anything wrong. In which case, sure those people should be educated.)

Could be ignorant to it though as Coles pointed out to me before, I tend to think people are better than they are. fail to see racism, sexism, ageism, etc on a pretty consistent basis.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree about the value of history. I think it informs one's self concept as well as world view.