The Cross and the Confederate Flag

[Mims44 1,890]

Well, citing atrocities that were committed under the US flag is a rather weak claim for equivalence.

After all, the US flag was not created to represented a military formed for the expressed purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, nor was it ever subsequently used to specifically represent the cause of white supremacy because of that heritage.

The CBF has more in common with the skull-and-bones pirate flag than it does with the stars and stripes.

But I applaud your efforts to remember the atrocities that were committed under the American flag. It's important not to whitewash our history.

Would you be upset if some kids were waving the skull and crossbones at a sports event? Or feel the need to educate them on all the negatives that flag has represented?

[alexava 6,973]

So I took the time to read this for fun. Some things I think since everyone else gets their view =P

The flag should be taken down off of the State House. They didn't even decide to raise it until the Civil Rights movements began and did so in defiance of it, so ya they were pricks about it in 62 with their use.

Now the other stuff that people in general and the press are discussing is overboard (outside of this thread). Taking it down or out of any museums. I've seen people calling for monuments to be taken down and any graves with any CSA marking on them to be desecrated and torn up. Cause those people don't deserve to have a grave. Then you have all the merchandise being pulled and the Dukes of Hazard taken off TV. You have the discussion of never showing movies again like Gone With The Wind. Removing history based RTS games. Then if you have any family members that fought for the Confederacy you are suppose to disown them and start immediately doing penance. You are not allowed to have any respect or pride for that part of your ancestry. Regardless of why they fought, or if they owned slaves.

To be truthful the majority of Southerners dissociate slavery and racism and use it as a symbol of Southern Pride in modern society. Are their idiots that still want it to be a symbol of racism, yes. You can do that with anything though. Remember the resurgence of the X and the African medallions of the early 90's? Were plenty of black youth wearing that stuff proudly. Some were cool and it was just a heritage thing, no worries. Then there were the other ones that were not cool about it and let you know you were the devil. Then someone came out with a You Wear Your X I'll Wear Mine T'shirt and that guy is probably on a beach somewhere still laughing at both those groups.

So defining every White Southerner with a CF as a racist redneck is just as dumb as defining every Black with a X or African medallion as a angry militant racist.

And have you guys every actually looked at pictures or watched documentary's about the Klan on History Channel? They fly the American flag as much, if not more than the CF one.

Now I do understand why there are those in the African American community have their view. The reasons were posted here about this is what happened to my ancestors during that time period. Interesting to me is that alot of that stuff also occurred under the American flag.

The thread did a what if with the Japanese, did it's German thing, but I can't believe that not one single person mentioned the most obvious comparison for this country.

So my Comanche ancestors were: Murdered and raped. They had their lands taken from them. They were given disease infected blankets to kill them off. They had their food supplies destroyed to almost extinction to starve them. They had bounties placed on their head for sport. The old, young, and women were killed with boot heels and rifle butts to save ammo. It goes on. Guess what flag that all happened under.

Then there are the interesting comparisons. The Nazi flag with the Jews. Interestingly enough Custer, Sherman, and Grant (Northern Heroes) actually discussed the "final solution" before Hitler did in regards to the Native Americans. Did you also know that Custer used modern terrorist tactics of using women and children as human shields? I also always find it interesting that African-Americans never think they had a hand in that or want to admit it, despite the 9th and 10th Calvary along with the 24th and 25th infantry fully participating in the Indian Wars. These guys are considered heroes and saviors and have monuments scattered across the country in their honor. In the 80's they even tried to market a video game called Custer's Revenge where the object was to dodge arrows to rape a Native American woman (no kidding.. look it up.) Then you have people to this very day that want to deny any of this even happened and erase it from history books.

So should the American flag be pulled cause of what it could potentially represent to the Comanche and other Native Americans. Should every monument of that period be torn down... lol Good bye Ft Sill right Mimms. Should every John Wayne western be banned from being shown? Especially given his 71 Playboy interview where he said they got what they deserved and were selfish for not sharing cause whites needed land lol.

My contribution to getting to 100! and btw.......................a belated HAPPY CUSTER MASSACRE DAY to you ALL!

you covered the only real issue in your second paragraph. You are correct. None of the rest matters.

You possess a natural talent of being an arrogant prick. 'Grats....

piss in the Cheerios today? I not aware if I have ever been called an arrogant prick. Or arrogant or a prick. So you should consider that an accomplishment I guess. Congrats to you .

tex, I hope you didn't take my response Mims did. I meant it to show we agree on the issue that matters. Not that I disagree or agree with the rest, and not that I didn't want to see it. The only political issue is the display on state property. The rest is opinion and personal interpretations that are not going to change very much. At least that is what I have concluded.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

This thread my fall in the cistern before it reaches 100 pages.

[Mims44 1,890]

This thread my fall in the cistern before it reaches 100 pages.

Hoping not.

The CFB proves that global warming is a hoax. The "X" is meant to symbolize the futility of mans efforts to change his environment.

Now, someone PM Bigbens to respond to my claim:)

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Ben is not helping the cause

[cole256 17,084]

Great way to get off tangent, I'm not going to lie, I will DEFINITELY be doing this in the future in one of the threads...

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Well, citing atrocities that were committed under the US flag is a rather weak claim for equivalence.

After all, the US flag was not created to represented a military formed for the expressed purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, nor was it ever subsequently used to specifically represent the cause of white supremacy because of that heritage.

The CBF has more in common with the skull-and-bones pirate flag than it does with the stars and stripes.

But I applaud your efforts to remember the atrocities that were committed under the American flag. It's important not to whitewash our history.

So you are saying that we should do away with the history and condemn the accomplishments, actions, personnel/families and everything to do with (VFA) 103?

Do we do the same with Royal Navy Submariners? They have a tradition of flying the Jolly Roger on return from missions as a symbol of bravado and stealth.

Do I now owe society an apology for my engagements on a certain Oct. 31 with a slutty pirate wearing skulls and crossbones!?!..... cause I sir have zero regrets about that atrocity.

And actually wouldn't the skull and crossbones have much in common with the US flag. One, both were indicators of a break from British rule and law. Two, the flag is said to have actually meant that if you don't resist while we take your stuff then you shall be given quarter. Same rules the US flag worked under in Western expansion. Don't resist, give us your land, go to the reservation, and you will be given quarter. Under both flags if you resisted then you were dealt with through force. Course the US flag then added a star at a later date symbolizing the acquisition.

Let's be honest where do you see the Jolly Roger today the most in the US? Jimmy Buffet and Kenny Chesney concerts. It represents kicking back, being lazy, having a good time beach style, and rebelling a little from the 9-5 norm.

There are still pirates in 2015. They still steal, rape, murder. Someone's ancestors were victims of pirates. While I have no clue if they fly a flag to be honest, the actions historically associated with that flag by many still occur. There are those that break laws and put others in danger and consider themselves ecopirates. Those groups still do fly the Jolly Roger.

That is the problem with flags and trying to judge all people off them. Like above you compare the Jolly Roger to slavery and oppression, I see a famous fighter squadron, lazy beach time lifestyle, and freaky October sexy time.

Do not mess up slutty pirate costumes for the rest of us man!!

[Mims44 1,890]

Great way to get off tangent, I'm not going to lie, I will DEFINITELY be doing this in the future in one of the threads...

This thread is now all about going off tangent to get more pages lol.

But me and you have always been able to go back and forth on athletic issues.... bring sokmething up and we'll get this thing right back where it needs to be:)

[autigeremt 6,704]

[homersapien 11,447]

Well, citing atrocities that were committed under the US flag is a rather weak claim for equivalence.

After all, the US flag was not created to represented a military formed for the expressed purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, nor was it ever subsequently used to specifically represent the cause of white supremacy because of that heritage.

The CBF has more in common with the skull-and-bones pirate flag than it does with the stars and stripes.

But I applaud your efforts to remember the atrocities that were committed under the American flag. It's important not to whitewash our history.

So you are saying that we should do away with the history and condemn the accomplishments, actions, personnel/families and everything to do with (VFA) 103?

Do we do the same with Royal Navy Submariners? They have a tradition of flying the Jolly Roger on return from missions as a symbol of bravado and stealth.

Do I now owe society an apology for my engagements on a certain Oct. 31 with a slutty pirate wearing skulls and crossbones!?!..... cause I sir have zero regrets about that atrocity.

And actually wouldn't the skull and crossbones have much in common with the US flag. One, both were indicators of a break from British rule and law. Two, the flag is said to have actually meant that if you don't resist while we take your stuff then you shall be given quarter. Same rules the US flag worked under in Western expansion. Don't resist, give us your land, go to the reservation, and you will be given quarter. Under both flags if you resisted then you were dealt with through force. Course the US flag then added a star at a later date symbolizing the acquisition.

Let's be honest where do you see the Jolly Roger today the most in the US? Jimmy Buffet and Kenny Chesney concerts. It represents kicking back, being lazy, having a good time beach style, and rebelling a little from the 9-5 norm.

There are still pirates in 2015. They still steal, rape, murder. Someone's ancestors were victims of pirates. While I have no clue if they fly a flag to be honest, the actions historically associated with that flag by many still occur. There are those that break laws and put others in danger and consider themselves ecopirates. Those groups still do fly the Jolly Roger.

That is the problem with flags and trying to judge all people off them. Like above you compare the Jolly Roger to slavery and oppression, I see a famous fighter squadron, lazy beach time lifestyle, and freaky October sexy time.

Do not mess up slutty pirate costumes for the rest of us man!!

No.

Please read carefully:

I was equating the CBF with the pirate flag in terms of it's being invented or originated for an unworthy cause.

The analogy was to point out the basic difference between the CBF and the stars and stripes. True, atrocities have been committed under the stars and stripes but it was not "born" to represent an evil cause as the other two were.

I am not saying the pirate flag and the CBF are alike in any other way. Unlike the CBF, the pirate flag has not been used to seriously represent the evil that it was spawned from. It was not used for decades after the war to represent the cause of white power. There are not generations of people for whom the pirate flag is used to symbolize the proposition they are less than full fledged humans or citizens.

The pirate flag is used by the military - and sports teams - to connote being "bad-assed", just like the devil logo. The reason that is acceptable is because neither the devil or the pirate flag represents a serious, ongoing evil such as racism.

I regret I used the analogy to make my original point. I should have recognized there are some here who would jump on it as an opportunity to extrapolate general equivalence for the sake of argument. I should have known that a limited and subtle analogy would be subject to that extrapolation.

Hopefully this clears things up.

[autigeremt 6,704]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

[homersapien 11,447]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

What exactly is America's original sin? Was the tea that expensive?

[homersapien 11,447]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

What exactly is America's original sin? Was the tea that expensive?

1. Slavery of course. You've really never heard that before?

2. Sorry don't get it. You'll have to explain.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

What exactly is America's original sin? Was the tea that expensive?

1. Slavery of course. You've really never heard that before?

2. Sorry don't get it. You'll have to explain.

That was a joke. The Boston Tea party and the "sin" taxes

[WarTim 3,457]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

What exactly is America's original sin? Was the tea that expensive?

Huge Laugh!! Thanks!!

[homersapien 11,447]

He certainly has a strange sense of humor.

[Mims44 1,890]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

[autigeremt 6,704]

SC House vote to remove the flag at 12:45 EST. good timing! It is done....

[AUDub 11,184]

SC House vote to remove the flag at 12:45 EST. good timing! It is done....

One more vote that is likely perfunctory. Sounds like a done deal.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Well, citing atrocities that were committed under the US flag is a rather weak claim for equivalence.

After all, the US flag was not created to represented a military formed for the expressed purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, nor was it ever subsequently used to specifically represent the cause of white supremacy because of that heritage.

The CBF has more in common with the skull-and-bones pirate flag than it does with the stars and stripes.

But I applaud your efforts to remember the atrocities that were committed under the American flag. It's important not to whitewash our history.

So you are saying that we should do away with the history and condemn the accomplishments, actions, personnel/families and everything to do with (VFA) 103?

Do we do the same with Royal Navy Submariners? They have a tradition of flying the Jolly Roger on return from missions as a symbol of bravado and stealth.

Do I now owe society an apology for my engagements on a certain Oct. 31 with a slutty pirate wearing skulls and crossbones!?!..... cause I sir have zero regrets about that atrocity.

And actually wouldn't the skull and crossbones have much in common with the US flag. One, both were indicators of a break from British rule and law. Two, the flag is said to have actually meant that if you don't resist while we take your stuff then you shall be given quarter. Same rules the US flag worked under in Western expansion. Don't resist, give us your land, go to the reservation, and you will be given quarter. Under both flags if you resisted then you were dealt with through force. Course the US flag then added a star at a later date symbolizing the acquisition.

Let's be honest where do you see the Jolly Roger today the most in the US? Jimmy Buffet and Kenny Chesney concerts. It represents kicking back, being lazy, having a good time beach style, and rebelling a little from the 9-5 norm.

There are still pirates in 2015. They still steal, rape, murder. Someone's ancestors were victims of pirates. While I have no clue if they fly a flag to be honest, the actions historically associated with that flag by many still occur. There are those that break laws and put others in danger and consider themselves ecopirates. Those groups still do fly the Jolly Roger.

That is the problem with flags and trying to judge all people off them. Like above you compare the Jolly Roger to slavery and oppression, I see a famous fighter squadron, lazy beach time lifestyle, and freaky October sexy time.

Do not mess up slutty pirate costumes for the rest of us man!!

No.

Please read carefully:

I was equating the CBF with the pirate flag in terms of it's being invented or originated for an unworthy cause.

The analogy was to point out the basic difference between the CBF and the stars and stripes. True, atrocities have been committed under the stars and stripes but it was not "born" to represent an evil cause as the other two were.

I am not saying the pirate flag and the CBF are alike in any other way. Unlike the CBF, the pirate flag has not been used to seriously represent the evil that it was spawned from. It was not used for decades after the war to represent the cause of white power. There are not generations of people for whom the pirate flag is used to symbolize the proposition they are less than full fledged humans or citizens.

The pirate flag is used by the military - and sports teams - to connote being "bad-assed", just like the devil logo. The reason that is acceptable is because neither the devil or the pirate flag represents a serious, ongoing evil such as racism.

I regret I used the analogy to make my original point. I should have recognized there are some here who would jump on it as an opportunity to extrapolate general equivalence for the sake of argument. I should have known that a limited and subtle analogy would be subject to that extrapolation.

Hopefully this clears things up.

No I get your point. The CF came up during a transitional period in American culture. Some agreed, some didn't agree. Just like the background of the original US flag (where slavery was legal everywhere). Just like it is used by racist hate groups today. Slavery occurred under both flags in this country.

You are missing my point. People only see what they want to in many modern day symbols and those symbols can evolve over time. They also still get misused.

Again like above you see the Jolly Roger to meaning bad ass. I see it as beach-side lazy songs and lifestyle and Oct. sexy time. Ask a 10 year old what he see's and it is most likely an amusement park and Jack Sparrow. Ask the Japanese what it means and they most likely will say Eco-Terrorist.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

And while they dealt with that sin they didn't deal with the other sins against Native Americans and kicked it into higher gear post Civil War. Under the flags flown by the United States which are flown by hate groups today.

[channonc 466]

Two SC Senators who voted against removing CF have long history of racist ties

[autigeremt 6,704]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

And while they dealt with that sin they didn't deal with the other sins against Native Americans and kicked it into higher gear post Civil War. Under the flags flown by the United States which are flown by hate groups today.

You can't paint over some sins when the "preacher" has selective sermon.

[homersapien 11,447]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.