Which type of nation are we?

[TexasTiger 13,017]

25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

25:32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

25:33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, 'Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

25:35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in.

25:36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.'

25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink?

25:38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you?

25:39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?'

25:40 "The King will answer them, 'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

25:41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

25:42 for I was hungry, and you didn't give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;

25:43 I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'

25:44 "Then they will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?'

25:45 "Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.'

25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

[Piglet 0]

Amen, Brother. I say we be good to one another.

[AURaptor 1,126]

There needs to be a post on this........why?

[TexasTiger 13,017]

There needs to be a post on this........why?

139969[/snapback]

Of all the posts, this is the one you question? Why? None of the posts are actually needed, are they?

As with any other post, discuss if you wish, ignore if you wish. Ain't freedom grand?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Here's the lyrics to a song that's been ringing in my head lately, and I think it fits perfectly with what you said above TexasTiger.:

I Am Jesus

Saw his old weathered fist

Holding on tight to that brown paper bag

Pressed it up to his lips

Took another sip in the rain

He was mumbling words

On the edge of a curb with his eyes to the ground

I would've walked on by

But I thought I heard him say...

(Chorus)

I am Jesus

I'm your mother, father

Sister, brother

Your son and daughter

You can pretend you don't hear Me

You can say I don't exist

But I am

I am Jesus

I admit at first I thought he was

Just some crazy old fool

'Til he carefully shifted his gaze

And looked up at me

I recalled an old phrase

From back in the days

As his desperate eyes sunk in

Something about whatever you do

To the least of these -- you do to Me

(Chorus)

Bridge:

There's no way

Could it be?

I don't know

Maybe he

Was some sort of homeless angel

With a message just for me

(Chorus)

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Here's the lyrics to a song that's been ringing in my head lately, and I think it fits perfectly with what you said above TexasTiger.:

I Am Jesus

Saw his old weathered fist

Holding on tight to that brown paper bag

Pressed it up to his lips

Took another sip in the rain

He was mumbling words

On the edge of a curb with his eyes to the ground

I would've walked on by

But I thought I heard him say...

(Chorus)

I am Jesus

I'm your mother, father

Sister, brother

Your son and daughter

You can pretend you don't hear Me

You can say I don't exist

But I am

I am Jesus

I admit at first I thought he was

Just some crazy old fool

'Til he carefully shifted his gaze

And looked up at me

I recalled an old phrase

From back in the days

As his desperate eyes sunk in

Something about whatever you do

To the least of these -- you do to Me

(Chorus)

Bridge:

There's no way

Could it be?

I don't know

Maybe he

Was some sort of homeless angel

With a message just for me

(Chorus)

140011[/snapback]

Certainly sounds like they may have been inspired by this scripture. Do you know the writer/recording artist?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Yeah actually, he's on my parent company's label, Spring Hill Music Group. His name is Scott Krippayne and the song is on his album Gentle Revolution that comes out later this month.

[DKW 86 7,440]

Tex, I agree totally with what you posted. The difference here is that I see no reason for govt intervention on this matter. If an individual is being chastised/chastened by God, should not the church be the first one there to pick him up?

IE. Castro uses this little trick with the Cuban kids. They are told to pray to God for a piece of candy. Of course none readily appears to them. They are then told to pray to Fidel Castro for candy. They are immediately given candy. The kids see Castro as their God.

The point here is that while I appreciate the efforts of govt largesse, the programs tend to end up "Enabling" the bad behavior that may have caused the problems in the first place.

If charity was church run, the services would be more closely monitored so as to not allow an enabling effect. I have worked with a Rescue Mission myself. I saw first hand the perversions of a non-controlled situation versus a controlled situation. In the RM, they get to hand out the cash to those there. They make them hand over the govt checks asap. That keeps the folks from buying $100s worth of beer/wine/drugs in just a few days.

Somedays we would have the well meaning bluehairs (old folks) come by and give out cash. The folks would immediately head for the nearest drug dealer/liquor store and have a relapse. Same with govt largesse.

We both have the same goals. I have just seen the govt screw it up bigtime when they try to fix a problem.

BTW, in the Judgment of Nations above, What will God's judgment of the US's abortion policy be? Be afraid, very afraid.

[AURaptor 1,126]

DKW -

Tex, I agree totally with what you posted. The difference here is that I see no reason for govt intervention on this matter. If an individual is being chastised/chastened by God, should not the church be the first one there to pick him up?

IE. Castro uses this little trick with the Cuban kids. They are told to pray to God for a piece of candy. Of course none readily appears to them. They are then told to pray to Fidel Castro for candy. They are immediately given candy. The kids see Castro as their God.

The point here is that while I appreciate the efforts of govt largesse, the programs tend to end up "Enabling" the bad behavior that may have caused the problems in the first place.

DKW painted the picture for me. Well done. I can't help but get the feeling that TexasTiger is trying to guilt us into thinking we as a PEOPLE aren't gracious or willing to help our fellow man. I know that we are. Perhaps I get this view from those on the Left ( like TexasTiger) who absurdly came out and ridiculed the Bush administration for not giving ENOUGH $ to the victims of the S.E. Asian tsunami. If I misinterpreted the intent of this thread, then never mind.

Americans have no problems helping others in need. However, I question the motives of those who would have us show such generosity by offering OTHER peoples money and support during times of duress , instead of offering their own.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Tex, I agree totally with what you posted. The difference here is that I see no reason for govt intervention on this matter. If an individual is being chastised/chastened by God, should not the church be the first one there to pick him up?

IE. Castro uses this little trick with the Cuban kids. They are told to pray to God for a piece of candy. Of course none readily appears to them. They are then told to pray to Fidel Castro for candy. They are immediately given candy. The kids see Castro as their God.

The point here is that while I appreciate the efforts of govt largesse, the programs tend to end up "Enabling" the bad behavior that may have caused the problems in the first place.

If charity was church run, the services would be more closely monitored so as to not allow an enabling effect. I have worked with a Rescue Mission myself. I saw first hand the perversions of a non-controlled situation versus a controlled situation. In the RM, they get to hand out the cash to those there. They make them hand over the govt checks asap. That keeps the folks from buying $100s worth of beer/wine/drugs in just a few days.

Somedays we would have the well meaning bluehairs (old folks) come by and give out cash. The folks would immediately head for the nearest drug dealer/liquor store and have a relapse. Same with govt largesse.

We both have the same goals. I have just seen the govt screw it up bigtime when they try to fix a problem.

BTW, in the Judgment of Nations above, What will God's judgment of the US's abortion policy be? Be afraid, very afraid.

140074[/snapback]

Tex, I agree totally with what you posted. The difference here is that I see no reason for govt intervention on this matter. If an individual is being chastised/chastened by God, should not the church be the first one there to pick him up?

…

So are you opposed to Bush’s federally funded “faith based initiatives?”

I believe nations have an obligation to take care of “the least of these.” It can happen in different ways. “Should not he church be the first one there to pick [them] up?” Matthew 25 suggests that. How often does that happen? We say we are a “Christian country” and point to higher rates of church attendance than our Western European allies, but does that translate into us doing a better job of taking care of the “least of these?” One could argue that if churches were doing their job in this regard, such government intervention would be unnecessary. I have no problem with Churches stepping up to the plate and relieving the need for government aid.

If charity was church run, the services would be more closely monitored so as to not allow an enabling effect. I have worked with a Rescue Mission myself. I saw first hand the perversions of a non-controlled situation versus a controlled situation. In the RM, they get to hand out the cash to those there. They make them hand over the govt checks asap. That keeps the folks from buying $100s worth of beer/wine/drugs in just a few days.

The church takes the “government checks asap?” Is that how they fund the program? If you don’t turn your check over, do you have to leave?

BTW, in the Judgment of Nations above, What will God's judgment of the US's abortion policy be? Be afraid, very afraid.

Your choice of smiling icon is interesting juxtaposed against he words “Be afraid, very afraid.” What exactly are you happy about?

I think God’s judgment will be more concerned with what we do as opposed to what the law allows us to do. I think he will be more concerned with man’s actions than his laws, which is why I think the Christian Right’s focus on changing laws instead of changing souls is woefully misplaced. A few years back, the Arthur Demoss Foundation had an ad campaign with the theme “Life: What a beautiful choice.” It didn’t appeal to fear and shame, but rather the best in us. This was more common in the evangelical movement of the 70s when I was growing up. We focused more on the power of God’s love than the sins of others. I still think that is the more powerful approach and the one most consistent with Christ’s teachings. Christ didn’t try to control what people did. He used moral suasion to encourage them to choose wisely.

How much do we as a nation value the children who are born? Which conservatives want to extend tax funded healthcare to children and their mothers who don’t have it?

These are the countries with the lowest infant mortality rates:

Rank Country Deaths per 1,000 live births (year)

1 Sweden 3.44 (2002 est.)

2 Iceland 3.53 (2002 est.)

3 Singapore 3.6 (2002 est.)

4 Finland 3.76 (2002 est.)

5 Japan 3.84 (2002 est.)

6 Norway 3.9 (2002 est.)

7 Andorra 4.07 (2002 est.)

8 Netherlands 4.31 (2002 est.)

9 Austria 4.39 (2002 est.)

10 France 4.41 (2002 est.)

11 Switzerland 4.42 (2002 est.)

12 Slovenia 4.47 (2002 est.)

13 Belgium 4.64 (2002 est.)

14 Germany 4.65 (2002 est.)

15 Luxembourg 4.71 (2002 est.)

16 Spain 4.85 (2002 est.)

17 Australia 4.9 (2002 est.)

18 Liechtenstein 4.92 (2002 est.)

19 Canada 4.95 (2002 est.)

20 Denmark 4.97 (2002 est.)

We are the richest country in the world and we can’t even crack the top twenty? We’ve been blessed with riches and what do we do with those riches? What do we value? Life? Children? Really?

We disagree on this, but I suspect the judgment will be harsher for our laws that actually lead us as a people to take the lives of others. God creates life and we decide we have the right to end it? How incredibly arrogant is that?

What nations are with us in this regard? Who are our death penalty allies?

In a recent year, 88% of the death penalty case occurred in five countries. The People's Republic of China (PRC) carried out 726 executions. Iran executed 108 people, the United States 65, Vietnam 64, and Saudi Arabia.

Only seven countries practice the death penalty for juveniles, that is criminals aged under 18 at the time of their crime. Nearly all actual executions for juvenile crime take place in the USA. Even China won’t do that. Who else will? The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, and Iran since 1990. Great company.

[Auburn85 432]

And........... how many juveniles do we execute a year?

[DKW 86 7,440]

Tex, You posted a bit on the Judgment of Nations, then, when we talk about it, you walk away.

I think the "least of these" includes Unborn Viable Babies. I think the US will be very harshly judged for it too. We slaughter 1.3M per year in Abortion Clinics. Totally innocent babies that have couples standing inline for them are simplyu sucked into the sink.

You want to judge the USA and others because we practiced the death penalty a whopping 65 times last year on criminals that have been convicted and have likely gone through 13+ years of appeals? Lets see, 1.3M vs 65, must be some of that new Liberal math to even do a comparison.

In the end, there are several Judgments: Salvation, Personal, Nations. I think you should remove the beam from your eye before you take up this conversation again.

So are you opposed to Bush’s federally funded “faith based initiatives?”

Support them totally.

“Should not he church be the first one there to pick [them] up?” Matthew 25 suggests that. How often does that happen?

I agree. We have people in church and without that have abdicated their responsibilities toward the poor, etc because they think govt largesse will handle it. BS! I think the Faith Based Init. is a perfect way for govt to support and the churches, synagogues, mosques to react.

The church takes the “government checks asap?” Is that how they fund the program? If you don’t turn your check over, do you have to leave?

No, but the incorporated Rescue Mission does take them or the folks hit the 3 day max and have to leave.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

My feelings are this: the church should step up and stop abdicating its God-given responsibility to take care of the poor and needy. Many churches either do this directly or contribute to charities that do. But they don't do it enough. The American church needs to get over the need to build bigger and better facilities for the sheep and get out there and pour that level of generosity toward the less fortunate.

And I'm talking about more than just food and stuff. Why don't more churches step up and provide low cost or free child care for low income families where there's a single mother or both parents have to work? What about setting up job training centers so people can get better paying jobs? How about building or subsidizing low cost or free clinics to help with the problem of affordable health care? I know some churches do some of these things, but so many (perhaps the majority) do not. They pour millions into foreign missions but neglect those in need just blocks or miles from their doors.

What about exhorting their members to adopt children so as to live out their pro-life convictions? Or asking their members to possibly sponsor a young single mother so her prenatal visits and after care are paid for so as not to push her toward an abortion?

What about putting money aside for scholarships for low income kids, encouraging them to keep their grades up and get a degree so they don't end up on welfare or at some crummy WalMart job paying $7 a hour?

This is just some of the stuff off the top of my head. I know there are shining examples of churches who do this kind of thing, but they are way too few compared to the number of churches that dot street corners in cities like Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery, et al. One church up here that I know of just built this huge, HUGE facility. Now, I'm not begruding them for expanding. The church was growing and their old place had no room to add on. But this new building is insane. And at one point, it was going to include an aquarium that would be built into the wall that would house tropical fish and such. That sucker was going to run about $40,000-50,000 dollars. Are you frickin' kidding me? What does a church need with at $40k aquarium in the lobby? NOTHING that's what. They ended up nixing it thank God, but I think the money just went into some other aspect of construction. Forty thousand dollars could buy 4-6 decent, reasonable, reliable cars to give to needy families that needed one to help mom or dad hold down a good paying job. I'm sure others could think of good things $40k could have done.

I'm getting so steamed because I just feel like we as Christians lament over how we're viewed in the media or by the average Joe on the street. But can you imagine how perceptions would change if we were known for how sacrificially we give of ourselves: our time, our money and resources, etc.? And while I understand the issues with government handling taking care of the poor and the dependency cycle and all that...the bottom line is someone has to help. We can't let people just starve and live in the streets. And if the church won't get out of its myopic view that the world revolves around it and its needs, then the gov't will step in. If we want that to change, we need to change.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Tex, You posted a bit on the Judgment of Nations, then, when we talk about it, you walk away.

I think the "least of these" includes Unborn Viable Babies. I think the US will be very harshly judged for it too. We slaughter 1.3M per year in Abortion Clinics. Totally innocent babies that have couples standing inline for them are simplyu sucked into the sink.

You want to judge the USA and others because we practiced the death penalty a whopping 65 times last year on criminals that have been convicted and have likely gone through 13+ years of appeals? Lets see, 1.3M vs 65, must be some of that new Liberal math to even do a comparison.

In the end, there are several Judgments: Salvation, Personal, Nations. I think you should remove the beam from your eye before you take up this conversation again.

So are you opposed to Bush’s federally funded “faith based initiatives?”

Support them totally.

“Should not he church be the first one there to pick [them] up?” Matthew 25 suggests that. How often does that happen?

I agree. We have people in church and without that have abdicated their responsibilities toward the poor, etc because they think govt largesse will handle it. BS! I think the Faith Based Init. is a perfect way for govt to support and the churches, synagogues, mosques to react.

The church takes the “government checks asap?” Is that how they fund the program? If you don’t turn your check over, do you have to leave?

No, but the incorporated Rescue Mission does take them or the folks hit the 3 day max and have to leave.

140455[/snapback]

Walk away? Actually I gave a thoughtful response.

"Beam in my eye?" That's your judgment of me. Actually, I posted a scripture and simply posed the question implicit in that scripture. Christ seems to be providing the measure by which we will be judged. Therefore, it seems like a matter worthy of discussion. People may disagree on how well we measure up, but why be threatened by the question?

The concept of a discussion seems to baffle you a bit. I have no desire to make you believe everything I believe. That doesn't necessarily make us polar opposites, though. I've never spoken in favor of abortion. I've never advocated it. In fact, in my response I spoke in favor of efforts to reduce the numbers by pointing to the "Life: What a beautiful choice" campaign.

The question is largely one of tactics. You seem to think enacting a law is the answer. It seems to me that the more Christ-like response is to focus our energy on saving souls rather than enacting legislation. Much of the Christian Right has become obsessed with man's law and focus their time and energy accordingly. That leaves less time, energy and focus for men's souls. I don't think we will be judged by the permissiveness of our laws, but rather by our actions. If Christians are successful, it really won't matter what our laws allow. People will choose their actions according to their faith, not due to fear of being punished by other men. Laws don't stop people from engaging in behaviour, they just allow man to provide human punishment for that behaviour. God will judge all individuals as he sees fit without our input. Christ didn't focus on Caesar's laws and I doubt he'd focus much on ours, either.

The death penalty matter is one of principle, not number. It is not individual behaviour for which that individual must answer, but rather our collective action as a people. It is a collective choice that defines us and what we value as a nation. It is the ultimate judgment and it is not ours to make. We can lock people up forever to protect ourselves from those who have demonstrated a lack of respect for the lives of others. That's being tough on crime. Killing is merely vengeful.

You don't believe in government intervention, but do favor the government paying churches to do what churches are charged by God with doing in the first place? Okay, but do you think that's consistent?

[DKW 86 7,440]

My feelings are this:  the church should step up and stop abdicating its God-given responsibility to take care of the poor and needy.  Many churches either do this directly or contribute to charities that do.  But they don't do it enough.  The American church needs to get over the need to build bigger and better facilities for the sheep and get out there and pour that level of generosity toward the less fortunate. 

And I'm talking about more than just food and stuff.  Why don't more churches step up and provide low cost or free child care for low income families where there's a single mother or both parents have to work?  What about setting up job training centers so people can get better paying jobs?  How about building or subsidizing low cost or free clinics to help with the problem of affordable health care?  I know some churches do some of these things, but so many (perhaps the majority) do not.  They pour millions into foreign missions but neglect those in need just blocks or miles from their doors.

What about exhorting their members to adopt children so as to live out their pro-life convictions?  Or asking their members to possibly sponsor a young single mother so her prenatal visits and after care are paid for so as not to push her toward an abortion?

What about putting money aside for scholarships for low income kids, encouraging them to keep their grades up and get a degree so they don't end up on welfare or at some crummy WalMart job paying $7 a hour?

This is just some of the stuff off the top of my head.  I know there are shining examples of churches who do this kind of thing, but they are way too few compared to the number of churches that dot street corners in cities like Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery, et al.  One church up here that I know of just built this huge, HUGE facility.  Now, I'm not begruding them for expanding.  The church was growing and their old place had no room to add on.  But this new building is insane.  And at one point, it was going to include an aquarium that would be built into the wall that would house tropical fish and such.  That sucker was going to run about $40,000-50,000 dollars.  Are you frickin' kidding me?  What does a church need with at $40k aquarium in the lobby?  NOTHING that's what.  They ended up nixing it thank God, but I think the money just went into some other aspect of construction.  Forty thousand dollars could buy 4-6 decent, reasonable, reliable cars to give to needy families that needed one to help mom or dad hold down a good paying job.  I'm sure others could think of good things $40k could have done.

I'm getting so steamed because I just feel like we as Christians lament over how we're viewed in the media or by the average Joe on the street.  But can you imagine how perceptions would change if we were known for how sacrificially we give of ourselves:  our time, our money and resources, etc.?  And while I understand the issues with government handling taking care of the poor and the dependency cycle and all that...the bottom line is someone has to help.  We can't let people just starve and live in the streets.  And if the church won't get out of its myopic view that the world revolves around it and its needs, then the gov't will step in.  If we want that to change, we need to change.

140466[/snapback]

[DKW 86 7,440]

You seem to think enacting a law is the answer

Tex like I said, You do not answer the question and after all this, have gotten it 100% wrong! You are not even on the same page I am as to my opinion. Sometimes buddy, I wonder if you dont judge everyone by some crazed Lib theology.

So far you have not gotten anything I, or Titan, have said right. I have not said one word about a law of any kind in this thread. I am almost totally opposed to a "Law or govt" solution.

I say that govt largesse is ONE OF MANY answers and is usually the poorest implemented and poorest run and most expensive answer out there.

The death penalty matter is one of principle, not number. It is not individual behaviour for which that individual must answer, but rather our collective action as a people. It is a collective choice that defines us and what we value as a nation. It is the ultimate judgment and it is not ours to make. We can lock people up forever to protect ourselves from those who have demonstrated a lack of respect for the lives of others. That's being tough on crime. Killing is merely vengeful.

Lord said "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's." He was willing unto his own death. Death is the prescribed solution in the OT and NT.

Tex, being forgiven has never been the same as being punished. Gary Bowers knew he was forgiven but yet ACCEPTED his death by firing squad. He actually demanded it and refused any appeals. Same for many others. Tex, this Death Penalty thing is such a non-issue on so many levels. You Libs are worried about "principles" only when they are marginal at best. What about Clinton and his refusal to be held at the same level as Paula Jones? We do not have Royalty in this country. Everyman is equal to everyman in the courtroom. Why did Clinton think himself above the law in committing perjury? Where are the Lib Principles there? Nowhere to be found.

Where are the Lib Principles on Abortion? Nowhere to be found. We have Birth Control that is now 99.3% effective and should have no logical need for Abortion anymore. Why do we slaughter 1.3M per year then? Responsibility! We are a nation that refuses to take any personal responsibility. We are at once generally brain dead and irresponsible for our own actions. We drop hot coffe in our laps and blame Mc Donalds and Libs cheer! Greedy Corporate types fianlly get their due! We smoke cigarettes fro 20-30 years and then blame the manufacturers. And the Libs Cheer! Greedy Big Tobacco gets their ciomeuppance. Hell Tex, stupid irresponsible people acting stupid and iresponsible is the norm...and the Liberals Cheer when the courts blame someone else for our actions.

You don't believe in government intervention, but do favor the government paying churches to do what churches are charged by God with doing in the first place? Okay, but do you think that's consistent?

Look Tex, if poor churches in Appalachia or in very poor urban araes need outside funds to properly minister to the needy, then I say lets use the Fed Govt to fund the work. Think about it. The overall effect is that we can reach with much lower facilities costs, (the churches are likely paid for), and can reach every community instead into just a very few. Faith Based Init. work on so many levels in so many ways. I think the real problem is that the Libs just cannot get the idea that a church can actually do some good. They are so OPPOSED to Christian, Muslim, Jewish Faiths that they kneejerk away from real answers that would be well run, productive, low cost, etc.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

You seem to think enacting a law is the answer

Tex like I said, You do not answer the question and after all this, have gotten it 100% wrong! You are not even on the same page I am as to my opinion. Sometimes buddy, I wonder if you dont judge everyone by some crazed Lib theology.

So far you have not gotten anything I, or Titan, have said right. I have not said one word about a law of any kind in this thread. I am almost totally opposed to a "Law or govt" solution.

140618[/snapback]

So you're not interested in changing any laws? Okay, I thought you wanted a law outlawing abortion. My bad. Not sure where I got that.

I didn't know you spoke for Titan. I think I have a pretty good sense on where he and I agree and disagree and I respect his positions, which are obviously arrived at after considerable thought. I've agreed with everything he has said on this thread. I don't expect that he has agreed with everything I've said, but that's okay. I do believe he understands what I've said much better than you seem to, whether he agrees with it or not.

You're right about at least one thing, although we may disagree on the reasons for it. It is rare for the two of us to have a worthwhile discussion. From my perspective, you are more interested in giving me an eyepoke than having a discussion, but I've seen enough to know that isn't personal to me. So why waste our time any further?

Take care, brother.

[Auburn85 432]

Actually there is a law making partial-birth abortion illegal

It's a start

Government should be smaller, not bigger

The bigger it is, more of paycheck is taking away.

I think something like over half of our checks go to the government (state, local,etc..

How much in taxes is enough?

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Let me clarify what I'm saying. I do think that God has charged the church with the responsibility to take care of the poor, the hungry, the needy, the widow, the orphan. And I think we're doing a crappy job of it.

Juxtaposed with this is the predominant belief in many American Christians that the government should scale back social programs because they are inefficient, foster dependency, don't have strict enough requirements, are rife with waste, fraud and abuse, etc.

My gripe is that until followers of Christ take His charge to us seriously enough to sacrifice things they don't need and that don't matter, until they press their pastors and church leaders and hold their feet to the fire on better priorities on how tithes and offerings are utilized, they have absolutely no right to piss and moan about how the government is doing it. Someone has to do it. The only thing more sickening than watching the gov't do it inefficiently or whatever is watching people go starving or without other basic needs, stuck in a rut of being unable to get work because they can't afford child care or some other hindrance in a country as properous as ours. We as Americans have so much we don't need it would be immoral to ignore the problem while we buy more "stuff".

So the way I see it, I'm ok with the gov't handling this for now. I can't see Jesus calling for an end to gov't help when His children aren't stepping up to the plate. The answer is not to fight gov't programs then expect the church to fill in the gap. We must step up first. Give generously, creatively, and sacrificially and pour into the lives of people until it becomes obvious that the church IS doing it better than gov't ever has or ever could. Then and only then do you have the clout to get ineffective and inefficient gov't programs dismantled. Until then, you just sound cold and heartless because you're all complaint and no solution.

[DKW 86 7,440]

Ask my kids, my wife, my church. I want and work to be part of the solution.

I truly believe that it is a church imperative to LEAD. Govt has turned out to be an anesthetic to the Church. We have lost our will and zeal to aid the poor by and large. Govt Largesse started out as a noble project that has been and is being run into the ground. Titan and I are very close on this issue.

I take exception to the govt only answer. They dump money into the laps of the poor expecting them to magically be better and standup and applaud. What you really get is a junkie on a 2-3 day binge as soon as the check comes in. That is helping NO ONE and hurting the Junkie, wasting our money. I worked with a Professor at UA that wrote extensively about govt programs. He found that only .28 cents on the dollar got to ADC recipients. No one anywhere thinks that is an efficiently run business. Imagine if we could knock that number ariound some, say to .80-.90 to the folks who need it. We would not need more taxes, we would just get more for our money.

The govt cannot be in every city town neighborhood. We would not want them there and the facilities costs alone would kill the benefits of the programs.

FBIs are a great way to utilize empty building space 5 days a week and help the poor.

BTW, Since Abortion rights were court mandated there is no law to change. I want a resposible population. Then there would not be need for any laws about abortion etc.

[Auburn85 432]

Take education for example: We have 67 counties, but 128 superintendents. Assistant pricipals, assistant superintendents, assisstant assistants.

Once all this is paid, there's hardly anything left to spend on the students.

Montgomery County superintendent makes aroung 160 thousand. That's about 4 or 5 teachers pay.

Will she substitute a class, will she drive a bus?

Paul Hubbard of the AEA makes more than the governor. He makes around $300,000.

But he's also the one trying to get taxes raised for the chilledren. Why doesn't he take a pay cut. I know he's not a state employee, but he could set a good example by taking a pay cut.

Nancy Worley decided she'd go ahead and buy an EXPEDITION even though the state is going through financial strain. She couldn't get a regular one, she had to get an Eddie Bauer version.

During legislative session, which happens for just a few days out of the year, some legislators decided to go play golf in some kind of tournament or something.

I would have voted for Amendment 1 if I know that Alabama government is accountable, but it's not.

I'm all for helping the fellow man and the children.

It would be nice for every AMERICAN to have health insurance, but I don't feel obligated to pay for a crack head's destructive behavior. I'm all for rehab, but some will constantly be in and out of the hospital from o.d. and drug fights.

And the way the welefare program is setup, it pretty much discourages a mother to go to work. It actually encourages a mother to not work. And I'm not talking about all mothers, but this is how the system is setup.

Congress looked real good a couple of years ao, voting themselves a raise.

Montgomery Sales tax is 10%.

An occupational tax was proposed a couple of years ago. Tell me, federal , state already take out of our checks.

Yet, the city wants some too!? The occupational tax has to be the most immoral tax out there.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Yeah actually, he's on my parent company's label, Spring Hill Music Group.  His name is Scott Krippayne and the song is on his album Gentle Revolution that comes out later this month.

140019[/snapback]

Are you a musician? I went to the website and heard the clip of this song. I like his sound.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Yeah actually, he's on my parent company's label, Spring Hill Music Group.  His name is Scott Krippayne and the song is on his album Gentle Revolution that comes out later this month.

140019[/snapback]

Are you a musician? I went to the website and heard the clip of this song. I like his sound.

140832[/snapback]

No. I never could grasp how to read music. I used to sing. Led worship for the youth group back home for a while. But I can't play anything. I work in marketing for a division of Spring Hill that sells music to gift shops and specialty stores.

[tiger88 934]

The big churches are too busy buying multi million dollar jets, 1000+ dollar suits and dresses, and building unnecessarily extravagant facilities to give more money to worthy causes. As they see it there is no more worthy cause than THEMSELVES.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Here's another song that hits home to me on this subject:

Jesus

When we love the least

When we love the weak

When we love these

We love Jesus

Jesus brings a meal for tips

Jesus trying hard to quit

Jesus raising two alone

Jesus drives a heavy load

When we love the least

When we love the weak

When we love these

We love Jesus

Jesus with worn wrinkled hands

Jesus sows a patch of land

Jesus hides a tattooed arm

Jesus keeping dinner warm

When we love the least

When we love the weak

When we love these

We love Jesus

Jesus waves a foreign flag

Jesus wrings a washing rag

Jesus leans on prison bars

Jesus swinging in my yard

When we love the least

When we love the weak

When we love these

We love Jesus

Interestingly, the original lyric was "Jesus turns another trick" instead of "Jesus brings a meal for tips", point being that when you take Christ's words to heart about "whenever you do this to the least of these, you do it to Me", you realize that opportunities to see Jesus and minister to Him are bumping into you all over the place. But it's so much easier to see Jesus in the faces of our children, or in famous Christians like Mother Teresa, or in people we know and love than it is to see Jesus when we see a prostitute, or a convict, or someone doing "menial" jobs, or a foreign soldier. Yet, this is what Jesus tells us.

The "turns another trick" line was a little too hot for Christian retailers, so it ended up being rewritten because while the writer loved the imagery (and still does), the point of the song could still be made without it and he didn't want the message to not be heard at all because of the jitters of a few gatekeepers. Sad but true.