The Cross and the Confederate Flag

[aujeff11 6,243]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.

It wasn't funny because I had to tell you what the joke meant. That is typical. Other than that, it wasn't meant to be a knee slapper.

[homersapien 11,447]

Well, citing atrocities that were committed under the US flag is a rather weak claim for equivalence.

After all, the US flag was not created to represented a military formed for the expressed purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, nor was it ever subsequently used to specifically represent the cause of white supremacy because of that heritage.

The CBF has more in common with the skull-and-bones pirate flag than it does with the stars and stripes.

But I applaud your efforts to remember the atrocities that were committed under the American flag. It's important not to whitewash our history.

So you are saying that we should do away with the history and condemn the accomplishments, actions, personnel/families and everything to do with (VFA) 103?

Do we do the same with Royal Navy Submariners? They have a tradition of flying the Jolly Roger on return from missions as a symbol of bravado and stealth.

Do I now owe society an apology for my engagements on a certain Oct. 31 with a slutty pirate wearing skulls and crossbones!?!..... cause I sir have zero regrets about that atrocity.

And actually wouldn't the skull and crossbones have much in common with the US flag. One, both were indicators of a break from British rule and law. Two, the flag is said to have actually meant that if you don't resist while we take your stuff then you shall be given quarter. Same rules the US flag worked under in Western expansion. Don't resist, give us your land, go to the reservation, and you will be given quarter. Under both flags if you resisted then you were dealt with through force. Course the US flag then added a star at a later date symbolizing the acquisition.

Let's be honest where do you see the Jolly Roger today the most in the US? Jimmy Buffet and Kenny Chesney concerts. It represents kicking back, being lazy, having a good time beach style, and rebelling a little from the 9-5 norm.

There are still pirates in 2015. They still steal, rape, murder. Someone's ancestors were victims of pirates. While I have no clue if they fly a flag to be honest, the actions historically associated with that flag by many still occur. There are those that break laws and put others in danger and consider themselves ecopirates. Those groups still do fly the Jolly Roger.

That is the problem with flags and trying to judge all people off them. Like above you compare the Jolly Roger to slavery and oppression, I see a famous fighter squadron, lazy beach time lifestyle, and freaky October sexy time.

Do not mess up slutty pirate costumes for the rest of us man!!

No.

Please read carefully:

I was equating the CBF with the pirate flag in terms of it's being invented or originated for an unworthy cause.

The analogy was to point out the basic difference between the CBF and the stars and stripes. True, atrocities have been committed under the stars and stripes but it was not "born" to represent an evil cause as the other two were.

I am not saying the pirate flag and the CBF are alike in any other way. Unlike the CBF, the pirate flag has not been used to seriously represent the evil that it was spawned from. It was not used for decades after the war to represent the cause of white power. There are not generations of people for whom the pirate flag is used to symbolize the proposition they are less than full fledged humans or citizens.

The pirate flag is used by the military - and sports teams - to connote being "bad-assed", just like the devil logo. The reason that is acceptable is because neither the devil or the pirate flag represents a serious, ongoing evil such as racism.

I regret I used the analogy to make my original point. I should have recognized there are some here who would jump on it as an opportunity to extrapolate general equivalence for the sake of argument. I should have known that a limited and subtle analogy would be subject to that extrapolation.

Hopefully this clears things up.

No I get your point. The CF came up during a transitional period in American culture. Some agreed, some didn't agree. Just like the background of the original US flag (where slavery was legal everywhere). Just like it is used by racist hate groups today. Slavery occurred under both flags in this country.

You are missing my point. People only see what they want to in many modern day symbols and those symbols can evolve over time. They also still get misused.

Again like above you see the Jolly Roger to meaning bad ass. I see it as beach-side lazy songs and lifestyle and Oct. sexy time. Ask a 10 year old what he see's and it is most likely an amusement park and Jack Sparrow. Ask the Japanese what it means and they most likely will say Eco-Terrorist.

Well, maybe this is where the subject of the flag being "hijacked" by racists is relevant. Had the white supremacists glommed on the pirate flag instead, we might be having a different discussion.

But again, I was contrasting the origins of the CFB and the stars and stripes, not what they symbolize to people today.

Finally, whatever emotional feelings people have about adopted about the CBF, they simply ignore or disregard the actual reality of it's origins and use.

It is what it is.

I say this from experience as I went through the exact same experience as a young boy. But then I became older, more educated and more aware.

[homersapien 11,447]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.

It wasn't funny because I had to tell you what the joke meant. That is typical. Other than that, it wasn't meant to be a knee slapper.

I understand completely.

I am talking about War Timmy's claim of getting a "HUGE laugh" from it. In fact, he simply thought you had delivered me a shot and was celebrating it.

(What did you mean by "that is typical"?)

[aujeff11 6,243]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.

It wasn't funny because I had to tell you what the joke meant. That is typical. Other than that, it wasn't meant to be a knee slapper.

I understand completely.

I am talking about War Timmy's claim of getting a "HUGE laugh" from it. In fact, he simply thought you had delivered me a shot and was celebrating it.

(What did you mean by "that is typical"?)

I meant when people don't understand a joke, and they need it explained, typically the laughter and spontaneity isnt the same as when a person does understand a joke.

[homersapien 11,447]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

And while they dealt with that sin they didn't deal with the other sins against Native Americans and kicked it into higher gear post Civil War. Under the flags flown by the United States which are flown by hate groups today.

All true. (Well except for the last sentence which I didn't quite get.)

But, either from it's origins or it's subsequent use by white supremacists, there is a strong symbolic tie to racism that doesn't exist with the American flag, except for those who truly believe American is evil or for those who are trying to wrap themselves in the flag and co opt it for their evil purpose.

[homersapien 11,447]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.

It wasn't funny because I had to tell you what the joke meant. That is typical. Other than that, it wasn't meant to be a knee slapper.

I understand completely.

I am talking about War Timmy's claim of getting a "HUGE laugh" from it. In fact, he simply thought you had delivered me a shot and was celebrating it.

(What did you mean by "that is typical"?)

I meant when people don't understand a joke, and they need it explained, typically the laughter and spontaneity isnt the same as when a person does understand a joke.

The laughter and spontaneity wasn't the same because I didn't see it as a "joke" at all.

I asked for explanation because I didn't see the tie-in to the country's original sin.

[aujeff11 6,243]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.

It wasn't funny because I had to tell you what the joke meant. That is typical. Other than that, it wasn't meant to be a knee slapper.

I understand completely.

I am talking about War Timmy's claim of getting a "HUGE laugh" from it. In fact, he simply thought you had delivered me a shot and was celebrating it.

(What did you mean by "that is typical"?)

I meant when people don't understand a joke, and they need it explained, typically the laughter and spontaneity isnt the same as when a person does understand a joke.

The laughter and spontaneity wasn't the same because I didn't see it as a "joke" at all.

I asked for explanation because I didn't see the tie-in to the country's original sin.

it doesn't tie in to slavery at all!! Just forget it. Aight

[channonc 466]

Uh oh... is the thread beginning to die?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

No, no, no channoc. We can't let it you DC carpetbagger

[autigeremt 6,704]

Gov. Haley has signed the bill. The flag comes down tomorrow morning.

[Mims44 1,890]

I got the tea joke, does that make me weird?

Well, if it gave you a "HUGE laugh", it makes your sense of humor kind of weird.

While it may or may not have been a good retort, it wasn't really that funny.

No, no laugh at all.... though to be fair I rarely ever laugh (Dave Chappelle aside). But I did understand what he was saying, and was not at a complete loss as to what his grouping of words were meant to convey.

[channonc 466]

No, no, no channoc. We can't let it you DC carpetbagger ;D/>

LOL. Trying to do my part in keeping it alive!

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Are you flying your CF in DC (LMAO)

[Mims44 1,890]

I guess I should get one at some point....

Though actually important CW flags are at the forefront.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Mims...heck get you an ISIS flag. Hardly anybody in DC seems offended by those.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Well, citing atrocities that were committed under the US flag is a rather weak claim for equivalence.

After all, the US flag was not created to represented a military formed for the expressed purpose of preserving and expanding slavery, nor was it ever subsequently used to specifically represent the cause of white supremacy because of that heritage.

The CBF has more in common with the skull-and-bones pirate flag than it does with the stars and stripes.

But I applaud your efforts to remember the atrocities that were committed under the American flag. It's important not to whitewash our history.

So you are saying that we should do away with the history and condemn the accomplishments, actions, personnel/families and everything to do with (VFA) 103?

Do we do the same with Royal Navy Submariners? They have a tradition of flying the Jolly Roger on return from missions as a symbol of bravado and stealth.

Do I now owe society an apology for my engagements on a certain Oct. 31 with a slutty pirate wearing skulls and crossbones!?!..... cause I sir have zero regrets about that atrocity.

And actually wouldn't the skull and crossbones have much in common with the US flag. One, both were indicators of a break from British rule and law. Two, the flag is said to have actually meant that if you don't resist while we take your stuff then you shall be given quarter. Same rules the US flag worked under in Western expansion. Don't resist, give us your land, go to the reservation, and you will be given quarter. Under both flags if you resisted then you were dealt with through force. Course the US flag then added a star at a later date symbolizing the acquisition.

Let's be honest where do you see the Jolly Roger today the most in the US? Jimmy Buffet and Kenny Chesney concerts. It represents kicking back, being lazy, having a good time beach style, and rebelling a little from the 9-5 norm.

There are still pirates in 2015. They still steal, rape, murder. Someone's ancestors were victims of pirates. While I have no clue if they fly a flag to be honest, the actions historically associated with that flag by many still occur. There are those that break laws and put others in danger and consider themselves ecopirates. Those groups still do fly the Jolly Roger.

That is the problem with flags and trying to judge all people off them. Like above you compare the Jolly Roger to slavery and oppression, I see a famous fighter squadron, lazy beach time lifestyle, and freaky October sexy time.

Do not mess up slutty pirate costumes for the rest of us man!!

No.

Please read carefully:

I was equating the CBF with the pirate flag in terms of it's being invented or originated for an unworthy cause.

The analogy was to point out the basic difference between the CBF and the stars and stripes. True, atrocities have been committed under the stars and stripes but it was not "born" to represent an evil cause as the other two were.

I am not saying the pirate flag and the CBF are alike in any other way. Unlike the CBF, the pirate flag has not been used to seriously represent the evil that it was spawned from. It was not used for decades after the war to represent the cause of white power. There are not generations of people for whom the pirate flag is used to symbolize the proposition they are less than full fledged humans or citizens.

The pirate flag is used by the military - and sports teams - to connote being "bad-assed", just like the devil logo. The reason that is acceptable is because neither the devil or the pirate flag represents a serious, ongoing evil such as racism.

I regret I used the analogy to make my original point. I should have recognized there are some here who would jump on it as an opportunity to extrapolate general equivalence for the sake of argument. I should have known that a limited and subtle analogy would be subject to that extrapolation.

Hopefully this clears things up.

No I get your point. The CF came up during a transitional period in American culture. Some agreed, some didn't agree. Just like the background of the original US flag (where slavery was legal everywhere). Just like it is used by racist hate groups today. Slavery occurred under both flags in this country.

You are missing my point. People only see what they want to in many modern day symbols and those symbols can evolve over time. They also still get misused.

Again like above you see the Jolly Roger to meaning bad ass. I see it as beach-side lazy songs and lifestyle and Oct. sexy time. Ask a 10 year old what he see's and it is most likely an amusement park and Jack Sparrow. Ask the Japanese what it means and they most likely will say Eco-Terrorist.

Well, maybe this is where the subject of the flag being "hijacked" by racists is relevant. Had the white supremacists glommed on the pirate flag instead, we might be having a different discussion.

But again, I was contrasting the origins of the CFB and the stars and stripes, not what they symbolize to people today.

Finally, whatever emotional feelings people have about adopted about the CBF, they simply ignore or disregard the actual reality of it's origins and use.

It is what it is.

I say this from experience as I went through the exact same experience as a young boy. But then I became older, more educated and more aware.

And if you ban all CF material. The flags, the movies, the TV shows, and you tear down all the monuments and all the graves. Then you make it illegal to fly the CF flag in this country what will hate groups fly?

The majority of the KKK hates the skinhead Nazi guys so that one isn't going up.

They will fly the American flag as it is today (which they do now, and have done since the second coming of the Klan in 1915 or so where it really took the shape of what we view the modern Klan as). Which as you say it is what it is, a flag born out of rebellion that supported the institution of slavery at its time also. Which we like to disregard and ignore it's origins and use.

Especially since their big thing is now immigration.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

And while they dealt with that sin they didn't deal with the other sins against Native Americans and kicked it into higher gear post Civil War. Under the flags flown by the United States which are flown by hate groups today.

All true. (Well except for the last sentence which I didn't quite get.)

But, either from it's origins or it's subsequent use by white supremacists, there is a strong symbolic tie to racism that doesn't exist with the American flag, except for those who truly believe American is evil or for those who are trying to wrap themselves in the flag and co opt it for their evil purpose.

Last sentence refers to the fact that hate groups do fly the American flag.

[Mims44 1,890]

Mims...heck get you an ISIS flag. Hardly anybody in DC seems offended by those.

Bleh, I haven't studied modern politics for years. Rather stick to something I know more than most about. (except people on political forums that is)

[homersapien 11,447]

Your analogy, while gallant, has holes in it.

The flag of the United States represents a lot of good and bad. 77 years of slavery being accepted shows that both the CBF and the stars and stripes share commonality. Both sprung up through rebellion. Both flew over a war for independence. Only one remained the flag of a nation while the other was to be furled and placed in historical context. Unfortunately one was given a new meaning by hate groups and such used to espouse rhetoric for an entire race of people from one region of the country.

It is what it is...and the stars and stripes will be the next symbol under attack by the revisionist.

Being born in rebellion is probably true of many if not most flags. (It would be an interesting research project). The more important question is the reason for the rebellion.

The American flag represents a nation that ultimately recognized and dealt with our country's original sin. The CBF represented the military of a self-proclaimed nation dedicated to the preservation and expansion of that original sin.

There is a clear difference in symbolic heritage.

And while they dealt with that sin they didn't deal with the other sins against Native Americans and kicked it into higher gear post Civil War. Under the flags flown by the United States which are flown by hate groups today.

All true. (Well except for the last sentence which I didn't quite get.)

But, either from it's origins or it's subsequent use by white supremacists, there is a strong symbolic tie to racism that doesn't exist with the American flag, except for those who truly believe American is evil or for those who are trying to wrap themselves in the flag and co opt it for their evil purpose.

Last sentence refers to the fact that hate groups do fly the American flag.

Good grief.

We are replicating the Titan/EMT exchange.

The American flag does not connote white supremacy; the CBF does. That is fact.

There are obvious reasons for that fact which you may or may not accept as it pleases you. You can also challenge that fact with all the rationalization and logic you want, but it doesn't change it.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

It's all in the eye of the beholder. We just need a new flag.....a white one of surrender to everyone who is offended by all the other flags.

[AUUSN 823]

It's all in the eye of the beholder. We just need a new flag.....a white one of surrender to everyone who is offended by all the other flags.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Don't be a spoil sport sailor. We have to get to 100 pages.

[AUDub 11,184]

Don't be a spoil sport sailor. We have to get to 100 pages.

Funny image macros of Elsa get us there just as well.

[AUUSN 823]

Don't be a spoil sport sailor. We have to get to 100 pages.

How many times do I have to remind you that Sailor is capitalized. For someone who supposedly served in MY Navy, you sure show a lot of ignorance.

[WarTim 3,457]

It's all in the eye of the beholder. We just need a new flag.....a white one of surrender to everyone who is offended by all the other flags.

Hasn't barry already flown this flag???