Reason This Doctor Says Georgia Fired Him

[Auburn4life 24]

http://dailysignal.com/2016/04/20/the-chilling-reason-this-doctor-says-georgia-fired-him/

A public health official, who says he was fired by Georgia’s health agency for the content of his sermons, filed a lawsuit today against the state claiming religious discrimination.

Dr. Eric Walsh accepted a position as the Georgia Department of Public Health’s director for the northwest part of the state in May 2014. A week later, state officials requested copies of sermons he had preached as a lay minister for the Seventh Day Adventist Church, according to First Liberty Institute, a legal organization that defends the religious freedom of Americans.

Thoughts?

[AUDub 11,206]

http://dailysignal.c...rgia-fired-him/

A public health official, who says he was fired by Georgia’s health agency for the content of his sermons, filed a lawsuit today against the state claiming religious discrimination.

Dr. Eric Walsh accepted a position as the Georgia Department of Public Health’s director for the northwest part of the state in May 2014. A week later, state officials requested copies of sermons he had preached as a lay minister for the Seventh Day Adventist Church, according to First Liberty Institute, a legal organization that defends the religious freedom of Americans.

Thoughts?

First, he was never fired. They withdrew his job offer. He was never even hired.

Second, he failed to disclose information during the hiring process. You have to disclose information they ask for. Period. End of story. Georgia was well within their rights to rescind the offer. During the process you can be eliminated for very simple things like this. Its a huge deal when you are applying for any position with the state and in medicine in general. He has to prove that his religious opinion was the only consideration in his offer being rescinded. Unless he has internal documents to prove that it will be very hard to prove his case, and I expect the suit to go in the garbage.

The fact that he thinks anyone in Georgia wouldn't hire him because of personal beliefs is silly. There are plenty of people in medicine who share his beliefs without repercussion. Disconcerting to me, however, that a doctor rejects the science of evolution. Silly.

[AURaptor 1,129]

Evolution has tangible evidence. Unlike other issues which are being force fed to the gullible public.

[AUDub 11,206]

Evolution gas tangible evidence. Unlike other issues which are being force fed to the gullible public.

It bothers me because it's a foundational science of his field. Being a biomed, essentially an electrical engineering/biophysics field, it would be like me rejecting electromagnetism.

[TitanTiger 20,544]

First, he was never fired. They withdrew his job offer. He was never even hired.

He had received an offer letter and accepted it. That sounds like a firing to me.

Second, he failed to disclose information during the hiring process. You have to disclose information they ask for. Period. End of story. Georgia was well within their rights to rescind the offer. During the process you can be eliminated for very simple things like this. Its a huge deal when you are applying for any position with the state and in medicine in general. He has to prove that his religious opinion was the only consideration in his offer being rescinded. Unless he has internal documents to prove that it will be very hard to prove his case, and I expect the suit to go in the garbage.

I think you're confusing his tenure in California. They said they terminated him because he didn't disclose that he had outside employment. But I don't think that's the case with Georgia.

He'd received an offer letter and it was only after requesting his sermons that GA terminated him.

The fact that he thinks anyone in Georgia wouldn't hire him because of personal beliefs is silly. There are plenty of people in medicine who share his beliefs without repercussion. Disconcerting to me, however, that a doctor rejects the science of evolution. Silly.

Given the timeline of how this occurred, it sure seems that way:

Dr. Eric Walsh accepted a position as the Georgia Department of Public Health’s director for the northwest part of the state in May 2014. A week later, state officials requested copies of sermons he had preached as a lay minister for the Seventh Day Adventist Church, according to First Liberty Institute, a legal organization that defends the religious freedom of Americans...

Government officials terminated Walsh the day after he provided his sermons to the state.

Also, given the content of the emails and voicemails that have been obtained, the "failed to disclose outside employment" sounds like a cover for the real reason - the content of his sermons and his beliefs:

In a redacted email from the State of Georgia, officials discuss how they will review the sermons.

Lee Rudd, director of human resources with Georgia’s Public Health Department, wrote in an email on May 14, 2014:

“OK … I have an assignment for several of us. We have to listen to his sermons on You Tube tonight. If we take a couple of hours each, then we should cover our bases.”

Dys told The Daily Signal that the state of Georgia “spent upwards of 10 hours dividing up sermons and reviewing them on state dollars, on state computers.” He said:

I think when we have a state dividing up sermons like that and nitpicking through line by line what a lay pastor has said in a sermon and then terminating him because of that, I think every American should be chilled to the core at that type of thing.

In a voicemail left for Walsh, the speaker says:

“Dr. Walsh, this is Dr. Patrick O’Neil and Mrs. Kate Phirman, our CFO here at the Department of Public Health in Georgia. Sorry that we have not been able to reach you by phone. We will be sending you a letter, so be on the lookout for that.”

After the message concludes, the caller does not hang up. Two voices can be heard in the voicemail recording, laughing and saying: “There’s no warm way to say it” and “You’re out.”

[Auburn4life 24]

Then why did the state workers do this,

Lee Rudd, director of human resources with Georgia’s Public Health Department, wrote in an email on May 14, 2014:

“OK … I have an assignment for several of us. We have to listen to his sermons on You Tube tonight. If we take a couple of hours each, then we should cover our bases.”

Dys told The Daily Signal that the state of Georgia “spent upwards of 10 hours dividing up sermons and reviewing them on state dollars, on state computers.”

and it wasn't until the state dept. received emails/calls from Health Initiative about him did they decide to look more into him and then rescinded their offer a week later after he accepted the position.

He probably won't win because it will be hard to prove, because they claim Walsh failed to disclose outside income while working in California. But this was probably just used as a way to legally terminate him, just the way it looks to me.

rejects the science of evolution

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

[TitanTiger 20,544]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

[aujeff11 6,243]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

[TitanTiger 20,544]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though. :)/>

So this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogenesis

[Strychnine 1,804]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though.

I imagine God has a sense of humor, and the young earth creationists keep it fed consistently.

[TitanTiger 20,544]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though. :)/>

So this?

https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Orthogenesis

Not familiar with that term. Another terms for it would be "evolutionary creationism."

More like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

http://biologos.org/common-questions/christianity-and-science/biologos-id-creationism

[TitanTiger 20,544]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though.

I imagine God has a sense of humor, and the young earth creationists keep it fed consistently.

I imagine all of us, from one end of the spectrum to the other, have given God frequent occasion to shake his head and chuckle.

[AUDub 11,206]

He had received an offer letter and accepted it. That sounds like a firing to me.

Dr. Walsh was extended a conditional offer of employment by DPH, subject to passing a routine background check.

During the background check process, DPH learned Walsh failed to disclose outside employment to his previous public health employer, which also was in violation of California law.

I think you're confusing his tenure in California. They said they terminated him because he didn't disclose that he had outside employment. But I don't think that's the case with Georgia.

He'd received an offer letter and it was only after requesting his sermons that GA terminated him.

Due to violation of both California state law and DPH policy, the offer to Dr. Walsh was rescinded. During his interview, Dr. Walsh disclosed his religious beliefs to DPH staff and indicated that he preached at his church in California. Dr. Walsh’s religious beliefs had nothing to do with the decision to withdraw the offer

Given the timeline of how this occurred, it sure seems that way:

Dr. Eric Walsh accepted a position as the Georgia Department of Public Health’s director for the northwest part of the state in May 2014. A week later, state officials requested copies of sermons he had preached as a lay minister for the Seventh Day Adventist Church, according to First Liberty Institute, a legal organization that defends the religious freedom of Americans...

Government officials terminated Walsh the day after he provided his sermons to the state.

Also, given the content of the emails and voicemails that have been obtained, the "failed to disclose outside employment" sounds like a cover for the real reason - the content of his sermons and his beliefs:

In a redacted email from the State of Georgia, officials discuss how they will review the sermons.

Lee Rudd, director of human resources with Georgia’s Public Health Department, wrote in an email on May 14, 2014:

“OK … I have an assignment for several of us. We have to listen to his sermons on You Tube tonight. If we take a couple of hours each, then we should cover our bases.”

Dys told The Daily Signal that the state of Georgia “spent upwards of 10 hours dividing up sermons and reviewing them on state dollars, on state computers.” He said:

I think when we have a state dividing up sermons like that and nitpicking through line by line what a lay pastor has said in a sermon and then terminating him because of that, I think every American should be chilled to the core at that type of thing.

In a voicemail left for Walsh, the speaker says:

“Dr. Walsh, this is Dr. Patrick O’Neil and Mrs. Kate Phirman, our CFO here at the Department of Public Health in Georgia. Sorry that we have not been able to reach you by phone. We will be sending you a letter, so be on the lookout for that.”

After the message concludes, the caller does not hang up. Two voices can be heard in the voicemail recording, laughing and saying: “There’s no warm way to say it” and “You’re out.”

I've seen these e-mails. It all boils down to this: If he failed to disclose something they asked for, then the why of it doesn't matter. They can legally withdraw the offer, no matter how much he screams he's being "fired" for his religion.

[AURaptor 1,129]

Evolution isn't a "belief ". It's a conclusion based on the known evidence. Viruses evolve all the time, which is why we keep having to alter the vaccinations.

[AUDub 11,206]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science?

*Ahem*

The E. coli long-term evolution experiment is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes in 12 initially identical populations of asexual Escherichia coli bacteria since 24 February 1988. The populations reached the milestone of 50,000 generations in February 2010 and 60,000 in April 2014.

Since the experiment's inception in 1988, Lenski and his colleagues have reported a wide array of genetic changes. Some changes occurred in all 12 populations and others have only appeared in one or a few populations. For example, all 12 populations experienced improvement in fitness that decelerated over time and some of populations evolved detrimental effects such as defects in DNA repair, causing mutator phenotypes. One of the significant adaptions occurred in one strain of E. coli. In general, this bacteria is known for not being able to use citrate in an aerobic environment as an energy source, even though it could use citrate under anaerobic conditions because it already has the machinery to process citrate. This strain, though ancestrally unable to do so initially, was able to transport citrate for use as an energy source after a duplication mutation that was involved in the gene for the citrate transporter protein used in anaerobic growth. Even though all the ancestors already had a complete citric acid cycle, and thus could metabolize citrate internally for energy during aerobic growth, none of the 12 populations had a transporter protein for citrate since the beginning, which was the only barrier to being able to use citrate for energy in oxygen-rich conditions. Earlier independent studies had already reported E. coli strains from agricultural or clinical settings that already had the ability to use citrate under aerobic conditions.

A genomic study was done to investigate the history of the adaption using clones to isolate the number of mutations needed to develop the trait. It concluded that multiple mutations (at least two or more) such as duplication mutations were needed to allow the transport of citrate for use in energy. For the trait to develop and stick in a population, it needed multiple mutations at three main phases: potentiation (makes a trait possible), actualization (makes the trait manifest), and refinement (makes it effective).^[5]

Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

That's not how evolution works.

[Grumps 3,705]

How are we defining evolution? Does evolution propose that a new species evolves from a current species? Do e. coli evolve into new species? Has anyone ever observed a new species being formed?

[aujeff11 6,243]

Why hasn't anyone observed evolution through observational science? Why aren't monkeys still evolving into humans?

I don't think it works like "monkeys evolving into humans."

And evolution takes place over thousand, even millions of years. How would one observe meaningful "live" changes of such a long process in the span of a career or even several careers?

You believe in evolution, Titan?

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though. :)/>

So this?

https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Orthogenesis

Not familiar with that term. Another terms for it would be "evolutionary creationism."

More like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution

http://biologos.org/common-questions/christianity-and-science/biologos-id-creationism

I may be wrong but I think Orthogenesis is a subfield of theistic evolution that believes that organisms evolve via a mysterious driving force.

So do you think Adam and Eve were of the primitive human species or maybe ape men?

[AUDub 11,206]

How are we defining evolution? Does evolution propose that a new species evolves from a current species? Do e. coli evolve into new species? Has anyone ever observed a new species being formed?

Ah, the old "micro" vs. "macro" canard. The rough equivalent of saying walking will take you from your kitchen to your living room but will not take you across the city.

[TitanTiger 20,544]

I may be wrong but I think Orthogenesis is a subfield of theistic evolution that believes that organisms evolve via a mysterious driving force.

So do you think Adam and Eve were of the primitive human species or maybe ape men?

I couldn't say for sure. I think whoever Adam and Eve were, they were capable of making moral choices.

Orthogenesis seems to be a particular explanation of how evolution occurs that could have some parallels, but isn't the same thing as evolutionary creationism. I don't think most adherents of EC would back orthogenesis.

[aujeff11 6,243]

I may be wrong but I think Orthogenesis is a subfield of theistic evolution that believes that organisms evolve via a mysterious driving force.

So do you think Adam and Eve were of the primitive human species or maybe ape men?

I couldn't say for sure. I think whoever Adam and Eve were, they were capable of making moral choices.

Orthogenesis seems to be a particular explanation of how evolution occurs that could have some parallels, but isn't the same thing as evolutionary creationism. I don't think most adherents of EC would back orthogenesis.

It seems that the belief of theistic evolution is so broad, with many having their own beliefs regarding it, that I often have a tons of questions of how the belief fits the bible. Do you think the earth was created with age? How do you reconcile the supposed age differences of the earth based on evolution's view( millions of years old) and creationism (thousands.)

[Strychnine 1,804]

I certainly don't have a major problem with it as a concept. Granted, I don't believe in a purely naturalistic, happenstance view of evolution. If there's a term for it, you might put me in the "theistic evolution" camp. I don't believe something came from nothing all on its own. I think it was made with a purpose and design to be able to become all this we see now. Perhaps it was even "guided" at critical junctures (or maybe it was created in the first place in such a way as to not need it to develop as it has).

If I stand before God one day and he shows me how the young earth creationists were right the whole time, I'm not going to argue with Him though.

I imagine God has a sense of humor, and the young earth creationists keep it fed consistently.

I imagine all of us, from one end of the spectrum to the other, have given God frequent occasion to shake his head and chuckle.

Well, yeah. But they're a really special brand of amusingly stupid.

[TitanTiger 20,544]

I may be wrong but I think Orthogenesis is a subfield of theistic evolution that believes that organisms evolve via a mysterious driving force.

So do you think Adam and Eve were of the primitive human species or maybe ape men?

I couldn't say for sure. I think whoever Adam and Eve were, they were capable of making moral choices.

Orthogenesis seems to be a particular explanation of how evolution occurs that could have some parallels, but isn't the same thing as evolutionary creationism. I don't think most adherents of EC would back orthogenesis.

It seems that the belief of theistic evolution is so broad, with many having their own beliefs regarding it, that I often have a tons of questions of how the belief fits the bible. Do you think the earth was created with age? How do you reconcile the supposed age differences of the earth based on evolution's view( millions of years old) and creationism (thousands.)

Well, even if I rejected evolution and held to one of the creationist views, I think the scientific explanation of the earth's age are basically accurate - millions of years old. So I would fall in the "old-earth creationist" camp in that case. I think there is enough ambiguity in the Hebrew language and the Genesis accounts to allow for that.

[AUDub 11,206]

It seems that the belief of theistic evolution is so broad, with many having their own beliefs regarding it, that I often have a tons of questions of how the belief fits the bible. Do you think the earth was created with age? How do you reconcile the supposed age differences of the earth based on evolution's view( millions of years old) and creationism (thousands.)

Evolution doesn't really have a "view" regarding the age of the earth. Different science. Geology vs. biology.

But the earth is 4,600,000,000 (billion) years old.

[aujeff11 6,243]

I may be wrong but I think Orthogenesis is a subfield of theistic evolution that believes that organisms evolve via a mysterious driving force.

So do you think Adam and Eve were of the primitive human species or maybe ape men?

I couldn't say for sure. I think whoever Adam and Eve were, they were capable of making moral choices.

Orthogenesis seems to be a particular explanation of how evolution occurs that could have some parallels, but isn't the same thing as evolutionary creationism. I don't think most adherents of EC would back orthogenesis.

It seems that the belief of theistic evolution is so broad, with many having their own beliefs regarding it, that I often have a tons of questions of how the belief fits the bible. Do you think the earth was created with age? How do you reconcile the supposed age differences of the earth based on evolution's view( millions of years old) and creationism (thousands.)

Well, even if I rejected evolution and held to one of the creationist views, I think the scientific explanation of the earth's age are basically accurate - millions of years old. So I would fall in the "old-earth creationist" camp in that case. I think there is enough ambiguity in the Hebrew language and the Genesis accounts to allow for that.

As a seeker of answers, the ambiguity part is what is frustrating.