Indiana backlash grows ahead of Final Four

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Any liberals for religious freedom?

...The whole point of freedom of religion is that it protects an extraordinary gamut of differing, frequently conflicting cosmologies, spiritual disciplines, and moral codes. They may include refusing to fight in defense of the nation, rejecting certain foodstuffs or medical treatments, discouraging young people from secondary or higher education, honoring celibacy or condemning a variety of sexual practices, sacrificing animals, drinking alcohol, or ingesting hallucinogens for ritual purposes, prescribing certain head coverings or hairstyles despite school or occupational rules, insisting on distinct roles for men and women, withdrawing from friends and family for lives of silence and seclusion, marching in prayer through neighborhoods on holy days, preaching on street corners or otherwise trying to convert others to these persuasions.

A great many of these beliefs and practices I disagree with. Some I deplore. Religious freedom means I live with the fundamentalists who describe the pope as anti-Christ and my kind as hell-bound—and with the black nationalist sects who consider me a white devil. Religious freedom means that I don’t have to send my children to the state schools if I choose not to nor does my Darwin-phobic neighbor. It also means state schools or state events or state laws should not force people to participate in religious rituals or practices contrary to their consciences.

Religious freedom means that I may very well want to question, critique, refute, moderate or otherwise alter religious beliefs and practices that I find irrational or unhealthy or dehumanizing or, yes, bigoted; but knowing how deeply rooted and sincerely held these convictions are, and how much about the universe remains in fact mysterious, and how much about my own perceptions of reality could in fact be mistaken, and how much religions do in fact evolve over time, I accommodate myself in the meantime to peaceful coexistence and thoughtful engagement. In particular I refuse to coerce religiously sincere people into personal actions that violate their conscience. And I refuse to dismiss their resistance to such coercion as nothing but bigotry...

...All my life liberals took the lead in defending and enlarging freedom of religion. Now they seem to have shrunk into silence, indifference, or, worse, disparagement. Contrary examples anyone?

https://www.commonwe...ligious-freedom

[homersapien 11,386]

People of good will on both sides of this marriage issue need to push their voices to the forefront and drown out the crazies on either end. I don't know why we've bought the lie in this country that we either have to agree on everything or grasp the reins of power and punish all dissenters, but it needs to stop. It's neither a truly liberal, nor a historical conservative value to hold.

I would agree if you could show me a logical place to draw the line. Otherwise, what we are dealing with is the basic principle of separation of church and state.

Of course, we already violate the principle in ways that just don't seem worth fighting over, such as "In God We Trust" and the use of prayer as preludes to government functions. Maybe this will wind up like that. Maybe certain religious-based discrimination will be seen as legally acceptable or just not worth fighting over.

But if so, it will be a loss for those of us who feel a completely secular state is a requirement for a truly free and diverse country. Such a principle should not yield even to majority power.

I've already shown you the logical place. But since you want capitulation and not compromise you refuse to accept it.

Let me spell it out again with three options for the line, two of which won't work.

1. Gay marriage is legal. No business owner can decline to be part of the ceremony regardless of religious or conscience objections. This goes even for people who have to attend and be there through the whole thing.

2. Gay marriage is illegal. Since it's not a legal ceremony anyway, it's largely moot as to whether someone can be compelled to take part in it.

3. Gay marriage is legal. In general, business owners cannot refuse to do business with gay people. There are no religious objections to serving gay people a burger. Heck, there aren't even any to providing housing, or medicine, or inheritance rights. But in situations where a business owner is being asked to use their expressions, artistic talents, and time to materially participate in event they have religious objections to (such as a wedding), they can decline.

The first two don't work. They grant all of the power and rights to one side while trampling on the other completely. The third one however is workable and logical. Both sides have rights. Both sides retain their rights, including the right to be left alone. It's a compromise. Is it perfect? No. Compromise never is. But it's essential to a democracy such as ours.

Excuse me, but I am not asking for "capitulation".

I am making an argument for the principle of secular laws which respect the equality of everyone regardless of race, creed, religion or sexuality.

Like I said, this to me is not an issue worth fighting for and I think those in the gay community are making a terrible mistake by doing so. This anti gay marriage attitude will eventually burn out as gay marriage becomes more accepted and normal. There's no reason to pick a fight over such a thing by bringing discrimination lawsuits at this point. In fact, it's counterproductive.

However - and this is important - the elevation of religious discretion in opposition to civil rights laws evidenced by these state laws is a different matter. These laws, in the abstract, are worthy of serious opposition.

In fact, that's one of the problems with gays bringing the lawsuits in the first place. It sparked such laws.

As far as a "reasonable" solution is concerned, the most pragmatic one would have been to simply throw the lawsuits out. (Not sure on what legal basis, but if it were up to me, I'd find one.)

If you want to find a reason to support homosexual rights, find one that is more meaningful than servicing a wedding.

But having said that, I oppose laws that allow for religion as an excuse for discrimination, on the basis of principle.

Maybe that sounds like I "want capitulation" to you, but I prefer to think of it as standing for principle.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Religious rights are civil rights. They are civil rights every bit as much as voting rights and rights regarding racial or sexual discrimination. Or rights regarding discrimination and sexual orientation.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

It isn't snarky, it is the truth.

No, it's s*** you made up. Wait, actually it's s*** you cribbed from other malcontents on the web. I saw the same black helicopter theory in the comments section of the story last night.

Sorry, but I do not buy that these people have zero idea about social media, the positives and the negatives, how it is used to move news, and how it can affect business. Especially considering they previously tried a Facebook page for the business. So yes, if they didn't know the potential then I am laughing at their business sense. There is a reason entire chapters of textbooks and lectures in marketing courses, even entire classes, are dedicated to the aspects of social media.

Sorry, I don't accept elaborate nonsensical fantasies cooked up by people who cannot fathom than not everyone is as culturally or technologically savvy as they. Occam's Razor killed this goofy tale in the womb.

Your right, drag is the wrong word. Submitted would be correct. Nobody held them at gunpoint and forced them to do it. They did the interview and agreed to it's use. Maybe things have changed, it has been a very long time, but when I was interviewed for a news story I had to sign a release giving them permission to use my interview. I do not buy that they were unaware of the topic, or that they were unaware of the controversy that it is causing. And yes they were targeted for this, and yes the reporter was tipped off about them I have no doubts, course Marino does to the daily caller on that question what the pizza place could of done to Marino. Not answered the inquiry.

This town is less than 100 miles from the Chicago suburbs, might even be as few as 50. They receive multiple news stations out of Chicago. Having lived there at the time there is no way you did not hear, see, or get information on the entire CFA bit that occurred in Chicago. That perfectly showed the negatives that a business can see due to stands on SSM, and it showed the positive influences that a stand on SSM can have.

So no, I am not buying the naive simpleton bit. Maybe it was a play by them, maybe it wasn't.

It wasn't. You have zero evidence outside of liberal fever dreams that it was anything else.

People are a**holes and idiots,

Indeed.

Of course I didn't make up the concept of use of social media in business.

The people used Facebook for their business. They have experience with the culture and technology.

You have zero proof they are naive innocents also and not gaming the system when they got the opportunity. C'mon, you really don't think I am capable of having that thought on my own. I would have to steal the idea that someone would potentially game the system from others. Especially after witnessing first hand the positives and negatives of it.

We are both capable of it.

Grandparents have Facebook pages. It's not that hard to click a few buttons and have one for your restaurant.

I don't have to prove innocence. I just use the principles of Occam's Razor and understand that the simplest explanation is generally the right one rather than coming up with Machiavellian schemes to get rich quick. Show me something other than, "I detest their views and detest that they somehow managed to have some good come out of this nightmare so it must have been their plan all along."

The Scooby Doo writers told better tales.

Looking back. Nowhere have I definitively said that is what she is doing btw. I said another factor could be. She is playing it up now though, or at least appears to be in interviews.

My mother is in her mid 60's. Doesn't have a Facebook or a twitter, never used them and doesn't want to, but is still very aware of the dangers, pitfalls, and consequences of its uses and the way news spreads through them and the web. So it isn't like it is some difficult concept that is hidden from the world. In fact it is something that is discussed at her church, especially with the youth groups. She hears about it from parents with teenagers at her church.

You should go back and look at the thread involving the people that didn't want to allow a ceremony at their... what was it a ranch? or country resort?... can't remember the exact location and then tell me what my views on the subject are.

I have no issue with her belief. If she doesn't want to serve pizza to a wedding ceremony due to religious beliefs on marriage then that is fine with me. But, if she knows I'm sleeping with my neighbors wife and she is coming over on Thursdays nights when her husband is working the night shift. Then she better shoot me down also when I want them to cater a Thurs. night game party on the religious aspect of adultery. If not, then the whole religion/sanctity argument is out the window with me and it is just simple bigotry.

I'm also laughing at this person btw due to their business sense. Teacher/coach using twitter to say hey lets burn the place to the ground cause of their views. Probably will lose their job and have a difficult time getting another one due to it. I guess you could argue that the teacher was just hitting a few buttons and was not culturally or technologically informed, but I wouldn't buy that with them either.

http://www.abc57.com/story/28696535/high-school-coach-suspended-after-tweet-about-pizzeria

[homersapien 11,386]

Religious rights are civil rights. They are civil rights every bit as much as voting rights and rights regarding racial or sexual discrimination. Or rights regarding discrimination and sexual orientation.

No one should have a civil or religious right to discriminate.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Religious rights are civil rights. They are civil rights every bit as much as voting rights and rights regarding racial or sexual discrimination. Or rights regarding discrimination and sexual orientation.

No one should have a civil or religious right to discriminate.

They shouldn't be able to discriminate against people just for existing. A Christian shouldn't be able to refuse to sell someone a burger, or rent them a room, or make them a birthday cake because they are gay. A gay-owned restaurant shouldn't be able to refuse to serve lunch to the local conservative Baptist minister because of his beliefs about marriage. No one should be able to do any of those things just because a person is black, white, Hispanic, female, gay or straight.

But a gun control advocate shouldn't have to provide services for a pro-2nd Amendment rally. A black owned catering business shouldn't have to cater a gathering of people with white supremacist sympathies. Hell, a gay owner of a bakery shouldn't have to provide baked goods for a pro-traditional marriage meeting.

It's not the same kind of thing. Allowing people to have the space for conscience is a reasonable thing to do.

[homersapien 11,386]

http://www.huffingto..._b_6950026.html

Misusing Religious Freedom as a Weapon of Mass Discrimination

Rev. Susan Russell

Episcopal priest and activist from Pasadena, Calif.

Religious discrimination is a real thing.

History -- both modern and ancient -- is tragically full of examples of times and places where religious discrimination has been the source of persecution, death and destruction. The perversion of religion into a weapon of mass destruction is antithetical to the core beliefs of all the world's great religions. And yet, none of those religions have escaped the sad reality that human beings -- given the power to do so -- will use God as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings.

Our forefathers knew that. And they brought that knowledge -- that wisdom -- into our Bill of Rights with a First Amendment that begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The First Amendment both prevents the government of the United States from privileging one religion over another and protects each and every one of us -- as American citizens -- to believe whatever we choose -- or choose not -- to believe about what God thinks, approves of or blesses.

It is what protects our democracy from becoming a theocracy. And, as we watch with sadness and horror the nightly news stories of religious wars and sectarian violence, this guarantee of religious freedom is something Americans of all religions -- and no religion -- should rejoice and be glad in.

What that guarantee of religious freedom is not is something to be distorted and exploited to further a homophobic agenda of legislated discrimination against LGBT people. But that's exactly what happened today when Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the so-called "religious freedom" bill into lawduring a private ceremony in his Statehouse office.

Officially entitled the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" this bill will allow individuals and businesses in the state to deny services to LGBT people on "religious liberty" grounds -- doing nothing to restore freedom and everything to bolster bigotry. It is the first of many proposed measures pending in statehouses around the country - all with the intent of allowing business owners and individuals to discriminate against LGBT people on religious grounds.

It is a dangerous and detrimental piece of legislation -- not only for the LGBT Americans who are its direct target. It opens the door for discrimination, inequality and prejudice to nearly every citizen of every state, undermining the foundational American value of equal protection. It is nothing less than an orchestrated backlash against equal protection for LGBT citizens and the flagrant distortion of the ideal of religious freedom into a vehicle for religion based bigotry.

Bottom line: The First Amendment protects your right as an American to the free exercise of your religion. It does not protect your right to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against other Americans.

And watching the tragic consequences of genuine religious discrimination on the nightly news makes it all the more urgent that we stand together and speak against this and other pending legislation -- and challenge those who are supporting it.

Because religious discrimination is a real thing. And this blatant effort to exploit it in order to attack LGBT citizens is a reprehensible thing.

Let the boycotts begin.

[Mims44 1,872]

http://www.huffingto..._b_6950026.html

Misusing Religious Freedom as a Weapon of Mass Discrimination

Rev. Susan Russell

Episcopal priest and activist from Pasadena, Calif.

Religious discrimination is a real thing.

History -- both modern and ancient -- is tragically full of examples of times and places where religious discrimination has been the source of persecution, death and destruction. The perversion of religion into a weapon of mass destruction is antithetical to the core beliefs of all the world's great religions. And yet, none of those religions have escaped the sad reality that human beings -- given the power to do so -- will use God as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings.

Our forefathers knew that. And they brought that knowledge -- that wisdom -- into our Bill of Rights with a First Amendment that begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."(Exercising might be not baking a cake of two dudes going at it, or a myriad of other things that their beliefs tell them are wrong, with the literal hundreds of religions out there all with their own little rules to make them "unique" free exercise could be tons of annoying discriminating things)

The First Amendment both prevents the government of the United States from privileging one religion over another and protects each and every one of us -- as American citizens -- to believe whatever we choose -- or choose not -- to believe about what God thinks, approves of or blesses.

It is what protects our democracy from becoming a theocracy. And, as we watch with sadness and horror the nightly news stories of religious wars and sectarian violence, this guarantee of religious freedom is something Americans of all religions -- and no religion -- should rejoice and be glad in.

What that guarantee of religious freedom is not is something to be distorted and exploited to further a homophobic agenda of legislated discrimination against LGBT people. But that's exactly what happened today when Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the so-called "religious freedom" bill into lawduring a private ceremony in his Statehouse office.

Officially entitled the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" this bill will allow individuals and businesses in the state to deny services to LGBT people on "religious liberty" grounds -- doing nothing to restore freedom and everything to bolster bigotry. It is the first of many proposed measures pending in statehouses around the country - all with the intent of allowing business owners and individuals to discriminate against LGBT people on religious grounds.

It is a dangerous and detrimental piece of legislation -- not only for the LGBT Americans who are its direct target. It opens the door for discrimination, inequality and prejudice to nearly every citizen of every state, undermining the foundational American value of equal protection. It is nothing less than an orchestrated backlash against equal protection for LGBT citizens and the flagrant distortion of the ideal of religious freedom into a vehicle for religion based bigotry.

Bottom line: The First Amendment protects your right as an American to the free exercise of your religion. It does not protect your right to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against other Americans.

And watching the tragic consequences of genuine religious discrimination on the nightly news makes it all the more urgent that we stand together and speak against this and other pending legislation -- and challenge those who are supporting it.

Because religious discrimination is a real thing (this is what religion is all about, and we always allow it.. whats different now?). And this blatant effort to exploit it in order to attack LGBT citizens is a reprehensible thing.

Let the boycotts begin.

People dive way to deep into s*** that is so simple.

This whole matter is beyond stupid, why do you want to force someone to cater to your whims if they hate you anyway?

I was going to go on, but all my mind comes up with is stupid, idiotic, dumb, roll-tiders, etc...

"I can't be the clown at the birthday party, I don't like you right handed people"

"well, **** you then, I'm calling the POlice"

[cooltigger21 0]

This guy gets it. He's gay and has a partner but thinks that the people bitching about this are hurting rather than helping their cause. http://chicksontheright.com/blog/item/28127-this-guy-gets-it-so-many-lgbt-folks-could-learn-about-decency-and-common-sense-from-him

[autigeremt 6,642]

Religious rights are civil rights. They are civil rights every bit as much as voting rights and rights regarding racial or sexual discrimination. Or rights regarding discrimination and sexual orientation.

No one should have a civil or religious right to discriminate.

The government does it all the time. You ready to go after them?

[autigeremt 6,642]

Any liberals for religious freedom?

...The whole point of freedom of religion is that it protects an extraordinary gamut of differing, frequently conflicting cosmologies, spiritual disciplines, and moral codes. They may include refusing to fight in defense of the nation, rejecting certain foodstuffs or medical treatments, discouraging young people from secondary or higher education, honoring celibacy or condemning a variety of sexual practices, sacrificing animals, drinking alcohol, or ingesting hallucinogens for ritual purposes, prescribing certain head coverings or hairstyles despite school or occupational rules, insisting on distinct roles for men and women, withdrawing from friends and family for lives of silence and seclusion, marching in prayer through neighborhoods on holy days, preaching on street corners or otherwise trying to convert others to these persuasions.

A great many of these beliefs and practices I disagree with. Some I deplore. Religious freedom means I live with the fundamentalists who describe the pope as anti-Christ and my kind as hell-bound—and with the black nationalist sects who consider me a white devil. Religious freedom means that I don’t have to send my children to the state schools if I choose not to nor does my Darwin-phobic neighbor. It also means state schools or state events or state laws should not force people to participate in religious rituals or practices contrary to their consciences.

Religious freedom means that I may very well want to question, critique, refute, moderate or otherwise alter religious beliefs and practices that I find irrational or unhealthy or dehumanizing or, yes, bigoted; but knowing how deeply rooted and sincerely held these convictions are, and how much about the universe remains in fact mysterious, and how much about my own perceptions of reality could in fact be mistaken, and how much religions do in fact evolve over time, I accommodate myself in the meantime to peaceful coexistence and thoughtful engagement. In particular I refuse to coerce religiously sincere people into personal actions that violate their conscience. And I refuse to dismiss their resistance to such coercion as nothing but bigotry...

...All my life liberals took the lead in defending and enlarging freedom of religion. Now they seem to have shrunk into silence, indifference, or, worse, disparagement. Contrary examples anyone?

https://www.commonwe...ligious-freedom

Liberals detest the COTUS.....unless they can use it to bury someone or to get something they want or for being a stress on O2 levels.

[homersapien 11,386]

Religious rights are civil rights. They are civil rights every bit as much as voting rights and rights regarding racial or sexual discrimination. Or rights regarding discrimination and sexual orientation.

No one should have a civil or religious right to discriminate.

The government does it all the time. You ready to go after them?

I don't know. Provide me your example and I'll consider it.

[homersapien 11,386]

http://www.huffingto..._b_6950026.html

Misusing Religious Freedom as a Weapon of Mass Discrimination

Rev. Susan Russell

Episcopal priest and activist from Pasadena, Calif.

Religious discrimination is a real thing.

History -- both modern and ancient -- is tragically full of examples of times and places where religious discrimination has been the source of persecution, death and destruction. The perversion of religion into a weapon of mass destruction is antithetical to the core beliefs of all the world's great religions. And yet, none of those religions have escaped the sad reality that human beings -- given the power to do so -- will use God as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings.

Our forefathers knew that. And they brought that knowledge -- that wisdom -- into our Bill of Rights with a First Amendment that begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."(Exercising might be not baking a cake of two dudes going at it, or a myriad of other things that their beliefs tell them are wrong, with the literal hundreds of religions out there all with their own little rules to make them "unique" free exercise could be tons of annoying discriminating things)

The First Amendment both prevents the government of the United States from privileging one religion over another and protects each and every one of us -- as American citizens -- to believe whatever we choose -- or choose not -- to believe about what God thinks, approves of or blesses.

It is what protects our democracy from becoming a theocracy. And, as we watch with sadness and horror the nightly news stories of religious wars and sectarian violence, this guarantee of religious freedom is something Americans of all religions -- and no religion -- should rejoice and be glad in.

What that guarantee of religious freedom is not is something to be distorted and exploited to further a homophobic agenda of legislated discrimination against LGBT people. But that's exactly what happened today when Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the so-called "religious freedom" bill into lawduring a private ceremony in his Statehouse office.

Officially entitled the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" this bill will allow individuals and businesses in the state to deny services to LGBT people on "religious liberty" grounds -- doing nothing to restore freedom and everything to bolster bigotry. It is the first of many proposed measures pending in statehouses around the country - all with the intent of allowing business owners and individuals to discriminate against LGBT people on religious grounds.

It is a dangerous and detrimental piece of legislation -- not only for the LGBT Americans who are its direct target. It opens the door for discrimination, inequality and prejudice to nearly every citizen of every state, undermining the foundational American value of equal protection. It is nothing less than an orchestrated backlash against equal protection for LGBT citizens and the flagrant distortion of the ideal of religious freedom into a vehicle for religion based bigotry.

Bottom line: The First Amendment protects your right as an American to the free exercise of your religion. It does not protect your right to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against other Americans.

And watching the tragic consequences of genuine religious discrimination on the nightly news makes it all the more urgent that we stand together and speak against this and other pending legislation -- and challenge those who are supporting it.

Because religious discrimination is a real thing (this is what religion is all about, and we always allow it.. whats different now?). And this blatant effort to exploit it in order to attack LGBT citizens is a reprehensible thing.

Let the boycotts begin.

People dive way to deep into s*** that is so simple.

This whole matter is beyond stupid, why do you want to force someone to cater to your whims if they hate you anyway?

I was going to go on, but all my mind comes up with is stupid, idiotic, dumb, roll-tiders, etc...

"I can't be the clown at the birthday party, I don't like you right handed people"

"well, **** you then, I'm calling the POlice"

I think I covered that already. I agree the gay wedding example is a poor one to use for supporting the principle that is the real issue.

[homersapien 11,386]

Any liberals for religious freedom?

...The whole point of freedom of religion is that it protects an extraordinary gamut of differing, frequently conflicting cosmologies, spiritual disciplines, and moral codes. They may include refusing to fight in defense of the nation, rejecting certain foodstuffs or medical treatments, discouraging young people from secondary or higher education, honoring celibacy or condemning a variety of sexual practices, sacrificing animals, drinking alcohol, or ingesting hallucinogens for ritual purposes, prescribing certain head coverings or hairstyles despite school or occupational rules, insisting on distinct roles for men and women, withdrawing from friends and family for lives of silence and seclusion, marching in prayer through neighborhoods on holy days, preaching on street corners or otherwise trying to convert others to these persuasions.

A great many of these beliefs and practices I disagree with. Some I deplore. Religious freedom means I live with the fundamentalists who describe the pope as anti-Christ and my kind as hell-bound—and with the black nationalist sects who consider me a white devil. Religious freedom means that I don’t have to send my children to the state schools if I choose not to nor does my Darwin-phobic neighbor. It also means state schools or state events or state laws should not force people to participate in religious rituals or practices contrary to their consciences.

Religious freedom means that I may very well want to question, critique, refute, moderate or otherwise alter religious beliefs and practices that I find irrational or unhealthy or dehumanizing or, yes, bigoted; but knowing how deeply rooted and sincerely held these convictions are, and how much about the universe remains in fact mysterious, and how much about my own perceptions of reality could in fact be mistaken, and how much religions do in fact evolve over time, I accommodate myself in the meantime to peaceful coexistence and thoughtful engagement. In particular I refuse to coerce religiously sincere people into personal actions that violate their conscience. And I refuse to dismiss their resistance to such coercion as nothing but bigotry...

...All my life liberals took the lead in defending and enlarging freedom of religion. Now they seem to have shrunk into silence, indifference, or, worse, disparagement. Contrary examples anyone?

https://www.commonwe...ligious-freedom

Liberals detest the COTUS.....unless they can use it to bury someone or to get something they want or for being a stress on O2 levels.

Does the wink mean you really understand the absurdity of your post? Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

[cooltigger21 0]

http://www.huffingto..._b_6950026.html

Misusing Religious Freedom as a Weapon of Mass Discrimination

Rev. Susan Russell

Episcopal priest and activist from Pasadena, Calif.

Religious discrimination is a real thing.

History -- both modern and ancient -- is tragically full of examples of times and places where religious discrimination has been the source of persecution, death and destruction. The perversion of religion into a weapon of mass destruction is antithetical to the core beliefs of all the world's great religions. And yet, none of those religions have escaped the sad reality that human beings -- given the power to do so -- will use God as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings.

Our forefathers knew that. And they brought that knowledge -- that wisdom -- into our Bill of Rights with a First Amendment that begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."(Exercising might be not baking a cake of two dudes going at it, or a myriad of other things that their beliefs tell them are wrong, with the literal hundreds of religions out there all with their own little rules to make them "unique" free exercise could be tons of annoying discriminating things)

The First Amendment both prevents the government of the United States from privileging one religion over another and protects each and every one of us -- as American citizens -- to believe whatever we choose -- or choose not -- to believe about what God thinks, approves of or blesses.

It is what protects our democracy from becoming a theocracy. And, as we watch with sadness and horror the nightly news stories of religious wars and sectarian violence, this guarantee of religious freedom is something Americans of all religions -- and no religion -- should rejoice and be glad in.

What that guarantee of religious freedom is not is something to be distorted and exploited to further a homophobic agenda of legislated discrimination against LGBT people. But that's exactly what happened today when Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the so-called "religious freedom" bill into lawduring a private ceremony in his Statehouse office.

Officially entitled the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" this bill will allow individuals and businesses in the state to deny services to LGBT people on "religious liberty" grounds -- doing nothing to restore freedom and everything to bolster bigotry. It is the first of many proposed measures pending in statehouses around the country - all with the intent of allowing business owners and individuals to discriminate against LGBT people on religious grounds.

It is a dangerous and detrimental piece of legislation -- not only for the LGBT Americans who are its direct target. It opens the door for discrimination, inequality and prejudice to nearly every citizen of every state, undermining the foundational American value of equal protection. It is nothing less than an orchestrated backlash against equal protection for LGBT citizens and the flagrant distortion of the ideal of religious freedom into a vehicle for religion based bigotry.

Bottom line: The First Amendment protects your right as an American to the free exercise of your religion. It does not protect your right to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against other Americans.

And watching the tragic consequences of genuine religious discrimination on the nightly news makes it all the more urgent that we stand together and speak against this and other pending legislation -- and challenge those who are supporting it.

Because religious discrimination is a real thing (this is what religion is all about, and we always allow it.. whats different now?). And this blatant effort to exploit it in order to attack LGBT citizens is a reprehensible thing.

Let the boycotts begin.

People dive way to deep into s*** that is so simple.

This whole matter is beyond stupid, why do you want to force someone to cater to your whims if they hate you anyway?

I was going to go on, but all my mind comes up with is stupid, idiotic, dumb, roll-tiders, etc...

"I can't be the clown at the birthday party, I don't like you right handed people"

"well, **** you then, I'm calling the POlice"

I think I covered that already. I agree the gay wedding example is a poor one to use for supporting the principle that is the real issue.

who is trying to discriminate against someone because of religious beliefs? Where is this taking place. I mean actual discrimination. If it was going on we would be hearing about it. It seems to me that your fear or hatred of organized religion has got you seeing things that aren't there.

[homersapien 11,386]

who is trying to discriminate against someone because of religious beliefs? Where is this taking place. I mean actual discrimination. If it was going on we would be hearing about it. It seems to me that your fear or hatred of organized religion has got you seeing things that aren't there.

Hate, no. Fear, yes.

[cooltigger21 0]

http://www.huffingto..._b_6950026.html

Misusing Religious Freedom as a Weapon of Mass Discrimination

Rev. Susan Russell

Episcopal priest and activist from Pasadena, Calif.

Religious discrimination is a real thing.

History -- both modern and ancient -- is tragically full of examples of times and places where religious discrimination has been the source of persecution, death and destruction. The perversion of religion into a weapon of mass destruction is antithetical to the core beliefs of all the world's great religions. And yet, none of those religions have escaped the sad reality that human beings -- given the power to do so -- will use God as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings.

Our forefathers knew that. And they brought that knowledge -- that wisdom -- into our Bill of Rights with a First Amendment that begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."(Exercising might be not baking a cake of two dudes going at it, or a myriad of other things that their beliefs tell them are wrong, with the literal hundreds of religions out there all with their own little rules to make them "unique" free exercise could be tons of annoying discriminating things)

The First Amendment both prevents the government of the United States from privileging one religion over another and protects each and every one of us -- as American citizens -- to believe whatever we choose -- or choose not -- to believe about what God thinks, approves of or blesses.

It is what protects our democracy from becoming a theocracy. And, as we watch with sadness and horror the nightly news stories of religious wars and sectarian violence, this guarantee of religious freedom is something Americans of all religions -- and no religion -- should rejoice and be glad in.

What that guarantee of religious freedom is not is something to be distorted and exploited to further a homophobic agenda of legislated discrimination against LGBT people. But that's exactly what happened today when Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the so-called "religious freedom" bill into lawduring a private ceremony in his Statehouse office.

Officially entitled the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" this bill will allow individuals and businesses in the state to deny services to LGBT people on "religious liberty" grounds -- doing nothing to restore freedom and everything to bolster bigotry. It is the first of many proposed measures pending in statehouses around the country - all with the intent of allowing business owners and individuals to discriminate against LGBT people on religious grounds.

It is a dangerous and detrimental piece of legislation -- not only for the LGBT Americans who are its direct target. It opens the door for discrimination, inequality and prejudice to nearly every citizen of every state, undermining the foundational American value of equal protection. It is nothing less than an orchestrated backlash against equal protection for LGBT citizens and the flagrant distortion of the ideal of religious freedom into a vehicle for religion based bigotry.

Bottom line: The First Amendment protects your right as an American to the free exercise of your religion. It does not protect your right to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against other Americans.

And watching the tragic consequences of genuine religious discrimination on the nightly news makes it all the more urgent that we stand together and speak against this and other pending legislation -- and challenge those who are supporting it.

Because religious discrimination is a real thing (this is what religion is all about, and we always allow it.. whats different now?). And this blatant effort to exploit it in order to attack LGBT citizens is a reprehensible thing.

Let the boycotts begin.

People dive way to deep into s*** that is so simple.

This whole matter is beyond stupid, why do you want to force someone to cater to your whims if they hate you anyway?

I was going to go on, but all my mind comes up with is stupid, idiotic, dumb, roll-tiders, etc...

"I can't be the clown at the birthday party, I don't like you right handed people"

"well, **** you then, I'm calling the POlice"

I think I covered that already. I agree the gay wedding example is a poor one to use for supporting the principle that is the real issue.

who is trying to discriminate against someone because of religious beliefs? Where is this taking place. I mean actual discrimination. If it was going on we would be hearing about it. It seems to me that your fear or hatred of organized religion has got you seeing things that aren't there.

Hate, no. Fear, yes.

How so? Why do you fear it so much? Has anyone ever tried to use their religious beliefs to discriminate against you? You need to take off the tinfoil hat. You know the worst atrocities in this world were committed by communist Russia who were athiests. The Communist Chinese are not far behind.

[Mims44 1,872]

http://www.huffingto..._b_6950026.html

Misusing Religious Freedom as a Weapon of Mass Discrimination

Rev. Susan Russell

Episcopal priest and activist from Pasadena, Calif.

Religious discrimination is a real thing.

History -- both modern and ancient -- is tragically full of examples of times and places where religious discrimination has been the source of persecution, death and destruction. The perversion of religion into a weapon of mass destruction is antithetical to the core beliefs of all the world's great religions. And yet, none of those religions have escaped the sad reality that human beings -- given the power to do so -- will use God as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering on other human beings.

Our forefathers knew that. And they brought that knowledge -- that wisdom -- into our Bill of Rights with a First Amendment that begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."(Exercising might be not baking a cake of two dudes going at it, or a myriad of other things that their beliefs tell them are wrong, with the literal hundreds of religions out there all with their own little rules to make them "unique" free exercise could be tons of annoying discriminating things)

The First Amendment both prevents the government of the United States from privileging one religion over another and protects each and every one of us -- as American citizens -- to believe whatever we choose -- or choose not -- to believe about what God thinks, approves of or blesses.

It is what protects our democracy from becoming a theocracy. And, as we watch with sadness and horror the nightly news stories of religious wars and sectarian violence, this guarantee of religious freedom is something Americans of all religions -- and no religion -- should rejoice and be glad in.

What that guarantee of religious freedom is not is something to be distorted and exploited to further a homophobic agenda of legislated discrimination against LGBT people. But that's exactly what happened today when Indiana Governor Mike Pence signed the so-called "religious freedom" bill into lawduring a private ceremony in his Statehouse office.

Officially entitled the "Religious Freedom Restoration Act" this bill will allow individuals and businesses in the state to deny services to LGBT people on "religious liberty" grounds -- doing nothing to restore freedom and everything to bolster bigotry. It is the first of many proposed measures pending in statehouses around the country - all with the intent of allowing business owners and individuals to discriminate against LGBT people on religious grounds.

It is a dangerous and detrimental piece of legislation -- not only for the LGBT Americans who are its direct target. It opens the door for discrimination, inequality and prejudice to nearly every citizen of every state, undermining the foundational American value of equal protection. It is nothing less than an orchestrated backlash against equal protection for LGBT citizens and the flagrant distortion of the ideal of religious freedom into a vehicle for religion based bigotry.

Bottom line: The First Amendment protects your right as an American to the free exercise of your religion. It does not protect your right to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate against other Americans.

And watching the tragic consequences of genuine religious discrimination on the nightly news makes it all the more urgent that we stand together and speak against this and other pending legislation -- and challenge those who are supporting it.

Because religious discrimination is a real thing (this is what religion is all about, and we always allow it.. whats different now?). And this blatant effort to exploit it in order to attack LGBT citizens is a reprehensible thing.

Let the boycotts begin.

People dive way to deep into s*** that is so simple.

This whole matter is beyond stupid, why do you want to force someone to cater to your whims if they hate you anyway?

I was going to go on, but all my mind comes up with is stupid, idiotic, dumb, roll-tiders, etc...

"I can't be the clown at the birthday party, I don't like you right handed people"

"well, **** you then, I'm calling the POlice"

I think I covered that already. I agree the gay wedding example is a poor one to use for supporting the principle that is the real issue.

who is trying to discriminate against someone because of religious beliefs? Where is this taking place. I mean actual discrimination. If it was going on we would be hearing about it. It seems to me that your fear or hatred of organized religion has got you seeing things that aren't there.

Hate, no. Fear, yes.

How so? Why do you fear it so much? Has anyone ever tried to use their religious beliefs to discriminate against you? You need to take off the tinfoil hat. You know the worst atrocities in this world were committed by communist Russia who were athiests. The Communist Chinese are not far behind.

I know the numbers change every year, but I was almost positive China kicked Russias butt in mass killings. The holodomor was horrible for sure, but I thought the "kill all peasants" (can't remember the Chinese wording for it) in China was at least twice as many bodies.

Although your overall point is still flawed, religion has been the cause of a lot of strife as well... even if it's used by people who didn't believe in it, it was still a tool used by "bad" people to commit atrocities.

[Aufan59 65]

Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly already protect all peaceful religions. Freedom to exercise religion is an arbitrary freedom that can mean anything.

All religions except Christianity are imagined, thus all religions except Christianity have no bounds on what a "religious exercise" is. Anything you can imagine can be considered an exercise of religion. How can you protect people's rights to do anything you can imagine?

[Strychnine 1,802]

Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly already protect all peaceful religions. Freedom to exercise religion is an arbitrary freedom that can mean anything.

All religions except Christianity are imagined, thus all religions except Christianity have no bounds on what a "religious exercise" is. Anything you can imagine can be considered an exercise of religion. How can you protect people's rights to do anything you can imagine?

How is Christianity distinctly un-imagined?

[homersapien 11,386]

How so? Why do you fear it so much? Has anyone ever tried to use their religious beliefs to discriminate against you? You need to take off the tinfoil hat. You know the worst atrocities in this world were committed by communist Russia who were athiests. The Communist Chinese are not far behind.

1. Because of the threat of a Christian theocracy, aka dominionism.
   
2. Because Christians represent the only organizing force I can imagine capable of such a thing.
   
3. No, but my fear is not for what an individual Christian might do, it's for what they could do collectively and politically.
   
4. Russia and China are red herrings. I could cite a very long list of historical and current conflicts that were fueled by religion. But none of that history really matters when considering a potential threat.
   

[homersapien 11,386]

Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly already protect all peaceful religions. Freedom to exercise religion is an arbitrary freedom that can mean anything.

All religions except Christianity are imagined, thus all religions except Christianity have no bounds on what a "religious exercise" is. Anything you can imagine can be considered an exercise of religion. How can you protect people's rights to do anything you can imagine?

How is Christianity distinctly un-imagined?

I assumed it was satire.

[Aufan59 65]

Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly already protect all peaceful religions. Freedom to exercise religion is an arbitrary freedom that can mean anything.

All religions except Christianity are imagined, thus all religions except Christianity have no bounds on what a "religious exercise" is. Anything you can imagine can be considered an exercise of religion. How can you protect people's rights to do anything you can imagine?

How is Christianity distinctly un-imagined?

I assume it to be true because it is irrelevant for the argument.

Whichever religion (if any) you find to be true, all others are a result of human imagination... 99.9% (or 100%) of religions are the product of human imagination. Thus a "religious exercise" is essentially anything a human can imagine.

How can we protect your rights to freely exercise religion, or in other words, do anything you can imagine?

[autigeremt 6,642]

Any liberals for religious freedom?

...The whole point of freedom of religion is that it protects an extraordinary gamut of differing, frequently conflicting cosmologies, spiritual disciplines, and moral codes. They may include refusing to fight in defense of the nation, rejecting certain foodstuffs or medical treatments, discouraging young people from secondary or higher education, honoring celibacy or condemning a variety of sexual practices, sacrificing animals, drinking alcohol, or ingesting hallucinogens for ritual purposes, prescribing certain head coverings or hairstyles despite school or occupational rules, insisting on distinct roles for men and women, withdrawing from friends and family for lives of silence and seclusion, marching in prayer through neighborhoods on holy days, preaching on street corners or otherwise trying to convert others to these persuasions.

A great many of these beliefs and practices I disagree with. Some I deplore. Religious freedom means I live with the fundamentalists who describe the pope as anti-Christ and my kind as hell-bound—and with the black nationalist sects who consider me a white devil. Religious freedom means that I don’t have to send my children to the state schools if I choose not to nor does my Darwin-phobic neighbor. It also means state schools or state events or state laws should not force people to participate in religious rituals or practices contrary to their consciences.

Religious freedom means that I may very well want to question, critique, refute, moderate or otherwise alter religious beliefs and practices that I find irrational or unhealthy or dehumanizing or, yes, bigoted; but knowing how deeply rooted and sincerely held these convictions are, and how much about the universe remains in fact mysterious, and how much about my own perceptions of reality could in fact be mistaken, and how much religions do in fact evolve over time, I accommodate myself in the meantime to peaceful coexistence and thoughtful engagement. In particular I refuse to coerce religiously sincere people into personal actions that violate their conscience. And I refuse to dismiss their resistance to such coercion as nothing but bigotry...

...All my life liberals took the lead in defending and enlarging freedom of religion. Now they seem to have shrunk into silence, indifference, or, worse, disparagement. Contrary examples anyone?

https://www.commonwe...ligious-freedom

Liberals detest the COTUS.....unless they can use it to bury someone or to get something they want or for being a stress on O2 levels. ;)/>

Does the wink mean you really understand the absurdity of your post? Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

You have GOT to get out more. Lol

[homersapien 11,386]

Liberals detest the COTUS.....unless they can use it to bury someone or to get something they want or for being a stress on O2 levels. ;)/>

Does the wink mean you really understand the absurdity of your post? Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

You have GOT to get out more. Lol

Says the guy who said liberals "detest" the Constitution of the United States. :-\